Bush: "We know what the terrorists want because they told us"

farfromglorified

inmytree wrote:

the guy in Iran, ahmadinejad, and bush pretty much do and say the same thing...both are using the other to foster fear in order to keep the masses at bay...

just listen to both, you'll hear it, if you let yourself...

oddly, ahmadinejad came to power much the same way as bush...



...both beat the drums of war...and both say things they know are untrue....both use the other to push their agenda....

Excellent post.

callen

farfromglorified wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_calendar

I'm sure if George Bush started talking about a "Christian revolution reaching the entire world" you'd be willing to blow it off as "pandering"? Going to church and saying crap like "In God we Trust" is one thing. Veiled threats are another.

This guy is a religious hard-liner. If George Bush's religious leanings make you uncomfortable, this guy should make you quake. Khatami was a panderer. This guy is the real deal.

...he just uses God to get votes.....the Iranian president does the same Its all about power and money and the gullible.

farfromglorified

callen wrote:

...he just uses God to get votes.....the Iranian president does the same Its all about power and money and the gullible.

Similarities, certainly. "The same", no.

RockinInCanada

Both should be removed.....

callen

Abuskedti wrote:

I don't disagree with any of that.. but the point is that he is the leader of Iran. He makes their decisions. there is no benefit in refusing to talk to him. If our ideas are better - If cooperating with the US is "win-win" than we should try and persuade him.

because, there is plenty of history to show that war is "lose-lose"

but at this point it really doesn't matter if there is dialog....the Iranian President has a strategy..and will keep with that strategy...I'm all for dialog..and I'm very much against the ethnocentrist policies of this administration and most Americans...but think we let the Eurpeans keep this going....we (America) pretty much pissed off our respect for doing the right thing in the world with Iraq.

callen

farfromglorified wrote:

Similarities, certainly. "The same", no.

how are they different? Bush uses catch names like "Evil" "Extremists" Facists" etc in describing Muslims...oh and if you say he differentiates between good and bad Muslims...the average Schmuck in America see them as one...and Bush knows this. .....and there are many Good Christians that see this as a war between Christians and Muslims...and Bush plays on this. Same as the Iranian dude...no??

farfromglorified

callen wrote:

how are they different? Bush uses catch names like "Evil" "Extremists" Facists" etc in describing Muslims...oh and if you say he differentiates between good and bad Muslims...the average Schmuck in America see them as one...and Bush knows this. .....and there are many Good Christians that see this as a war between Christians and Muslims...and Bush plays on this. Same as the Iranian dude...no??

When George Bush declares that men and women should ride in seperate elevators, I'll agree with you. When George Bush has an absolute ruler that judges his opponents unfit to run in an "election", I'll agree with you.

Just because Winston Churchill and Adolf Hitler had some similitaries did not make them "the same". Same goes here. Your brush is too big for your hand.

callen

farfromglorified wrote:

When George Bush declares that men and women should ride in seperate elevators, I'll agree with you. When George Bush has an absolute ruler that judges his opponents unfit to run in an "election", I'll agree with you.

Just because Winston Churchill and Adolf Hitler had some similitaries did not make them "the same". Same goes here. Your brush is too big for your hand.

need better examples.....the elevator example doesn't fit..thats a cultural thing (i don't agree mind you...I"m thinking women get almost the same rights as men (-: ) ....the opponent example little better.......we have a two party system..so?!?!...my point was that they both use religion to further their need for power and greed...and both vilify their supposed enemies...I do like your brush to big for my hand anology...cause I am guilty of that...alot...for sure. Peace...FFG.

farfromglorified

callen wrote:

need better examples.....the elevator example doesn't fit..thats a cultural thing (i don't agree mind you...I"m thinking women get almost the same rights as men (-: ) ....the opponent example little better.......we have a two party system..so?!?!...my point was that they both use religion to further their need for power and greed...and both vilify their supposed enemies...I do like your brush to big for my hand anology...cause I am guilty of that...alot...for sure. Peace...FFG.

Our "two party system" doesn't have an absolute ruler that can ban one of those two parties ineligible. It's not a "cultural thing" to ban women from the same elevators when the culture (while repressive to women) does not agree with such a policy.

Look, your point has merit you're just taking it too far. Certainly there are scary similarities between the two leaders. But there are important differences between them and, more importantly, between the political systems that they operate in.

callen

farfromglorified wrote:

Our "two party system" doesn't have an absolute ruler that can ban one of those two parties ineligible. It's not a "cultural thing" to ban women from the same elevators when the culture (while repressive to women) does not agree with such a policy.

Look, your point has merit you're just taking it too far. Certainly there are scary similarities between the two leaders. But there are important differences between them and, more importantly, between the political systems that they operate in.

like you, I agree we have a better, more equitable society than the Iranians (surely we're both little ethnocentric)...also realize there is no comparison in political systems between Iran and the US...but...Bush uses the same rhetoric as Iranian Dude with the same motivations...thats all....both are "Evil Do-er's" using gullible people to further their agenda...

RockinInCanada

callen wrote:

like you, I agree we have a better, more equitable society than the Iranians (surely we're both little ethnocentric)...also realize there is no comparison in political systems between Iran and the US...but...Bush uses the same rhetoric as Iranian Dude with the same motivations...thats all....both are "Evil Do-er's" using gullible people to further their agenda...

Too bad the gullible are the majority of the populace.....

farfromglorified

callen wrote:

both are "Evil Do-er's" using gullible people to further their agenda...

Yes. That is fair.

Abuskedti

inmytree wrote:

the guy in Iran, ahmadinejad, and bush pretty much do and say the same thing...both are using the other to foster fear in order to keep the masses at bay...

just listen to both, you'll hear it, if you let yourself...

oddly, ahmadinejad came to power much the same way as bush...



...both beat the drums of war...and both say things they know are untrue....both use the other to push their agenda....

This is true... but this is about America.. not just the moron in charge. Are we to adjust our expectations and just accept whatever this asshole does to us while he finishes his term?

farfromglorified

Abuskedti wrote:

This is true... but this is about America.. not just the moron in charge. Are we to adjust our expectations and just accept whatever this asshole does to us while he finishes his term?

Which asshole?

acutejam

Abuskedti wrote:

..but the point is that he is the leader of Iran. He makes their decisions. there is no benefit in refusing to talk to him...

Please. He is not the leader of Iran. That would be Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.
He does not make decisions, that would be the Council of Guardians. He is the puppet of a brutal regime that has hijacked a wonderfully vibrant people and flown them into the ground.

And I can think of one benefit, saves us from wasting our breath.

Abookamongstthemany

acutejam wrote:

Please. He is not the leader of Iran. That would be Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.
He does not make decisions, that would be the Council of Guardians. He is the puppet of a brutal regime that has hijacked a wonderfully vibrant people and flown them into the ground.

And I can think of one benefit, saves us from wasting our breath.

Any attempt to avoid violence and death could never be a waste. Only the fearful and closeminded refuse to listen.

acutejam

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Any attempt to avoid violence and death could never be a waste. Only the fearful and closeminded refuse to listen.

Ask Neville Chamberlain about that....

wiki:
It has been argued that if an overly bellicose war enthusiasm had produced the mass slaughter of World War I, then the resulting determination to avoid war at all costs in the 1930s proved equally counterproductive, with Europe's failure to oppose Hitler leading him to be more aggressive.

Uh, the stupid can refuse to listen. And the deaf. And the belligerent. And the proud. And children. And the drunkard, never forget the drunkard. You gotta keep your eye on the drunkard.

So no, lots of folks can refuse to listen, but nice attempt at a pigeon-holing broad-brush-stroke of a statement regardless....

Abookamongstthemany

acutejam wrote:

Uh, the stupid can refuse to listen. And the deaf. And the belligerent. And the proud. And children. And the drunkard, never forget the drunkard. You gotta keep your eye on the drunkard.

So no, lots of folks can refuse to listen, but nice attempt at a pigeon-holing broad-brush-stroke of a statement regardless....

Apart from the deaf, all that you listed can fall under closeminded.

rebornFixer

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Any attempt to avoid violence and death could never be a waste. Only the fearful and closeminded refuse to listen.

Listening is one thing. Taking what is heard as valid is something else entirely. My desire to truly understand the subjective human experiences of another is stiffled by statements that are fueled by hatred, bigotry, and irrational religiosity. If that makes me a bad person, then guilty as charged!

farfromglorified

reborncareerist wrote:

My desire to truly understand the subjective human experiences of another is stiffled by statements that are fueled by hatred, bigotry, and irrational religiosity.

The "subjective human experience" is often defined by the very things you mentioned. Particularly in the context of Mahmoud here.

Understanding the objective human experience is the reason we need to listen. And I think we've heard enough from dear Mahmoud's lips to understand the situation. He has nothing to offer.