Anyone ever stepped out of the Church?

casper leblanc

As in 'undoing' your baptisme (though you can't really 'undo' this, you should be able to)? Stepping out of the Curch is possible in Belgium.

I'm seriously thinking of writing a letter and asking the bisshop to erase my name from their registers. It won't get me anyware or anything, except peace of mind. It's a matter of principles.

I read somewhere they don't really erase you (here in Belgium that is), but they fill in 'renounces his baptical vows'. :rolleyes: Says it all in my opinion.

note: that doesn't mean I blame my parents for baptising me as a child in the first place. Though I will leave my kid the choice.

lalalalaaaaaaaa

It's true, you do get taken off the list. Then you're put on the Naughty List.

casper leblanc

I can live with that

soulsinging

dont think they do that here. i was under the impression it was kinda "once baptised always catholic." kinda like if your mother is jewish you are always a jew, no matter what you believe. david cross has a bit aobut it. honestly, i dont see it being worth the effort. think of it as an insurance policy just in case god has that list at the pearly gates... you wanna be on it

casper leblanc

soulsinging wrote:

think of it as an insurance policy just in case god has that list at the pearly gates... you wanna be on it

Dude, you and your sinfull lifestyle... you have no chance in hell - pun very much intended - of making that list.

humanlight

My question is what has made you feel so strongly about no longer continuing on your spiritual journey. I for one, was born and raised Catholic. Do I think they have it right...naw. Do I think any human has it right. No. So, I think it is best to learn all I can, and sometimes that means attending church. I think spirituality takes a lifetime to understand, and I question it everyday of my life. But, I do not believe I will ever have the answer, and think if God came down today, he would laugh at what we have made out of religion.

CorporateWhore

I think more people should do what casper the white is doing. It would really tell us who's who. I get tired of fake christians.

hippiemom

I was never baptized, so I haven't, but my grandmother did. Her mother and her priest told her that she'd go to hell if she married "that dirty Baptist," so on her 21st birthday she marched over to the church and quit. I doubt there was any kind of formal procedure, but she did publicly renounce the Catholic church and was very happily married to the dirty Baptist (probably the finest man I've ever known) until the day he died.

casper leblanc

humanlight wrote:

My question is what has made you feel so strongly about no longer continuing on your spiritual journey.

A couple of reasons:

I've never started a spiritual journey.

I've grown up to dislike any form of organised religion. The fact that the Church gets funds based on the amount of people in their registers makes me want to leave. Cause I don't want an institution I don't aprove of getting money merely on my headcount.

And there's another important personal reason I will not elaborate on (for now).

Collin

casper leblanc wrote:

As in 'undoing' your baptisme (though you can't really 'undo' this, you should be able to)? Stepping out of the Curch is possible in Belgium.

I'm seriously thinking of writing a letter and asking the bisshop to erase my name from their registers. It won't get me anyware or anything, except peace of mind. It's a matter of principles.

I read somewhere they don't really erase you (here in Belgium that is), but they fill in 'renounces his baptical vows'. :rolleyes: Says it all in my opinion.

note: that doesn't mean I blame my parents for baptising me as a child in the first place. Though I will leave my kid the choice.

I've thought about it, mainly because another Belgian poster (pearlwax) posed that exact same question a while ago, I believe he said something about the Church getting funds for every baptised person.

Obsidian22

Having gone to an all girl Catholic high school, and had religion shoved down my throat, I walked away during my last year there. Hypocrites is a mild understatement. That's another story. Organized religion is for the birds to peck at. There's too many questions, so few answers.
I travelled to Italy in 1996 and spent 8 weeks in Rome on holiday. The moment I set foot in St.Peter's I knew the "Supreme Being, Great Spirit" was absent.
The extravagence, opulance and misuse of money is heartbreaking, while the gypsies and their children beg, lie and steal not 500 feet from the front door.

surferdude

CorporateWhore wrote:

I think more people should do what casper the white is doing. It would really tell us who's who. I get tired of fake christians.

What is a fake christian? Are there such things as fakes jews in your world? Does an aetheist have to stick to any code of behaviour in order to be a real aetheist? Can an aetheist in your world become a fake aetheist?

Can we extend this to nationalities? Can we start calling democrats fake Americans? Or are the republicans the fake Americans?

Collin

surferdude wrote:

What is a fake christian? Are there such things as fakes jews in your world? Does an aetheist have to stick to any code of behaviour in order to be a real aetheist? Can an aetheist in your world become a fake aetheist?

Can we extend this to nationalities? Can we start calling democrats fake Americans? Or are the republicans the fake Americans?

I'm still registered as a Christian, though I am definitely not a believer, so I guess I would be a 'fake' Christian, at least that's what I make of his post.

And you cannot compare atheism with theism.

surferdude

Collin wrote:

And you cannot compare atheism with theism.

But I did, so I guess you can.

I'm trying to understand what a fake christian is? And also why I only ever hear this attributed to some christians and not jews or other religions. Does this idea of "fakeness" extend to other things, like; fake American or fake Native American or fake Jew.

Who gets to decide what goes into being a "fake ____"? How do we know this person or persons are authentic themselves?

As far a fake atheist go I'd say there's a lot of them. Most people who I know who label themselves as atheist are really agnostic. But being agnostic doesn't seem to give them the same street cred as saying they're atheist does.

my2hands

"I was Catholic until i reached the age of reason" ~~ George Carlin

Collin

surferdude wrote:

I'm trying to understand what a fake christian is?

As far a fake atheist go I'd say there's a lot of them. Most people who I know who label themselves as atheist are really agnostic. But being agnostic doesn't seem to give them the same street cred as saying they're atheist does.

Well if you can say what a fake atheist is than surely you must know what a fake Christian is.

but this is all off topic.

CorporateWhore

surferdude wrote:

What is a fake christian? Are there such things as fakes jews in your world? Does an aetheist have to stick to any code of behaviour in order to be a real aetheist? Can an aetheist in your world become a fake aetheist?

Can we extend this to nationalities? Can we start calling democrats fake Americans? Or are the republicans the fake Americans?

Christians in name only.

surferdude

CorporateWhore wrote:

Christians in name only.

What does this mean? Does a person who believes in God and Jesus but leads a miserable life a fake christian?

Is a Jew eating a ham and cheese sandwich with glass of milk a fake jew?

Is an American that abstains from voting a fake American?

Can you be muslim and American at the same time? Or does this make you a fake muslim and a fake American?

Is an African-American listening to Kenny G a fake black man?

Inky

surferdude wrote:

What is a fake christian? Are there such things as fakes jews in your world? Does an aetheist have to stick to any code of behaviour in order to be a real aetheist? Can an aetheist in your world become a fake aetheist?

Can we extend this to nationalities? Can we start calling democrats fake Americans? Or are the republicans the fake Americans?

I guess a "fake christian" is a baptised person who doesn't believe in god.
I think your comparisons are rather poor. Jewry has also something to do with your Nationality whereas Christianity hasn't got anything to do with it. Atheism is totally different...you don't really belong to anything when you're an atheist, you just describe yourself as one.

And you of course can't extend that to nationalities since you of course can't say that every American is a Republican or a Democrat or whatever whereas every "real" Christian believes in god and Jesus.

surferdude

Inky wrote:

I guess a "fake christian" is a baptised person who doesn't believe in god.
I think your comparisons are rather poor. Jewry has also something to do with your Nationality whereas Christianity hasn't got anything to do with it. Atheism is totally different...you don't really belong to anything when you're an atheist, you just describe yourself as one.

And you of course can't extend that to nationalities since you of course can't say that every American is a Republican or a Democrat or whatever whereas every "real" Christian believes in god and Jesus.

Anyone can convert to Judaism. It's a belief. So if a person can convert to Judaism can they at some point become a "fake" Jew? And is this option only available to a first generation Jew?

But if the Jewish belief is hereditary is the christian as well? Can you ever be a "fake" christian?

Christianity is a belief. Some people mislabel themselves as Christians when they're not. Same as a lot of people mislabel themselves as atheists when they are really agnostic.

Inky

surferdude wrote:

Anyone can convert to Judaism. It's a belief. So if a person can convert to Judaism can they at some point become a "fake" Jew? And is this option only available to a first generation Jew?

But if the Jewish belief is hereditary is the christian as well? Can you ever be a "fake" christian?

Christianity is a belief. Some people mislabel themselves as Christians when they're not. Same as a lot of people mislabel themselves as atheists when they are really agnostic.

Well I think Judaism isn't a belief in the first place...
from Wikipedia:
"What makes a person Jewish?

According to traditional Jewish Law, someone is considered to be a Jew if he or she was born of a Jewish mother or converted in accord with Jewish Law. American Reform Judaism and British Liberal Judaism accept the child of one Jewish parent (father or mother) as Jewish if the parents raise the child as a Jew by Progressive standards. All mainstream forms of Judaism today are open to sincere converts.

Judaism maintains that one born Jewish or one who has converted to Judaism retains his or her status as a Jew forever. One who converts to another religion or is an atheist is considered to be a Jew not in good religious standing. How religious one is, in this sense, is only important in one's status in Jewish law. For example, a person denying the Jewish principles of faith may be considered a heretic, while still considered Jewish."

Christian belief isn't hereditary, you become a Christian when you're baptised. Most of the time you cou can't decide if you want to be baptised or not so it may happen that you don't believe in god even though you're baptised. Then you may be called a fake Christian. Well...you also could be called a fake christian if you mislabel yourself as one even though you actually aren't one as you said...I guess we need an accurate definition of a fake christian...
I can't say anything to the atheism-agnosticism thing because all the atheists I know were raised as Christians...

surferdude

Inky wrote:

Well I think Judaism isn't a belief in the first place...
from Wikipedia:
"What makes a person Jewish?

According to traditional Jewish Law, someone is considered to be a Jew if he or she was born of a Jewish mother or converted in accord with Jewish Law. American Reform Judaism and British Liberal Judaism accept the child of one Jewish parent (father or mother) as Jewish if the parents raise the child as a Jew by Progressive standards. All mainstream forms of Judaism today are open to sincere converts.

Judaism maintains that one born Jewish or one who has converted to Judaism retains his or her status as a Jew forever. One who converts to another religion or is an atheist is considered to be a Jew not in good religious standing. How religious one is, in this sense, is only important in one's status in Jewish law. For example, a person denying the Jewish principles of faith may be considered a heretic, while still considered Jewish."

Christian belief isn't hereditary, you become a Christian when you're baptised. Most of the time you cou can't decide if you want to be baptised or not so it may happen that you don't believe in god even though you're baptised. Then you may be called a fake Christian. Well...you also could be called a fake christian if you mislabel yourself as one even though you actually aren't one as you said...I guess we need an accurate definition of a fake christian...
I can't say anything to the atheism-agnosticism thing because all the atheists I know were raised as Christians...

Thanks for the work you've done. But I'm a little confused why you so easily accept two different "standards of burdens" regarding being Jewish as compared to being Christian.

Uncle Leo

CorporateWhore wrote:

Christians in name only.

Is this an example?---Sure they believe in God and Jesus. They even go to Church. But when asked whether non-believers go to hell, they get wishy washy. A real Christian recognizes, and proudly acknowleges without worrying about being "PC", that non-believers are looking at eternal damnation.

Or is it something a bit less edgy--like those people that only go to Church at Christmas and Easter?

Inky

surferdude wrote:

Thanks for the work you've done. But I'm a little confused why you so easily accept two different "standards of burdens" regarding being Jewish as compared to being Christian.

standards of burdens?


Well, I wanted to dicuss about the term "fake Christian" first and then reference it to other religions or nationalities...

Inky

Uncle Leo wrote:

Is this an example?---Sure they believe in God and Jesus. They even go to Church. But when asked whether non-believers go to hell, they get wishy washy. A real Christian recognizes, and proudly acknowleges without worrying about being "PC", that non-believers are looking at eternal damnation.

Or is it something a bit less edgy--like those people that only go to Church at Christmas and Easter?

What? :eek:

Yeah, I've also thought about that....

DixieN

humanlight wrote:

My question is what has made you feel so strongly about no longer continuing on your spiritual journey. I for one, was born and raised Catholic. Do I think they have it right...naw. Do I think any human has it right. No. So, I think it is best to learn all I can, and sometimes that means attending church. I think spirituality takes a lifetime to understand, and I question it everyday of my life. But, I do not believe I will ever have the answer, and think if God came down today, he would laugh at what we have made out of religion.

Some people step out of a church in order to continue on a spiritual journey. I do believe that you are right--if God exists and were to manifest itself more clearly today, it might laugh (if it had such a capacity) at what we have made out of our many religions. Well, either that, or cry.

DixieN

Inky wrote:

I guess a "fake christian" is a baptised person who doesn't believe in god.
I think your comparisons are rather poor. Jewry has also something to do with your Nationality whereas Christianity hasn't got anything to do with it. Atheism is totally different...you don't really belong to anything when you're an atheist, you just describe yourself as one.

And you of course can't extend that to nationalities since you of course can't say that every American is a Republican or a Democrat or whatever whereas every "real" Christian believes in god and Jesus.

A baptised person who doesn't believe in god is probably an atheist, not a "fake Christian." I am a baptised person who doesn't know whether there is a god or not. Either there is, and everything you see is part of it--including you and me--or there is no god, but I have no proof either way. In no way am I a "fake Christian." The only person who could be a "fake Christian" would be a person who actually had some other faith--or none at all--but, pretended to be Christian. I think there are some people like this around--mostly people who don't really believe--but, who feel like they should in order to perhaps avoid hell.

I think a really good teaching from the Bible is "judge not." Not for fear that you'll be judged; but, maybe out of a sense of having achieved a little growth in life's journey. When I was a believer, I was urged to judge harshly those who were not believers or who believed differently than I. When I became an unbeliever, I judged those who believed differently than I harshly. Now that I have come to a place where I realize belief, non-belief, etc., are ALL just forms of belief, I try not to be so judgmental. Not because I fear being judged/punished; but, because I feel diminished as a person.

Also, if you are an atheist, you do not typically belong to an organized body; however, you do belong to a group of people who share your beliefs and with whom you do resonate.

soulsinging

casper leblanc wrote:

Dude, you and your sinfull lifestyle... you have no chance in hell - pun very much intended - of making that list.

i was baptised dude. im gold, doesnt matter how much i sin from now until i die as long as i feel bad about it

qtegirl

I think a person can be raised in a specific religion, as I was Catholic. But I don't consider myself catholic because I don't believe in the principles. That Jesus is the son of God, that Mary was a Virgin, etc.

I guess, what I'm trying to say is that, a "real Catholic" is one that comes to accept the dogma of the church as truth and faith, for oneself. Not because that's the way you're raised. The same goes for christians in general and other religions.

I guess that's why some people call themselve "born again christians." Because they came to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior as adults.

Inky

DixieN wrote:

A baptised person who doesn't believe in god is probably an atheist, not a "fake Christian." I am a baptised person who doesn't know whether there is a god or not. Either there is, and everything you see is part of it--including you and me--or there is no god, but I have no proof either way. In no way am I a "fake Christian." The only person who could be a "fake Christian" would be a person who actually had some other faith--or none at all--but, pretended to be Christian. I think there are some people like this around--mostly people who don't really believe--but, who feel like they should in order to perhaps avoid hell.

Also, if you are an atheist, you do not typically belong to an organized body; however, you do belong to a group of people who share your beliefs and with whom you do resonate.

Okay, you're right about that. But I mean the people who are baptised but for example don't really believe in god. I'm going to a catholic school and we pray everyday before the classes begin. About a quarter of my class goes to church more than just at easter and Christmas and maybe actually thinks about what they say while they're praying. The others just speak the learned-by-heart prayers even though they're, in my opinion, no real Christians anymore. I'm raised catholic but I would call myself an atheist because I've got too many doubts at the moment, so I don't pray with the others and started not going to the communion anymore.
Sorry, I expressed myself the wrong way...

Of course but you call yourself an atheist and if you believe in something different you wouldn't do that anymore so I doubt that there could be a fake atheist.

miller8966

You cant be a fake atheist unless you somehow convert to a religion.

Thank you're not fake...You're saved