People really believe we are not a racist nation

Abuskedti

cincybearcat wrote:

You have to be kidding. You been drinking the Che Kool-aid again?

not kidding at all..

The dead Iraqis are not even a consideration in our decision making. In fact, it seems we look at that as a bright side of this adventure.

sponger

Jeanwah wrote:

It's not racism, it's a stereotype.

A stereotype based on race is racism.

jeffbr

Abuskedti wrote:

we play political games by killing 600,000 Iraqis. We as a nation comfortably overlook that. If we killed 600,000 people that looked and acted like us - for example in England - the outrage would be massive..

That is a racist nation.

2 things:

- who is "we"? Did US servicemen actually kill 600,000 Iraqis?

- we killed them because they're brown? I thought you guys always said the war was about oil.

sponger

jeffbr wrote:

2 things:

- who is "we"? Did US servicemen actually kill 600,000 Iraqis?

- we killed them because they're brown? I thought you guys always said the war was about oil.

His point is that if the oil belonged to white people, we wouldn't be so inclined to murder 600,000 of them for it.

jeffbr

sponger wrote:

His point is that if the oil belonged to white people, we wouldn't be so inclined to murder 600,000 of them for it.

Luckily we haven't murdered 600,000 Iraqis either. And the other premise is entirely hypothetical, I suppose. So I'll just say I disagree with the premise, and we've now acheived stalemate.

It isn't like we haven't gone to battle against predominantly caucasian nations in our history. In fact, one of our nation's most important wars was against white people who spoke English.

Abuskedti

jeffbr wrote:

Luckily we haven't murdered 600,000 Iraqis either. And the other premise is entirely hypothetical, I suppose. So I'll just say I disagree with the premise, and we've now acheived stalemate.

It isn't like we haven't gone to battle against predominantly caucasian nations in our history. In fact, one of our nation's most important wars was against white people who spoke English.

That is true... We fought them for the right to make our own decisions and run our country as we see fit. We did not invade them because we incorrectly assumed they were doing something wrong.. followed by proclaiming it illegal to be unhappy with our invasion and proceed to label offenders insurgents and kill them for the next 4 years... then gather and decide to continue to do so for "a long time". In addition, after a month or so of massive bombing - left the country incapable of providing security and us unwilling to provide security - leaving a criminal element the freedom to organize and thrive resulting in horrible deaths and leaving the entire nation in a state of fear and great danger.

That sums up what we have done for Iraq so far.

jeffbr

Abuskedti wrote:

That is true... We fought them for the right to make our own decisions and run our country as we see fit. We did not invade them because we incorrectly assumed they were doing something wrong.. followed by proclaiming it illegal to be unhappy with our invasion and proceed to label offenders insurgents and kill them for the next 4 years... then gather and decide to continue to do so for "a long time". In addition, after a month or so of massive bombing - left the country incapable of providing security and us unwilling to provide security - leaving a criminal element the freedom to organize and thrive resulting in horrible deaths and leaving the entire nation in a state of fear and great danger.

That sums up what we have done for Iraq so far.

Well, since I'm not a supporter of the Iraq war or Bush, I won't be arguing against the points in this post. I happen to agree with most of it. I just disagree with the racist notion.

Abuskedti

jeffbr wrote:

Well, since I'm not a supporter of the Iraq war or Bush, I won't be arguing against the points in this post. I happen to agree with most of it. I just disagree with the racist notion.

If we did this to a white English speaking nation the citizens would bring down the government.

Probably less because of empathy and more because they'd fear what may be next and if it may happen to them.

American citizens have nothing to fear personally from an incoherent violent slaughter of Muslims.. so they just change the channel.

sponger

These days, I think a majority of those dead muslims are being killed by their fellow muslims. In fact, if Saddam wasn't around all those years to do some slaughtering of his own, the streets of Iraq would be flowing with the blood of muslims courtesy of other muslims.

If England had oil and was governed by a ruthless dictatorship which acted as a suppressor of a genocidal civil war, then who knows how eager or hesitant the US would be to commandeer its oil.

cincybearcat

Abuskedti wrote:

If we did this to a white English speaking nation the citizens would bring down the government.

Probably less because of empathy and more because they'd fear what may be next and if it may happen to them.

American citizens have nothing to fear personally from an incoherent violent slaughter of Muslims.. so they just change the channel.

I think you are way off.

First the war is about oil.

Then the war is about killing 'brown people' (why do self-appointed enlightened ones always use this term?)

Then the war is about killing muslims (which is a religion, not a color)


If you think America or most Americans that are for the war are for it because we are killing 'brown people', then I seriously think you need to find a self-hate support group.

Abuskedti

cincybearcat wrote:

I think you are way off.

First the war is about oil.

Then the war is about killing 'brown people' (why do self-appointed enlightened ones always use this term?)

Then the war is about killing muslims (which is a religion, not a color)


If you think America or most Americans that are for the war are for it because we are killing 'brown people', then I seriously think you need to find a self-hate support group.

I have never said any of those three things. I believe the reason for the war is coming out. Mostly about providing stability and control in a region we had little involvement.

I only believe that the use of deadly force was easy and will continue because our nation has all but completely dehumanized the people that are dying.. and further we blame them for their own deaths.

We were never and even still don't consider ourselves a nation that will kill hundreds of thousands of people for political positon. Yet we are - it only requires that we first develop a contempt for the people we are about to kill. However subconscious it may be.

cincybearcat

Abuskedti wrote:

I have never said any of those three things. I believe the reason for the war is coming out. Mostly about providing stability and control in a region we had little involvement.

I only believe that the use of deadly force was easy and will continue because our nation has all but completely dehumanized the people that are dying.. and further we blame them for their own deaths.

We were never and even still don't consider ourselves a nation that will kill hundreds of thousands of people for political positon. Yet we are - it only requires that we first develop a contempt for the people we are about to kill. However subconscious it may be.

Here's the thing....I don't believe it is about color at all. I think that some Americans are ok with it because of the religious portion (Muslims) and they unfortunately identify all Muslims with the muslims that flew planes into the WTC. That is certainly wrong.

But to go out and say the US is a racist nation is absurd. Have you been outside the US? The US has it's fair share of difficulties, usually highlighted on the evening news, but other countries aren't that much different.

And what do you think some random guy living somewhere in the middle east thinks about a 'western looking whitey'? How about what they think about a Christian...a jew...

If you are going to start naming countries as racist, there are far more appropriate places to start.

Does th eUS have a problem with racism? Absolutely. Doe sthis make the US a racist nation...hell no.

Jeanwah

sponger wrote:

A stereotype based on race is racism.

Oh yeah? So, the stereotypes that African-Americans are better at basketball and Caucasion boys can't dance and Oriental people are smart is "racist"? No. These aren't racial comments, they are STEREOTYPES.

ster·e·o·type (st?r'?-?-t?p', stîr'-) Pronunciation Key
n.
A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.

- A too-simple and therefore distorted image of a group, such as “Football players are stupid” or “The English are cold and unfriendly people.”

Abuskedti

cincybearcat wrote:

Here's the thing....I don't believe it is about color at all. I think that some Americans are ok with it because of the religious portion (Muslims) and they unfortunately identify all Muslims with the muslims that flew planes into the WTC. That is certainly wrong.

But to go out and say the US is a racist nation is absurd. Have you been outside the US? The US has it's fair share of difficulties, usually highlighted on the evening news, but other countries aren't that much different.

And what do you think some random guy living somewhere in the middle east thinks about a 'western looking whitey'? How about what they think about a Christian...a jew...

If you are going to start naming countries as racist, there are far more appropriate places to start.

Does th eUS have a problem with racism? Absolutely. Doe sthis make the US a racist nation...hell no.

I disagree. Yes, there are nations that are worse, but surely that is a different discussion.

We were a racist nation when be bought sold tortured and enslaved blacks. We have corrected that which of course is a good thing. unfortunately, the only thing that seems to change is who we dehumanize. Its not blacks - now its Middle Easterners. Now we don't abuse them for labor - its for something else.

We don't have the moral fiber we think we have. We continue to happily ignore what we can brush under the carpet.

cincybearcat

Abuskedti wrote:

I disagree. Yes, there are nations that are worse, but surely that is a different discussion.

We were a racist nation when be bought sold tortured and enslaved blacks. We have corrected that which of course is a good thing. unfortunately, the only thing that seems to change is who we dehumanize. Its not blacks - now its Middle Easterners. Now we don't abuse them for labor - its for something else.

We don't have the moral fiber we think we have. We continue to happily ignore what we can brush under the carpet.

We don't ignore it. It's all over the place. In fact, we talk about it way too much.

EDIT: Talking about it way too much because all we do is blame and point fingers when it comes to race issues.

Abuskedti

Jeanwah wrote:

Oh yeah? So, the stereotypes that African-Americans are better at basketball and Caucasion boys can't dance and Oriental people are smart is "racist"? No. These aren't racial comments, they are STEREOTYPES.

ster·e·o·type (st?r'?-?-t?p', stîr'-) Pronunciation Key
n.
A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.

- A too-simple and therefore distorted image of a group, such as “Football players are stupid” or “The English are cold and unfriendly people.”

There is a distinction between the two words. However, if we take a stereotype to help smoth our conscience as be brutally kill people of a certain race or culture - it becomes racism.

I don't think anyone would compare Shock and Awe bombings in Iraq with saying white men can't jump.

Jimmy The Greek was fired for suggesting the reason blacks were better at sports stemed for slave breeding. Glen Beck was not for suggesting a US congressman could not be trusted simply because he was a Muslim.

Muslim to the average US citizen in interchangable with many other words - like Arab, Islam, Middle Eastern. If you use you power to hurt any of these things based on a stereotype, you are racist.

Abuskedti

cincybearcat wrote:

We don't ignore it. It's all over the place. In fact, we talk about it way too much.

EDIT: Talking about it way too much because all we do is blame and point fingers when it comes to race issues.

We only talk about it from our point of view. We don't examin the point of view of Iraqis - We don't show their innocence and suffering in this. There are many wonderful people that have been unjustly brutalized - we don't see that at all.

cincybearcat

Abuskedti wrote:

We only talk about it from our point of view. We don't examin the point of view of Iraqis - We don't show their innocence and suffering in this. There are many wonderful people that have been unjustly brutalized - we don't see that at all.

Well, I guess it is fairly obvious to say that I disagree with you.

I also disagree with Mother Teresa apparently (your quote)...I walk fast at work all the time, and I am not happy about it.

Jeanwah

Abuskedti wrote:

If you use you power to hurt any of these things based on a stereotype, you are racist.

I agree, but in a former post by someone, they implied that someone being blonde and blue-eyed as being "all-American" is a racial comment. It's not, since there's no hatred involved. It's just a stereotype.

Abuskedti

cincybearcat wrote:

Well, I guess it is fairly obvious to say that I disagree with you.

I also disagree with Mother Teresa apparently (your quote)...I walk fast at work all the time, and I am not happy about it.

You may not be happy about having to walk fast.. but while you are walking fast you are not unhappy...