What pushes people to do this?
LikeAnOcean
Posts: 7,718
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/15/iraq.slaying.ap/index.html
I mean, I can understand one person going over the edge and loosing their mind, but these fuckers all planned this!!! These animals!!! I would have risked my own life to stop these people from what they did had they been my fellow troops, but how the fuck to they all come to an agreement that its ok to rape and kill!!!
I mean, I can understand one person going over the edge and loosing their mind, but these fuckers all planned this!!! These animals!!! I would have risked my own life to stop these people from what they did had they been my fellow troops, but how the fuck to they all come to an agreement that its ok to rape and kill!!!
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from my window to yours
We have no right to even know this stuff happens, let alone discuss it.
Oh, wait. Sorry. I thought it was still campaign season.
This shit is just plain sick. I hope every single one of these guys rots in prision for the rest of their lives. Of course, it begs the question, how much of this stuff goes on that we don't know about?
EDIT: and wtf? i hope people of other nations don't make assumptions about our people based on this isolated incident,...
~Ron Burgundy
That was murder in a war. Sadly it's nothing new, I remember a Staff Sergeant raping and killing a little girl in Kosovo back in the late 90's or something I think. I remember I escorted a chaplain to the familys home on the anniversary a couple years after the fact. When the right amount of dipshits get together anywhere, something terrible happens. With any luck, these guys will fry.
and when you see your buddies getting blown to bits it has to affect you. I'm in no way marginalizing what these soldiers did...they need to pay for their actions...but one has to wonder if they never went to war...would they have committed this type of crime. I'm thinking probably not. So..put partial blame on the war and how it is truely evil and should be the very last option. Not like what happened with Iraq.....oh never mind the elections are over.....scrap the last sentence. (-;
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
the correlation of my post and yours. My point again...maybe a little clearer...the human mind will be affected when it see's death and violence and this death and violence will have an affect on behavior. Again I in no way condone or justify this behavior.
Pretty funny, the upside down phones the best.
Statistically compare the number of soldiers involved here and other cases to the amount of fucked up civilians out there. It's a high profile case, it's not the norm buddy.
That depends on what you mean by "under the barrel". Our military does not hire convicted felons. So, what then would you mean by "under the barrel"?
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
i didn't say it was the norm...
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i mean ppl they wouldn't normally let in, at least not let in until they had such trouble getting their enlistment quotas.
what i meant by under the barel was from the saying 'they sure scraped the bottom of the barrel for that guy' meaning he was not a good choice, it was a play on that
they may not take 'felons' but...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/10/01/ING42LCIGK1.DTL
In February, the Baltimore Sun wrote that there was "a significant increase in the number of recruits with what the Army terms 'serious criminal misconduct' in their background" -- a category that included "aggravated assault, robbery, vehicular manslaughter, receiving stolen property and making terrorist threats." From 2004 to 2005, the number of those recruits rose by more than 54 percent, while alcohol and illegal drug waivers, reversing a four-year decline, increased by more than 13 percent.
In June, the Chicago Sun-Times reported that, under pressure to fill the ranks, the Army had been allowing into its ranks increasing numbers of "recruits convicted of misdemeanor crimes, according to experts and military records." In fact, as the military's own data indicated, "the percentage of recruits entering the Army with waivers for misdemeanors and medical problems has more than doubled since 2001."
"We're looking for high school graduates with no more than one felony on their record," one recruiter said.
The Army has even looked behind prison bars for fill-in recruits -- in one reported case, they went to a "youth prison" in Ogden, Utah.
Law enforcement officials report that the military is now "allowing more applicants with gang tattoos," the Chicago Sun-Times reports, "because they are under the gun to keep enlistment up." They also note that "gang activity maybe rising among soldiers." The paper was provided with "photos of military buildings and equipment in Iraq that were vandalized with graffiti of gangs based in Chicago, Los Angeles and other cities."
In July, a study by the Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks racist and right-wing militia groups, found that because of pressing manpower concerns, "large numbers of neo-Nazis and skinhead extremists" are now serving in the military. "Recruiters are knowingly allowing neo-Nazis and white supremacists to join the armed forces, and commanders don't remove them from the military even after we positively identify them as extremists or gang members," said Scott Barfield, a Defense Department investigator quoted in the report.
The New York Times noted that the neo-Nazi magazine Resistance is actually recruiting for the U.S. military, urging "skinheads to join the Army and insist on being assigned to light infantry units." As the magazine explained, "The coming race war and the ethnic cleansing to follow will be very much an infantryman's war. ... It will be house-to-house ... until your town or city is cleared and the alien races are driven into the countryside where they can be hunted down and 'cleansed.' "
Little wonder that Aryan Nation graffiti is now apparently competing for space with American inner-city gang graffiti in Iraq.
that is what i mean by 'digging under the barrel'
as for the felony thing...that is untrue
from the army's own website:
http://www.army.com/resources/item/2150
Can I Join the Army with a Felony?
All branches of the military are different when it comes to recruiting standards, but they all have regulations regarding felonies. The military maintains a high "moral" standard for recruits and is the basis for not allowing most felonies. If the felony occurred when you were a juvenile you have a better chance of getting in the military but if the felony occurred as an adult you may have a hard time getting in, if at all. In either case it all comes down to the type of offense and how long ago it was.
...the Army has its own list of what it considers to be a felony.
there's also been articles about the use of waivers for felons, even ppl convicted of drug charges, to allow them into the military.
in fact:
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/7381
According to statistics provided to Salon by the office of the assistant secretary of defense for public affairs, the Army said that 17 percent (21,880 new soldiers) of its 2005 recruits were admitted under waivers. Put another way, more soldiers than are in an entire infantry division entered the Army in 2005 without meeting normal standards. This use of waivers represents a 42 percent increase since the pre-Iraq year of 2000. (All annual figures used in this article are based on the government's fiscal year, which runs from Oct. 1 to Sept. 30. So fiscal year 2006 began Oct. 1, 2005.)
In fact, even the already high rate of 17 percent underestimates the use of waivers, as the Pentagon combined the Army's figures with the lower ones for reserve forces to dilute the apparent percentage. Equally significant is the Army's currently liberal use of "moral waivers," loosely defined as criminal offenses. Officially, the Pentagon states that most waivers issued on moral grounds are for minor infractions like traffic tickets. Yet documents obtained by Salon show that many of the offenses are more serious and include drunken driving and domestic abuse.
and who'd think 2 cons would make my point?
"The more of those people you take, the more problems you are going to have and the less effective they are going to be," said Lawrence J. Korb, an assistant secretary of defense under Reagan and a senior fellow at the progressive Center for American Progress. "This is another way you are lowering your standards to meet your goals." Retired Lt. Gen. William E. Odom, who was the Army's chief intelligence officer from 1981 to 1985, also called the increase in waivers "disturbing."
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
*no offense intended towards the numerous upstanding males who are horrified by the idea of assaulting and or raping a child or woman.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
but why let a few rotten apples damage the image of the army? it only happend once right?
to be livin here today.
‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom,
and they can’t take that away.
And I’m proud to be an American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.
Are you John Kerry's speech writer?
Good. They should stop trying to move here.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
The unique combination of 46 chromosomes that contribute to the genetic make-up of humans, known as a karyotype and the environmental influences individuals experience every second of their lives from conception on.
That is what makes everyone do everything.
Some years ago, anthrophologist Margaret Mead (1935) compared the gender roles adopted by people in three tribal societies on the island of New Guinea, and her observations are certainly thought provoking. In the Arapesh tribe, both men and women were taught to play what we would regard as a feminine role: They were cooperative, nonaggressive, and sensitive to the needs of others. By contrast, both men and women of the Mundugumor tribe were brought up to be aggressive and emotionally unresponsive to other people - a masucline pattern of behaviour by Western standards. Finally, the Tchambuli displayed a pattern of gender-role development that was the direct opposite of the Western pattern: Males were passive, emotionally dependent, and socially sensitive, wheras females were dominant, independent, and assertive!
Mead's cross-cultural comparison suggests that cultural learning may have far more to do with the characteristic behaviour patterns of men and women than biological differences do.
And as far as the aspects of our systems that appear sexist, it's my experience that just as many women support and perpetuate such systems as do men.
The theories I am aware of that talk about high levels of psychological health are about balance, including between the typically male and female traits. I noticed that you and I, Ahnimus, have the exact same personality type, excepting one aspect: I am the "feeler" version, and you are the "thinker" one. (and what a surprise that is!!?!) This is the typical pattern of males and females: 70% of men are thinkers; 70% of women are feelers. In personality theory, this is attributed to conditioning. Ultimately, over time, if one is progressing well, one begins to find a happy medium and learns to become more healthy and well-rounded by opening to one's opposite.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I try to practice metacognition, to think about how I think. You bring up a good point about the value of emotional experience. Having emotional experiences can add to the understanding of certain personality traits. In neuroscience, Hebbian theory says in effect that thoughts, emotions and memories group together and fire together. So, an individual experiencing an event will associate it with wired thoughts, emotions and experience. However, this is highly plastic and can change over time. It's possible to reconstruct these engrams.
"The general idea is an old one, that any two cells or systems of cells that are repeatedly active at the same time will tend to become 'associated', so that activity in one facilitates activity in the other." (Hebb, 1949, p70.)
"When one cell repeatedly assists in firing another, the axon of the first cell develops synaptic knobs (or enlarges them if they already exist) in contact with the soma of the second cell." (Hebb, 1949, p63.)
The important aspect in my perspective, is properly attributing emotion to thoughts and experience. I don't want to become upset when I hear about something like racism or sexism. I've experience both, perhaps only mildly, however, relative. These emotional experiences encourage aggression and violence. Which in my opinion isn't a viable solution. That's a difficult thing to do, and perhaps not a wise one.
I think the perpetuation of sexist, racist and gender stereotypes is in large part the cause. Prejudice is always a hot topic and these social percepts proliferate through social interplay. This I believe is a fundamental construct of society that dictates our way of life. In Developmental Psychology it's believed that individuals affect their environment almost as much as their environment affects them. If a person has a percept they continue to revisit they will continue to influence their environment based on it.
This particular incident appears to be a genuine case of sexual aggression. The question is "What pushes people to do this?". It's my belief that social prejudices, stereotypes, poor child-rearing, bad luck, poor genetics and the prenatal environment all have a part in it. I have yet to hear a more viable understanding of people than a complex interaction of these variables. This theory I choose to believe in causes an emotional experience of empathy. The reason why I am empathetic to murderers and extremists, rapists and pedophiles. This is an emotion I can't ignore, our criminal justice systems do not make any effort to rectify the prejudices of society or the misfortunes of chance. We need accountability, we also need causality. We can protect society from certain people, we should also help them and continue to refine our techniques of helping them. Confide in them to help us understand our flaws. What did our species do to create them?
I don't think there is anything biologically normal about men raping women. Although some evolutionary biologists believe that it's an instinctive action designed to procreate. All men aren't rapists, there must be more variables than gender. Though it may play a part.
Those are my thoughts on it, I'm not always the best at putting it into words, but I'm getting better. I've got a lot of growing to do too.
I'm with you Ahnimus. I am also empathic to rapists, murderers, etc. I know they didn't create themselves in a vacuum. I am constantly stunned by mass-ignorance of the very intricate variables that create situations that culminate in deviant behaviour. I'm amazed at how the mainstream points the finger in blame, completely unaware that these individuals manifest the fallout of the entire system.
My daughter, as a sexually assaulted teen, was lined up for long-term, inpatient treatment over a summer (ten years ago) in the well-known psychiatric facility in your city. We were informed that herself and the other sexually assaulted teen girls would be staying with and being treated along with the male teenaged sexual assault offenders. The males and females were recognized as two sides of the sexual assault coin. The professionals were well aware that blame was non-productive, and that it contributes to the illness rampant in our systems. However, to be very clear: Accountability was very focussed on, wherein each individual on all sides of the coin, male and female, were accountable for their each action, in order to fully address healing.
According to co-dependency theory--and many experts in the field say base co-dependency applies to 95% of the population at this time--we are evolutionarily at a place where we are generally emotionally crippled from birth by our conditioning. Since the vast majority are taught to blot out a major part of our evolutionarily necessary brain functioning, our emotional intelligence, we objectify ourselves and therefore develop the false self or ego as a pale replacement. In terms of rape, when we as a society generally condone and support objectifying ourselves and others, it's not a surprise that a large majority of individuals don't have empathy for the children they sexually assault. We learn empathy by being shown empathy. We learn to objectify others when we are continually objectified. It's a "consoling" thought for people to demonize those who act out the fallout. Its a lot more difficult to understand, especially when it entails awakening our own stunted empathy. Ultimately understanding is shown with understanding.
I am not a male. I am a highly emotional "feeler" empath. But, my main personality function of emotion was shut down and I was objectified as a child. I was trained to perform intellectually by being taught to tune out my most prominant way of understanding the world--my emotions. Due to having my key intelligence disabled, I ended up finding myself in sexual assault situation after situation, until being well into my 30's. Having a lack of empathy, I also continually objectified my own self, and other humans in often cruel and unusual ways. As a teenager, I used to fantasize about killing myself and taking others with me. "Fortunately", by the brilliance of our homeostatic human systems, I developed numerous disorders due to my most natural emotional function being crippled. These disorders forced me out of my crippled ways, and redirected me towards looking to understand and find solutions. Both the OCD and eating disorders I had are typically developed by "harmavoid" personalities who are simply LOATHE in harming others--these disorders showed my true nature beyond my objectified self. My disorders saved me from the ugliness that my environment shaped in me and brought me back to my own nature wherein I was prevented from harming others. I would truly choose mental illness for myself than harm another willfully (as these disorders represent psychologically) I relate to men in that I was trained to be emotionally shut down in order to succeed intellectually. While I feel blessed that I am very comfortable having an intellectual discussion with any male as a result, I also understand the inner workings of shutting off one's potential in order to fit the false self. I can also relate to being one of the rare severe cases on the fringe that represent the flaws in the systems. It was clear that many people were willing write me off, after all I was bad and crazy. LIfe and my true nature had other things in store for me.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
This CAN change, when one learns to process and clear the old emotions that are grouped in associations and distorting our perceptions in the now. Unfortunately, the majority takes such projections to be real and continue to project "wrong" and "bad" at others. Thereby they continue to justify living out the false life. It's the norm!
I know that these "engrams" can be completely reconstructed as that is how I have rewired my brain from illness to open potential. According to widely scientifically studied levels of consciousness, those who are able to see realistically, are the mere 2% of the population who have learned to accept, deal with and release the inner distortions. By doing so, they can rise to "second tier" conscious--the cutting edge of consciousness at this time. The awareness that is normal at this time is one where each group thinks they are "right" and others groups are wrong". Such groups are unable to reach understanding and resolution of problems. However, at second tier consciousness, one actually comes to understand "theories of everything" because one's consciousness becomes integrative and holistic, and therefore one can embrace all aspects of life, at every level, which is necessary for actual understanding. In the "lower" stages of consciousness, by ignoring and deleting what one sees as "wrong", one misses out on understanding vast amounts of data, while living essentially a false holographic projection of the brain.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!