How about "IF we lose, they will follow us home"

Ahnimus

Why not divide the country up into it's original countries?

Cosmo

Ahnimus wrote:

Why not divide the country up into it's original countries?

...
Only if you let THEM draw the lines.
That way... they can't come to us 87 years from now and their border skirmishes on us. Their doing, their fault.

B nice

we are fighing them over there some we don't have to fight them in afghanistan
ohhhh ..i mean over here


"they hate us for our freedom"
then why did they hate the soviets in afghanistan???
they hate invaders ...like everybody hates invaders....dumbass

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

...
Addendum:
Democracy only works if it is the Democracy you want them to have, right?

and democracy is....what exactly?



our way is better than your way
we would NEVER tolerate a dictator but you people need to because you behave like savages.
:rolleyes:

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

and democracy is....what exactly?

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Depends on who you ask... I guess.
We (Americans) seem to toss this around like it's the greatest thing... then, we sit around and complain about the people we elect to represent us... and most of us complain about representatives of other Americans, yet, haven't a clue of who our representative is.
Maybe we aren't the best ones to be spreading this shit around. Maybe we should just stick with what we do best... selling F-16s and Big Macs.
...
Oh... and making porn.

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

...
Depends on who you ask... I guess.
We (Americans) seem to toss this around like it's the greatest thing... then, we sit around and complain about the people we elect to represent us... and most of us complain about representatives of other Americans, yet, haven't a clue of who our representative is.
Maybe we aren't the best ones to be spreading this shit around. Maybe we should just stick with what we do best... selling F-16s and Big Macs.
...
Oh... and making porn.

well when you consider our democracy is supposedly based on the ancient greeks who were into exclusion then perhaps we are getting it right.

sponger

Cosmo wrote:

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Please do not take one sentance and comment on it, taking it out of the context of the overall idea.
Now... Shi'ites are Shi'ites... what don't you understand about that?
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I never said they 'Shouldn't be in control of their resources'... I said it would be the worst thing for America... not for an Iranian/Iraqi bloc. I think they should have a say in what they want to do with THEIR resources. It's not their fault we're fucking addicted to the shit... that's our fault.
And as for the term, 'Islamo-Fascists'... I believe that is a term used by is 'Lame-O-People' to scare us into believing that the boogie man wears a turban.
If fucking Iranians want Western Style freedoms... why do they continually elect guys like Ahamejinadad? Because Iran is run by their church... their Shi'ite church, that's why. Their President is the head of their government, not of Iran. The Grand ayatollah gets that job. and they love their God... and they believe their God... and they will follow their God. You make it sound like the Iranian people are peace loving consumer wannabes... if that's the case, why are we chomping at the bit to nuke their asses?
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Hoping for the best outcome is not a sound foriegn policy.

That contained so many misconceptions about Iranian politics that I have no idea where to begin? You think Ahmedinejad and the Ayatollah have anything to do with elections that represent the will of the Iranian people? wow.

You make it sound like the Iranian people are peace loving consumer wannabes... if that's the case, why are we chomping at the bit to nuke their asses?

This statement assumes that americans always want to nuke people who are truly enemies of peace.

You are way, way out there, and you seem to lack a very fundamental understanding of arab politics in spite of knowing some of the nomenclature.

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

and democracy is....what exactly?



our way is better than your way
we would NEVER tolerate a dictator but you people need to because you behave like savages.
:rolleyes:

...
Okay... I though about it.
Judging on how it works in Iraq... spreading Democracy the way the monkeys fling their Democracy around at the zoo... it's like this:
You don't know what you want... savages. You want to be like us... we are happy because we are free. You are not free.
So, here... take this ballot and vote for people you want to lead you to become more like us.
...
Wait... you voted for a guy who hates us... what? Oh, because you hate us. Well, that makes sense.. I guess. But, seriously... savages... you want to vote for people who will listen to us and do what is in our best interests, get it? That's De-mock-race-ee. Isn't freedom wonderful.

Cosmo

sponger wrote:

That contained so many misconceptions about Iranian politics that I have no idea where to begin? You think Ahmedinejad and the Ayatollah have anything to do with elections that represent the will of the Iranian people? wow.



This statement assumes that americans always want to nuke people who are truly enemies of peace.

You are way, way out there, and you seem to lack a very fundamental understanding of arab politics in spite of knowing some of the nomenclature.

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Fine.
You think that Iraq will move towards Iran only if we leave... I believe Iraq is already moving towards Iran.
Let it be.

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

...
Okay... I though about it.
Judging on how it works in Iraq... spreading Democracy the way the monkeys fling their Democracy around at the zoo... it's like this:
You don't know what you want... savages. You want to be like us... we are happy because we are free. You are not free.
So, here... take this ballot and vote for people you want to lead you to become more like us.
...
Wait... you voted for a guy who hates us... what? Oh, because you hate us. Well, that makes sense.. I guess. But, seriously... savages... you want to vote for people who will listen to us and do what is in our best interests, get it? That's De-mock-race-ee. Isn't freedom wonderful.

freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

sponger

Cosmo wrote:

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Fine.
You think that Iraq will move towards Iran only if we leave... I believe Iraq is already moving towards Iran.
Let it be.

Wait a minute now...I never said only if we leave. I said it will guarantee it if we do.

There's always a possibility that after ensuring a stable government with checks and balances that things will go sour and eventually revert back to totalitarianism. That's always a possibility. I did not on a single occasion it wasn't a possibility.

What I'm saying is that bugging out right now will guarantee that scenario, while no one can really say for sure that such a scenario can't be prevented if the troops stay.

Cosmo

sponger wrote:

Wait a minute now...I never said only if we leave. I said it will guarantee it if we do.

There's always a possibility that after ensuring a stable government with checks and balances that things will go sour and eventually revert back to totalitarianism. That's always a possibility. I did not on a single occasion it wasn't a possibility.

What I'm saying is that bugging out right now will guarantee that scenario, while no one can really say for sure that such a scenario can't be prevented if the troops stay.

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Guaranteeing. YOU?
Oh... that's right... you are the Middle Eastern expert, here. Since I know NOTHING about Iran... or Iraq... please, expound me with the wisdom you possess. You know more about Iranians than Iranians... uh... are you Iranian?
And don't point me to that Cliff Notes of the Internet, a.k.a. Wikipedia. I want you to explain WHY this is guaranteed to occur if we leave. (NOTE: "Because it's my opinion" is not a valid arguement)
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Thanx.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

catefrances wrote:

freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

omg...

(put's own head down on desk...hopes there is no truth at all to that statement, but is still not entirely convinced after several minutes).

....bartender....better make it a double!

Cosmo

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

omg...

(put's own head down on desk...hopes there is no truth at all to that statement, but is still not entirely convinced after several minutes).

....bartender....better make it a double!

...
Are you really on the Seychelles? I hear it is fricken' awesome there... other than all the spy stuff over there.
How's the surf?

catefrances

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

omg...

(put's own head down on desk...hopes there is no truth at all to that statement, but is still not entirely convinced after several minutes).

....bartender....better make it a double!

oh come on roland i was providing a little levity. if you don't get the reference that's not my problem.

but then think about it, we got all the freedom in the world supposedly and we have everything to lose. including interestingly enough that freedom.

sponger

Cosmo wrote:

...
Guaranteeing. YOU?
Oh... that's right... you are the Middle Eastern expert, here. Since I know NOTHING about Iran... or Iraq... please, expound me with the wisdom you possess. You know more about Iranians than Iranians... uh... are you Iranian?
And don't point me to that Cliff Notes of the Internet, a.k.a. Wikipedia. I want you to explain WHY this is guaranteed to occur if we leave. (NOTE: "Because it's my opinion" is not a valid arguement)
...
Thanx.

My knowledge of Iran is common knowledge, and I never claimed to be outside the reach of understanding of the people who live there.

What begs even more for explanation is your position that the Ayatollah and Ahmedinajad are the result of a real democracy and that the Iranian people as a whole are a nation of violent extremists who lust for violence. That is, after all, your distorted perspective that goes against the conventional wisdom....that is unless you are like most americans....I guess it was your logic that if the americans want to nuke them, then they must be enemies of peace.

Cosmo

sponger wrote:

My knowledge of Iran is common knowledge, and I never claimed to be outside the reach of understanding of the people who live there.

What begs even more for explanation is your position that the Ayatollah and Ahmedinajad are the result of a real democracy and that the Iranian people as a whole are a nation of violent extremists who lust for violence. That is, after all, your distorted perspective that goes against the conventional wisdom....that is unless you are like most americans....I guess it was your logic that if the americans want to nuke them, then they must be enemies of peace.

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Where did you get THAT from???
I just said that the Ayatollah (Grand Cleric) is the head of Iran and that the President (Ahjinameinadad) is the leader of the Iranian government. both of those statements are facts.
The President is elected (another fact)... I never said it was a 'real Democracy'... YOU extracted that from this one comment, "If fucking Iranians want Western Style freedoms... why do they continually elect guys like Ahamejinadad?". They get the same basic choices we get here for our president... shit or crap. But, they keep pulling the same, anti-American fucks, time and time again.
If you dispute this... please, explain to me... how is Iran's government structured and how did Ahameninjinadad get into the position of President? If I have this 'distorted perspective that goes against conventional wisdom'... then enlighten me, oh, wise one.
You need to quit interpreting other people's words to fit your opinion and just take them for what they are.
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AND... you STILL have not presented YOUR arguement. All you do is comment on my comments. How are YOU Guaranteeing that Iraq will fall under the influence of Iran if we leave? And how you YOU negate my arguement that Iraq is already falling into an alliance with Iran, dispite our current military presense?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

catefrances wrote:

oh come on roland i was providing a little levity. if you don't get the reference that's not my problem.

but then think about it, we got all the freedom in the world supposedly and we have everything to lose. including interestingly enough that freedom.

There's nothing serious to what I said either. I half agree with you, the other half is in ultimately in denial.

catefrances

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

There's nothing serious to what I said either. I half agree with you, the other half is in ultimately in denial.

which half?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Cosmo wrote:

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Are you really on the Seychelles? I hear it is fricken' awesome there... other than all the spy stuff over there.
How's the surf?

Dude, how I wish. I often close my eyes and dream. The Seychelles are chunks of India that broke off from Africa when India broke free from Africa and started heading north to where it is now. Little prehistoric time capsules scattered behind like pristine breadcrumbs. I would argue it is one of (if not) the most beautiful place on earth. Especially La Digue.

some pics:
http://www.webshots.com/search?query=seychelles&new=1&source=search_results_top