More than 140 bodies turn up on Baghdad streets

he still stands

Shiites burn 6 Sunni worshippers alive.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061124/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_061124144022

When do we stop calling this "civilian strife" and start calling this "Bush's Civil War"?

bryanfury

ThumbingMyWay32 wrote:

You don't understand because you believe everyone who supports the war thinks 'stay the course' is the correct line of action.

There are several areas that are hell right now. Fifteen of the Eighteen provinces routinely report hardly any violence at all on a day to day basis.

up until his party got lambasted at the polls, "stay the course" was the only option for those supporting the war (according to Bush and Cheney anyways). anything else was looked at as defeatism.

bryanfury

jlew24asu wrote:

I agree with this. not sure how we "lost" this war, or cant win like robbie said. its not about winning or losing. we toppled the Hussein Regime, captured Saddam Hussein and turned him over for trial, got their government elected. ok good. now its up to the iraqis to make a better life for themselves. they are the ones killing each other. not US troops.

people with that line of reasoning just don't get it. Our brand of democracy does not work for everyone. shit, it barely works for us.

i think we are starting to see now why Sadaam ruled the way he did. its just not fair to rewrite historyas "we did our part, but the iraqis didn't do theirs"

robbie

jlew24asu wrote:

I agree with this. not sure how we "lost" this war, or cant win like robbie said. its not about winning or losing. we toppled the Hussein Regime, captured Saddam Hussein and turned him over for trial, got their government elected. ok good. now its up to the iraqis to make a better life for themselves. they are the ones killing each other. not US troops.

its not about winning or losing?????/ i though for sure i saw W. slither up to a podium on many occasions talking about total and complete VICTORY. according to this administration, anything less that total and complete VICTORY is a WIN for the terrorists. Shit, while campaigning he said a victory for the democrats means a victory for the terrorists and a loss for America. fact is we lost this war. i dont know if the "terrorists" won the war, but I do know we lost it. And thanks to W, and the way he has framed the argument, there is no other way to look at this than a victory for the terrorists. He not only LOST the war, he made it impossible to see anything less than a working flourishing democracy as a terrorist victory. we will eventually pull our troops out...... at that point i imagine the "terrorists" will celebrate and claim victory, they will replay everytime W. stated that anything less than victory is a terrorist win, and the point will be made and it will be inarguable. although there are ways to get out of this nightmare and it is the right thing to do, George has made it impossible. there is a difference between being scared away by the terrorists and running home, and leaving a situation because we have don eall we could, and have no business fighting in a civil war between iraqis. ut W. has taken the option of leaving for any other reason than being scared off by terrorists off the table with his gung ho cowboy talk......... what a goddamn mess you and your president have made.

Truthmonger

jlew24asu wrote:

not sure how we "lost" this war, or cant win like robbie said.

Iraq has been lost, just as Afghanistan has largely been lost. In Afghanistan, the U.S. was supposed to curtail, if not eliminate, opium production b/c its proceeds were supporting the bad guys. Well, for the last 3-4 years that the U.S. has been in there, opium production has skyrocketed. Its just one indication of how things are going there:


http://www.rawstory.com/showarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.yahoo.com%2Fs%2Fnm%2F20061123%2Fhl_nm%2Fcocaine_heroin_dc

LISBON (Reuters) - Illegal drugs may be cheaper than ever before in Europe, with prices of heroin slumping 45 percent and cocaine down 22 percent over five years, according to the first Europe-wide report of its kind on drug prices.

The steep fall in heroin prices in 1999-2004 came as drug production in Afghanistan surged so much after the fall of the Taliban that supply could now be exceeding global demand for heroin, threatening to spur more drug use.

Afghanistan accounts for about 90 percent of world production of opium - the raw material for heroin - and its production has soared since a U.S.-led invasion ousted the government of the Islamist Taliban in 2001. NATO troops are currently battling a Taliban insurgency, which has been fueled by the drugs trade.

"Afghanistan is the key player in global heroin production and developments in the country have the potential to impact on the kind of drug problem we will face in Europe in the future," said Wolfgang Gotz, head of the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction (EMCDDA), in a statement.

Gotz said "we cannot ignore the dangers posed by a growing surplus of heroin on the global illicit market." In 2004 a record 19 tonnes of heroin was seized in Europe, up 10 percent from 2003, the report said.

But according to the five-year price analysis in the Lisbon-based agency's 2006 annual report, the price of virtually all drugs in Europe, from cannabis to ecstasy, cocaine and heroin slumped from 1999 to 2004.

"Average prices were falling in most countries and for most substances, in some cases by almost half," the report said.

It said there is no long-term data on the street price of drugs, but available information indicated prices are lower now than they were a decade ago, with cocaine and ecstasy cheaper today than in the late 1980s.

Although there was a dip in European cocaine seizures in 2004 relative to 2003, the "overall long-term trend is probably still upwards."

Price is just one of many factors that prompt people to take drugs and there is no simple way of saying it is spurring more drug users, the report said.

"Nonetheless we cannot fail to be concerned that across Europe drugs are becoming cheaper in real terms," EMCDDA chairman Marcel Reimen said in a statement.

"If this means that those who have a tendency to consume drugs will use them more, then the ultimate cost of drug-taking in terms of healthcare and damage to our communities is likely to be considerable," he said.

Drug prices still varied considerably in different European countries, with cannabis ranging from 2.3 euros per gram in Portugal to 12 euros per gram in Norway and heroin going for 12 euros a gram in Turkey to 141 euros a gram in Sweden.

bryanfury

Truthmonger wrote:

Iraq has been lost, just as Afghanistan has largely been lost. In Afghanistan, the U.S. was supposed to curtail, if not eliminate, opium production b/c its proceeds were supporting the bad guys. Well, for the last 3-4 years that the U.S. has been in there, opium production has skyrocketed. Its just one indication of how things are going there:

this is if you do not believe we (u.s. gvt) wanted the opium trade to go up...

but Afghanistan is an interesting case. It leads to my belief that either the Bush admin are complete idiots (i know...), or it fosters belief in "conspiracy" theories.

what better way to show saddam we mean business than to go into Afghanistan with 150,000 troops, rehaul the country, and prop it up as a democracy.

instead, we go in half assed, forget about it afterwards, and march into iraq.

idiots or conspiracy?

jlew24asu

robbie wrote:

its not about winning or losing?????/ i though for sure i saw W. slither up to a podium on many occasions talking about total and complete VICTORY. according to this administration, anything less that total and complete VICTORY is a WIN for the terrorists. Shit, while campaigning he said a victory for the democrats means a victory for the terrorists and a loss for America. fact is we lost this war. i dont know if the "terrorists" won the war, but I do know we lost it. And thanks to W, and the way he has framed the argument, there is no other way to look at this than a victory for the terrorists. He not only LOST the war, he made it impossible to see anything less than a working flourishing democracy as a terrorist victory. we will eventually pull our troops out...... at that point i imagine the "terrorists" will celebrate and claim victory, they will replay everytime W. stated that anything less than victory is a terrorist win, and the point will be made and it will be inarguable. although there are ways to get out of this nightmare and it is the right thing to do, George has made it impossible. there is a difference between being scared away by the terrorists and running home, and leaving a situation because we have don eall we could, and have no business fighting in a civil war between iraqis. ut W. has taken the option of leaving for any other reason than being scared off by terrorists off the table with his gung ho cowboy talk......... what a goddamn mess you and your president have made.

I dont give a fuck what W says. I was speaking of my own opinions on winning and losing. and last I checked he was your president too.

jlew24asu

bryanfury wrote:

people with that line of reasoning just don't get it. Our brand of democracy does not work for everyone. shit, it barely works for us.

i think we are starting to see now why Sadaam ruled the way he did. its just not fair to rewrite historyas "we did our part, but the iraqis didn't do theirs"

when will people understand the world doesnt revolve around your own opinon. I can easily say that you dont get it. our brand of democracy? how about something called freedom. is that worth fighting for sometimes? sure, people in the middle east may very well just not want it. they prefer to live under the rule of 1 person. that fine, lets just pack up and go home.

if Iraqis want freedom, then yes, theyhave to do their part.

Open

jlew24asu wrote:

I agree with this. not sure how we "lost" this war, or cant win like robbie said. its not about winning or losing. we toppled the Hussein Regime, captured Saddam Hussein and turned him over for trial, got their government elected. ok good. now its up to the iraqis to make a better life for themselves. they are the ones killing each other. not US troops.

Are you kidding me? So we bought them ice cream and it's up to them to eat it? Is this how u view this? It's more like we burned down their house and wonder why no one is mowing the lawn.

jlew24asu

Open wrote:

Are you kidding me? So we bought them ice cream and it's up to them to eat it? Is this how u view this? It's more like we burned down their house and wonder why no one is mowing the lawn.

thats a cute analogy but no I dont view it like that.

Iraqis have to take responsibilty for themselves. people like mullah Al Sadar. he called for calm after yesterdays triple car bomb in his own neighborhood.