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Voting third party this time around..

LikeAnOceanLikeAnOcean Posts: 7,718
edited June 2008 in A Moving Train
This question is for people with liberal views..

How important is the war in Iraq to you?

Obama will end it. McCain will have it continue..

Is it worth taking a vote away from Obama to vote with your heart?.. this time around in particular.

Will you sell your soul to end the war?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    I don't think Obama will end the war...and I have stated this on numerous occasions.

    http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=280132
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    LikeAnOcean wrote:
    This question is for people with liberal views..

    How important is the war in Iraq to you?

    Obama will end it. McCain will have it continue..

    Is it worth taking a vote away from Obama to vote with your heart?.. this time around in particular.

    Will you sell your soul to end the war?
    Can you explain to me how someone sells their soul by being true to it?
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    angelica wrote:
    Can you explain to me how someone sells their soul by being true to it?


    Angelica, I'm starting to think too many people don't even know what their heart and soul is anymore....they are too busy shutting it up and ignoring it in order to continue on scrutinizing their life away.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • LikeAnOceanLikeAnOcean Posts: 7,718
    angelica wrote:
    Can you explain to me how someone sells their soul by being true to it?
    I'm saying are you willing to give up your strong third party belief to vote for someone you don't agree with but is the best chance for ending the war.
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    I think many of us voting for someone other than the establishment candidates don't believe that Obama will actually end the war. I would actually like to see some interviews or speeches where he has specifically claimed to do so.
  • AbuskedtiAbuskedti Posts: 1,917
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I don't think Obama will end the war...and I have stated this on numerous occasions.

    http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=280132

    I believe he will work hard to end it. He is stuck in the American political system and now is working to get elected President. It is sad, but necessary.

    I don't believe he will be on campaign after elected like our current president.
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    LikeAnOcean wrote:
    I'm saying are you willing to give up your strong third party belief to vote for someone you don't agree with but is the best chance for ending the war.
    If you are asking if I will give up my soul in order to gain power in the world, no, I would not/will not do it. It's not power. It's the illusion of power you refer to.

    It's remaining out of touch with one's actual power to create the real change that is necessary. And it's the underlying problem here, that's continually perpetuated by those who by being out of touch with their power act out that powerlessness with self-fulfilling prophecies.

    This is the second time on the board that I have witnessed someone suggesting disconnecting from one's integrity and inherent birthright balance, in order to try and inauthentically be something one is not in order to manipulate world events. It is throwing fuel on the existing fire. I personally know that that never works. I realize those who can understand this will be few and far between. And that's tough for me to deal with. And yet the actual potency of integrity I live in each day is brilliant and stunning, even to my own mesmerized eyes. And the visions and understandings brought about by authentic power allow me to continue to understand the glory of what I can do and am doing.

    It allows me the gift of seeing beyond the illusions and to be authentically powerful, and to do what I'm meant to do. It's about accepting where my power is, and where it is not.

    For the record, I'm not American. I don't and wouldn't vote third party (as far as I can imagine) because I wouldn't be able to support the very system as it is, because I no longer believe in such systems. My focus is on creating new schools of thought and systems beyond the ones that are falling away due to self-destruct and maladaptation.

    Plus, I'm on board with what Commy and Abook say. I feel people are falling for the rhetoric of a politician (Obama) and are unable to actually discern the truth that is evident beyond such words, at this time.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    Abuskedti wrote:
    I believe he will work hard to end it. He is stuck in the American political system and now is working to get elected President. It is sad, but necessary.

    I don't believe he will be on campaign after elected like our current president.


    What makes you think he will end it?

    I'm not comfortable with accepting or hoping that these politicians are lying to gain power. That speaks to what kind of person they are thus the horrid presidents we've had
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Mukluk4Mukluk4 Posts: 22
    This is exactly why the US version of Democracy has failed....

    You are voting AGAINST someone (McCain), instead of voting FOR someone.

    I'm sure Thomas Jefferson is rolling over in his grave knowing thousands if not millions of people will not vote for Nader because of the threat of McCain winning and not because they don't agree with his stances
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    Mukluk4 wrote:
    This is exactly why the US version of Democracy has failed....

    You are voting AGAINST someone (McCain), instead of voting FOR someone.

    I'm sure Thomas Jefferson is rolling over in his grave knowing thousands if not millions of people will not vote for Nader because of the threat of McCain winning and not because they don't agree with his stances

    Thank you! :)
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    What makes you think he will end it?

    I'm not comfortable with accepting or hoping that these politicians are lying to gain power. That speaks to what kind of person they are thus the horrid presidents we've had
    Then if/when Obama gets in power, and he makes horrible decisions, because it'll be the state of things (very, very hard radical decisions need to be made in order for people's dreams to come true), people will say he's between a rock and a hard place...like in the moving-the-Muslims-thread. He can't help his lies and bad decision making - he's choosing the lesser of the two evils.

    They don't realize they are buying a dream right now and that's not what they will be getting. The are experiencing their own hope. The outcome will be more of what the general mindsets right now are about...war/power/killing, etc.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Mukluk4 wrote:
    This is exactly why the US version of Democracy has failed....

    You are voting AGAINST someone (McCain), instead of voting FOR someone.

    I'm sure Thomas Jefferson is rolling over in his grave knowing thousands if not millions of people will not vote for Nader because of the threat of McCain winning and not because they don't agree with his stances
    So true! People have no idea what their own ideals are anymore, they've compromised themselves out of contact with them for so long...
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • AbuskedtiAbuskedti Posts: 1,917
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    What makes you think he will end it?

    I'm not comfortable with accepting or hoping that these politicians are lying to gain power. That speaks to what kind of person they are thus the horrid presidents we've had

    yes, that is how it starts...

    I guess I have nothing to go on.. just a feeling.

    Our political system stinks... the voters are forced to play politics. Ralph Nader will be a great president in alot of way. though he will have trouble in others. but I do know the next president will be either Obama or McCain. Obama is something different... and at this point nothing much more than that. But to me that is at least a move in the right direction. Though I have seen nothing to make me believe he has the strength to be a president and resist the forces of politics .. it is a heavy force that wears you down.

    and I have no idea what we can do about it.
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    Abuskedti wrote:
    yes, that is how it starts...

    I guess I have nothing to go on.. just a feeling.

    Our political system stinks... the voters are forced to play politics. Ralph Nader will be a great president in alot of way. though he will have trouble in others. but I do know the next president will be either Obama or McCain. Obama is something different... and at this point nothing much more than that. But to me that is at least a move in the right direction. Though I have seen nothing to make me believe he has the strength to be a president and resist the forces of politics .. it is a heavy force that wears you down.

    and I have no idea what we can do about it.


    We can stop being complacent and putting up with it...it's our democracy.

    I guess we will have to disagree about Obama, though...I don't see anything different about him. He's just better at selling himself and pulling the heart strings based on words and not actions. I haven't seen any accomplishments from him that warrent the kind of praise he receives.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    angelica wrote:
    Then if/when Obama gets in power, and he makes horrible decisions, because it'll be the state of things (very, very hard radical decisions need to be made in order for people's dreams to come true), people will say he's between a rock and a hard place...like in the moving-the-Muslims-thread. He can't help his lies and bad decision making - he's choosing the lesser of the two evils.

    They don't realize they are buying a dream right now and that's not what they will be getting. The are experiencing their own hope. The outcome will be more of what the general mindsets right now are about...war/power/killing, etc.


    Very well said!

    And they fail to realize that George W Bush supporters have been doing the same thing all along...removing all blame and saying he's doing what he has to.

    It's as plain as day to me.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Very well said!

    And they fail to realize that George W Bush supporters have been doing the same thing all along...removing all blame and saying he's doing what he has to.

    It's as plain as day to me.
    Yep, me too.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    obama can't end the war as the democratic party nominee
  • blackredyellowblackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    polaris wrote:
    obama can't end the war as the democratic party nominee


    Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong... But I see a slow withdrawal as about the only way to get it done... I could be right or wrong on that as well.

    But what I do know, is that maybe besides ending the war, someone like Nader as president won't be able to get ANYTHING domestically done with congress in place as it is... Change from the top will never work in our political system, if anything it will set back change because an independent presidency will be in constant gridlock with congress, and will enable everyone to reference that failed term anytime a third party candidate wants to make a run.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    blackredyellow wrote:
    Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong... But I see a slow withdrawal as about the only way to get it done... I could be right or wrong on that as well.

    But what I do know, is that maybe besides ending the war, someone like Nader as president won't be able to get ANYTHING domestically done with congress in place as it is... Change from the top will never work in our political system, if anything it will set back change because an independent presidency will be in constant gridlock with congress, and will enable everyone to reference that failed term anytime a third party candidate wants to make a run.

    i would have the same assessment as you however, an ineffective congress would at the very least show how inept and corrupt the system is ... right now, people think it's a matter of changing a few faces but the reality is that there needs to be a complete overhaul ... as unlikely as Nader becoming president is - at the end of the day, it's not maintaining the status quo ...
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    Mukluk4 wrote:
    This is exactly why the US version of Democracy has failed....

    You are voting AGAINST someone (McCain), instead of voting FOR someone.

    I'm sure Thomas Jefferson is rolling over in his grave knowing thousands if not millions of people will not vote for Nader because of the threat of McCain winning and not because they don't agree with his stances
    Actually, if Thomas Jefferson rose from the grave to witness this election season, the first thing out of his mouth would likely be "what in the hell is that n*bleep* doing up there on stage?"

    And I say this as someone who actually admires the Founding Fathers -faults and all.
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    blackredyellow wrote:
    Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong... But I see a slow withdrawal as about the only way to get it done... I could be right or wrong on that as well.

    But what I do know, is that maybe besides ending the war, someone like Nader as president won't be able to get ANYTHING domestically done with congress in place as it is... Change from the top will never work in our political system, if anything it will set back change because an independent presidency will be in constant gridlock with congress, and will enable everyone to reference that failed term anytime a third party candidate wants to make a run.
    Exactly. Put Nader in the White House, and we'll see just how much real power Presidents actually have.
  • blackredyellowblackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    polaris wrote:
    i would have the same assessment as you however, an ineffective congress would at the very least show how inept and corrupt the system is ... right now, people think it's a matter of changing a few faces but the reality is that there needs to be a complete overhaul ... as unlikely as Nader becoming president is - at the end of the day, it's not maintaining the status quo ...

    But realistically, who do you think will look more ineffective to the general public? Their congress that they have always had, but accepted a level of incompetence, or a new type of president who came in and then everything shut down?

    I agree that it needs a complete overhaul, but not enough people pay enough attention to demand it.... and as the ingrained two party system has shown us, people don't really want change... they say they do, but most go along how they've been going along for years.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    blackredyellow wrote:
    But realistically, who do you think will look more ineffective to the general public? Their congress that they have always had, but accepted a level of incompetence, or a new type of president who came in and then everything shut down?

    I agree that it needs a complete overhaul, but not enough people pay enough attention to demand it.... and if the ingrained two party system has shown us, people don't really want change... they say they do, but most go along how they've been going along for years.

    i am of the belief it has to get a whole lot worse before it can get better

    people ultimately have to respect the notion of democracy and the capacity and freedom to vote and hold people accountable ... accepting systems that are inherently faulty simply because that's the way it is - is what keeps anything from happening ...
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    RainDog wrote:
    Exactly. Put Nader in the White House, and we'll see just how much real power Presidents actually have.

    and maybe expose how corrupt congress really is
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    polaris wrote:
    and maybe expose how corrupt congress really is
    It might expose how corrupt everyone else's congressmen really are, but mine are above reproach.

    (line added as argument - not as actual opinion of my congressmen)
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    RainDog wrote:
    It might expose how corrupt everyone else's congressmen really are, but mine are above reproach.

    (line added as argument - not as actual opinion of my congressmen)

    well ... that would be an accomplishment well worth the grief ...
  • LikeAnOceanLikeAnOcean Posts: 7,718
    RainDog wrote:
    Actually, if Thomas Jefferson rose from the grave to witness this election season, the first thing out of his mouth would likely be "what in the hell is that n*bleep* doing up there on stage?"

    And I say this as someone who actually admires the Founding Fathers -faults and all.
    Haha! So true... Didn't Jefferson own slaves? Yeah, that guy wasn't corrupt. Not at all. :rolleyes:
  • AbuskedtiAbuskedti Posts: 1,917
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    We can stop being complacent and putting up with it...it's our democracy.

    I guess we will have to disagree about Obama, though...I don't see anything different about him. He's just better at selling himself and pulling the heart strings based on words and not actions. I haven't seen any accomplishments from him that warrent the kind of praise he receives.

    You know I love you and respect what you are saying and trying to do. You know there is absolutely no way Nader will win the presidency. I think we need to boycott the election. the misinformation that is permitted has killed our democracy. I feel participation in it suggests we approve.
  • VictoryGinVictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    RainDog wrote:
    Actually, if Thomas Jefferson rose from the grave to witness this election season, the first thing out of his mouth would likely be "what in the hell is that n*bleep* doing up there on stage?"

    And I say this as someone who actually admires the Founding Fathers -faults and all.

    or maybe he'd say, 'hey! is that my son?'

    did you see hbo's 'john adams'? thomas jefferson, *hearts*
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    VictoryGin wrote:
    or maybe he'd say, 'hey! is that my son?'

    did you see hbo's 'john adams'? thomas jefferson, *hearts*
    No, and I have HBO too. It was just never on when I was watching TV. I heard it was good, though. Did you see it?
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