Iran to release British Soldiers.

Abuskedti

hailhailkc wrote:

Wow. Iran made a PR move and let 15 British soldiers go that THEY captured...most likely...illegally in the first place....and now since they pander to the world with an obvious PR move by letting them go...you're ready to trust them with "chemistry and physics" when Iran IS THE ONE spouting off about bombing Israel out of existence in the first place.

I suppose we should grant the Ayatollah the "Hidden Imam Peacemaker of the Year Award" since he didn't shove a hot poker up all of the Brits asses while he made them drink motor oil and endure electro shock therapy...right???...

Iran makes political threats - the US blew Iraq to bits.

You feel good about yourself? You feel that Hate is justified.. that somehow Iran is an Evil Nation? How many jews have they killed in the last 15 or so years? How many Arabs have the US killed?

inmytree

hailhailkc wrote:

Wow. Iran made a PR move and let 15 British soldiers go that THEY captured...most likely...illegally in the first place....and now since they pander to the world with an obvious PR move by letting them go...you're ready to trust them with "chemistry and physics" when Iran IS THE ONE spouting off about bombing Israel out of existence in the first place.

I suppose we should grant the Ayatollah the "Hidden Imam Peacemaker of the Year Award" since he didn't shove a hot poker up all of the Brits asses while he made them drink motor oil and endure electro shock therapy...right???...

you've got to admit, iran is playing bush and is stupid ways like a fiddle...

even flow?

hailhailkc wrote:

Wow. Iran made a PR move and let 15 British soldiers go that THEY captured...most likely...illegally in the first place....and now since they pander to the world with an obvious PR move by letting them go...you're ready to trust them with "chemistry and physics" when Iran IS THE ONE spouting off about bombing Israel out of existence in the first place.

I suppose we should grant the Ayatollah the "Hidden Imam Peacemaker of the Year Award" since he didn't shove a hot poker up all of the Brits asses while he made them drink motor oil and endure electro shock therapy...right???...

Perhaps you fail to see the difference in navy personal being in "enemy" waters and getting taken prisoner. As opposed to just laying a country to ruin. Now I do think you are wiser then what this post above spells out.

Don't worry my man, most will applaud when the States gets out of Iraq. Just as they applaud the Brits getting back their service people. In a world of posturing and playing games with human lives. The States aren't the only country rolling the dice.

NMyTree

A carefully orchestrated move by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and his buddies.

No doubt this was a calculated and contrived "crisis" with a "feel good " ending, right from the beginning, to try and make themselves look good.


I feel warm and fuzzy all over:rolleyes:

NCfan

Abuskedti wrote:

Iran makes political threats - the US blew Iraq to bits.

You feel good about yourself? You feel that Hate is justified.. that somehow Iran is an Evil Nation? How many jews have they killed in the last 15 or so years? How many Arabs have the US killed?

What an over-statement. We sure as hell did not blow Iraq to bits. The VAST majority of the country is intact, including Baghdad. Even still, I wonder how you can ignore the efforts by our military to NOT do exactly what you claim "blow the country to bits".

Remember when we had Al-Sadr surrounded in Fallujah a few years back. We could have gone in a taken him out and probably saved more lives in the future than it would have taken to finish him off. But we let him go and left the city becuase in order to get the fucker, we would have had to blow a bunch of shit up and kill a lot of civillians!

How can you ignore these things??? It's like you think Attila the Hun is running the show for the US over there.

Get real dude, you're way off base...

NCfan

inmytree wrote:

you've got to admit, iran is playing bush and is stupid ways like a fiddle...

I suppose so if you happen to like the tune Amedenijad is playing.

Most people see right through this shit. I think Bush has showed amazing restraint and poise dealing with this guy and the Grand Master Supreme Poobah Ayatollah and his Cronies.

For all the outrage expressed over Bush's unilateral action in Iraq, he has used every diplomatic means at his dissposal to settle our differences peacefully. And before you guys point out that we won't hold direct talks with Iran, think about why we won't. It's becuase chances are better than not the Iranians will not concede to any demands. They are in a position of power, they have the upper hand. If they do not give in, they will face no serious consequences - becuase our military option has been taken off the table due to world and US public opinion. Therefore, if the US says jump and the Iranians say no - we will look completely inept and insignificant.

People are so caught up in Iraq and pissed off about it that we shun the use of force all-together, which is a HUGE mistake and is the BIGGEST reason Amedenjad knows he doesn't have to listen to anything we say or suggest.

Bush let the EU three negotiate with Iran, and they just balked at every offer that was brought to the table. Russia even stepped in and said "Hey, we'll let you have a fucking reactor, but you have to give us all your spent fuel rods - AND we'll toss in a bunch of other insentives as well to sweeten the pot." But guess what happened? The Iranians said no way comrades!

Basically, Amedinijad is cocking his leg on world opinion. Nearly every major, influential nation on Earth has taken a position against Iran - even the Chinese, who have billions in oil contracts with them!

It is precisely becuase of our anti-war, no blood for oil bravado that we will have to fight a much, much costlier battle in the future - rather than let our reputation (that we are willing to use force) be our deterance in the current situation. If Iran thought there was a serious posibility we may go to war over the nuclear issue, the situation would look MUCH different.

"Like Gandhi’s nonviolent resistance, which would work only against the liberal British, and never against a Hitler or a Stalin, so too the Europeans’ moral posturing seemed to affect only the Americans, who singularly valued the respect of such civilized moralists." - Victor Davis Hanson.

These Mullahs don't respect our morals and values (those stated in the Consistution). In fact, they are of the exact opposite opion as us. They think we are both weak and wicked in that Americans don't put our faith before our country. This is why they hang gays, whip and beat women who have been RAPED, people! This is why they censor the news and outlaw things like Western music! They think we are heathens, and a spreading our hedonistic ways across the globe.

And now the are blatantly trying to blackmail us with our OWN technology. I wonder how long it would take an Islamic theocratic society to develop nuclear technology on their own? They are about to point our own fucking gun at us people!!! Wake the fuck up!!!!

The EU isn't gonna stop Iran. The UN isn't gonna stop Iran. China or Russia isn't gonna stop Iran. And if the US even thinks about it, the whole world will condem us for war-mongering/profiteering.

So we're just gonna sit back and let these guys piss all over us until they get the bomb. Then they are just gonna piss some more cause we are out of options at that point.

This is not a matter of "we should respect other's differences". This is a matter of good versus evil!

Abuskedti

NCfan wrote:

What an over-statement. We sure as hell did not blow Iraq to bits. The VAST majority of the country is intact, including Baghdad. Even still, I wonder how you can ignore the efforts by our military to NOT do exactly what you claim "blow the country to bits".

Remember when we had Al-Sadr surrounded in Fallujah a few years back. We could have gone in a taken him out and probably saved more lives in the future than it would have taken to finish him off. But we let him go and left the city becuase in order to get the fucker, we would have had to blow a bunch of shit up and kill a lot of civillians!

How can you ignore these things??? It's like you think Attila the Hun is running the show for the US over there.

Get real dude, you're way off base...

I know you summarily dismiss the 600,000 number dead in Iraq. Two plans crashed in New York and 3000 died. Did you see the weeks of bombing in Bagdad? There is a reason we don't report the dead - and a reason we label huge numbers of Iraqis as Insurgents - so their deaths don't count

While you insist on labeling virtually millions of people as evil - you will always be at war. You can never win - We are Atilla the Hun. He had a reason for killing people too which he thought richeous. Just as you do, and as Saddam did.

We must learn to understand that these are people.. very few - virtually zero are evil. they do things we can say are wrong - but so do we.

When I show the horrible things the US has done - you dismiss it as America bashing - what it should do is show that the other side is exactly the same and the only resolution can come from cooperation

Remember slavery.. do you need details of how horrible that was. That rivaled absolutely any other atrocity - every other - to include the Holocaust. We stole people children and sold them - we tortured and murdered them - we took away their dignity and forced them to work under horrible conditions - Imagine some of the things wayward teenagers and red neck drunks did with them on weekends.

Yet you don't say American's are evil. You don't say Germans are evil.

But you freely call Iraq and Iran and Syria and a host of others .. how you won't even allow to talk.. evil - and perpetuate a ridiculous war and hope to step it up wiping out the evil people....

I've been mentioning Martin Luther King lately.. because he was very wise. He was smart enough to know that American - the very people that tortured his people - murdered his people - he know we weren't evil - and his only solution was to talk to us - to respect us and to do it peacefully

well duh.. that works for the middle east too.. We have to stop being so sure they are so wrong and so incapable of being as wonderful as us

We are all the same!

You are way off base.

NCfan

Abuskedti wrote:

I know you summarily dismiss the 600,000 number dead in Iraq. Two plans crashed in New York and 3000 died. Did you see the weeks of bombing in Bagdad? There is a reason we don't report the dead - and a reason we label huge numbers of Iraqis as Insurgents - so their deaths don't count

While you insist on labeling virtually millions of people as evil - you will always be at war. You can never win - We are Atilla the Hun. He had a reason for killing people too which he thought richeous. Just as you do, and as Saddam did.

We must learn to understand that these are people.. very few - virtually zero are evil. they do things we can say are wrong - but so do we.

When I show the horrible things the US has done - you dismiss it as America bashing - what it should do is show that the other side is exactly the same and the only resolution can come from cooperation

Remember slavery.. do you need details of how horrible that was. That rivaled absolutely any other atrocity - every other - to include the Holocaust. We stole people children and sold them - we tortured and murdered them - we took away their dignity and forced them to work under horrible conditions - Imagine some of the things wayward teenagers and red neck drunks did with them on weekends.

Yet you don't say American's are evil. You don't say Germans are evil.

But you freely call Iraq and Iran and Syria and a host of others .. how you won't even allow to talk.. evil - and perpetuate a ridiculous war and hope to step it up wiping out the evil people....

I've been mentioning Martin Luther King lately.. because he was very wise. He was smart enough to know that American - the very people that tortured his people - murdered his people - he know we weren't evil - and his only solution was to talk to us - to respect us and to do it peacefully

well duh.. that works for the middle east too.. We have to stop being so sure they are so wrong and so incapable of being as wonderful as us

We are all the same!

You are way off base.

Look at what you wrote, and just think about it okay? Do you see any hypocracy? We are NOT all the same. As you pointed out, look at slavery and what an unimaginable nightmare that was. Well it existed because human beings have the propensity to be fundamentally evil.

Go to any maximum security prison and then come out and tell me "all of us are the same". Some people are just pure fucking evil my friend and there ain't no way around it.

Well, I think the Iranian people are just fine and dandy. It's their leadership that I have a problem with. Anybody who hangs another human becuase they are a homosexual is a fucking evil bigot in my book. Anybody who whips and beats a woman becuase she was "unchaste" because somebody raped her is fucking evil in my book. Like it's her fault or something becuase she was raped. That is unreal dude, and you are going to sit here and say that we are all the same? Would you do or support something like that?

Now, this isn't a matter of you say tomAto, I say TOmato. This isn't a matter of a different culture. This is about R E L I G I O N!!!! That means we will never be able to settle who is right and who is wrong - becuase you can't PROVE any of it!!!!! This is dangerous shit okay???

You have a misguided perspective on this problem.

Abuskedti

NCfan wrote:

Look at what you wrote, and just think about it okay? Do you see any hypocracy? We are NOT all the same. As you pointed out, look at slavery and what an unimaginable nightmare that was. Well it existed because human beings have the propensity to be fundamentally evil.

Go to any maximum security prison and then come out and tell me "all of us are the same". Some people are just pure fucking evil my friend and there ain't no way around it.

Well, I think the Iranian people are just fine and dandy. It's their leadership that I have a problem with. Anybody who hangs another human becuase they are a homosexual is a fucking evil bigot in my book. Anybody who whips and beats a woman becuase she was "unchaste" because somebody raped her is fucking evil in my book. Like it's her fault or something becuase she was raped. That is unreal dude, and you are going to sit here and say that we are all the same? Would you do or support something like that?

Now, this isn't a matter of you say tomAto, I say TOmato. This isn't a matter of a different culture. This is about R E L I G I O N!!!! That means we will never be able to settle who is right and who is wrong - becuase you can't PROVE any of it!!!!! This is dangerous shit okay???

You have a misguided perspective on this problem.

I am not sure what you even just said. We hung and raped people because they are black. It was not just a few bad apples. It was virtually all Americans. If blacks believe all white Americans were evil - and refused to reason with us - and fought and killed at every opportunity .. we'd still be at war with them and they would still be slaves. We were wrong and negotiation between black and while yielded a great reduction in "evil".

People do bad things.. we have to learn. You are choosing the hate and fight option against Iraneans because they are doing exactly the same thing we did. You can call them dumb because its religion - but we are driven by religion too.

Iraneans can be dealt with - even those that have done evil things. Slaves did not only work with the good whites - they'd have been at a loss to find any. They knew we were people - we were not evil. but we are capable of straying to evil ways. Your prison example is perfect - when people find them selves in these situations - they do bad things - all people - white people, Iraneans, religious nuts, and athiests.

finding a perceived higher ground then hating those different and correcting with weapons - is evil my friend. you are pushing an evil soluting because you have found a way to make it look righeous in your eyes. Your actions are not so richeous when viewed from the other side.

We can never hope to kill or render impotent all the evil people to bring peace - because during a hateful war - everyone will behave as though they are evil.

Ahnimus

ajedigecko wrote:

and iran..........iran so far away.
i couldn't get away.

sorry.........the song always comes to mind when i read Iran.

It's pronounced ee-rawn.

NCfan

Abuskedti wrote:

I am not sure what you even just said. We hung and raped people because they are black. It was not just a few bad apples. It was virtually all Americans. If blacks believe all white Americans were evil - and refused to reason with us - and fought and killed at every opportunity .. we'd still be at war with them and they would still be slaves. We were wrong and negotiation between black and while yielded a great reduction in "evil".

People do bad things.. we have to learn. You are choosing the hate and fight option against Iraneans because they are doing exactly the same thing we did. You can call them dumb because its religion - but we are driven by religion too.

Iraneans can be dealt with - even those that have done evil things. Slaves did not only work with the good whites - they'd have been at a loss to find any. They knew we were people - we were not evil. but we are capable of straying to evil ways. Your prison example is perfect - when people find them selves in these situations - they do bad things - all people - white people, Iraneans, religious nuts, and athiests.

finding a perceived higher ground then hating those different and correcting with weapons - is evil my friend. you are pushing an evil soluting because you have found a way to make it look righeous in your eyes. Your actions are not so richeous when viewed from the other side.

We can never hope to kill or render impotent all the evil people to bring peace - because during a hateful war - everyone will behave as though they are evil.

You're missing the point. It's not about fighting people. Hell, I don't want a war, and I hope to god we don't fight Iran. It's about the "THREAT" of force. Like it or not, consequences make people behave. This is why we have laws that govern our society. Many of them are designed to DETUR bad behavior and crime. What would happen if suddenly there were no laws anymore in the US? All hell would break loose. Our society would crumble.

Well this is the exact same thing going on with Iran. They can do whatever they want to do, including obtaining nuclear weapons becuase THEY KNOW WE WILL NOT DO ANYTHING! They know they will face no serious repurcussions. There is no deturent. Do you get it now???

We have police in our cities. For the most part, they won't fuck with you if you obey the law. But if you break it, you know damn well they are gonna come after you.

Well, there is nobody gonna come after Iran okay? They know this, and they realize they have a free pass to do what they wish.

This is a serious problem.

Abuskedti

NCfan wrote:

You're missing the point. It's not about fighting people. Hell, I don't want a war, and I hope to god we don't fight Iran. It's about the "THREAT" of force. Like it or not, consequences make people behave. This is why we have laws that govern our society. Many of them are designed to DETUR bad behavior and crime. What would happen if suddenly there were no laws anymore in the US? All hell would break loose. Our society would crumble.

Well this is the exact same thing going on with Iran. They can do whatever they want to do, including obtaining nuclear weapons becuase THEY KNOW WE WILL NOT DO ANYTHING! They know they will face no serious repurcussions. There is no deturent. Do you get it now???

We have police in our cities. For the most part, they won't fuck with you if you obey the law. But if you break it, you know damn well they are gonna come after you.

Well, there is nobody gonna come after Iran okay? They know this, and they realize they have a free pass to do what they wish.

This is a serious problem.

I don't say we should "let Iran do what they want". I said we should continue to dilligently work with them. Thats how our laws evolved - through comprimise, trial and error. There is never a good reason to not consider all points of view. There is never a good reason to consider anyone to be less than yourself.

If we are truly concerned with Iran and its nuclear or other military intensions - then we should have many high ranking US diplomats living in Iran - learning and teaching.

If teh US believes the current Iranean leadership is evil to the core and can not be talked to or trusted .. then the US is by far the greatest reason for the tension.

I don't need to hear about any atrocities committed by Iran.. We know we have committed our own. We need to work hard to move ahead - to make improvements.

That is the only hope we have.

hailhailkc

Abuskedti wrote:

If teh US believes the current Iranean leadership is evil to the core and can not be talked to or trusted .. then the US is by far the greatest reason for the tension.

If that's your logic, then the opposite holds true also.

mammasan

NCfan wrote:

It is precisely becuase of our anti-war, no blood for oil bravado that we will have to fight a much, much costlier battle in the future - rather than let our reputation (that we are willing to use force) be our deterance in the current situation. If Iran thought there was a serious posibility we may go to war over the nuclear issue, the situation would look MUCH different.

This is complete bullshit. We have no military options against Iran because our militray is completely overextended tied up in a war we had no business getting into. Blaming those oppossed to the war is a nice cop-out for those that are to foolish and proud to admit that our involvment in Iraq is a huge mistake and is leaving us vulnerable.

This administration has shown no regrad to public or world opinion. If the president had the resources he would attack Iran regardless of what the people say, he showed that with attacking Iraq. So keep fooling yourself thinking that Iraq was a noble venture and blaming the anti-war crowd for our failure to reign in Iran. The blame for both lies squarely on the shoulders of the people who led us into Iraq and got us stuck there, unable to use our military if any other situation where to arise.

NCfan

Abuskedti wrote:

I don't say we should "let Iran do what they want". I said we should continue to dilligently work with them. Thats how our laws evolved - through comprimise, trial and error. There is never a good reason to not consider all points of view. There is never a good reason to consider anyone to be less than yourself.




If we are truly concerned with Iran and its nuclear or other military intensions - then we should have many high ranking US diplomats living in Iran - learning and teaching.

If teh US believes the current Iranean leadership is evil to the core and can not be talked to or trusted .. then the US is by far the greatest reason for the tension.

I don't need to hear about any atrocities committed by Iran.. We know we have committed our own. We need to work hard to move ahead - to make improvements.

That is the only hope we have.

You say we should not just "let Iran do what they want." But again, without the OPTION of force, that is exactly the message you are sending them. This is what people in a weakened position do to contend with stronger adversaries - they say let's talk. Wheather it's a kid and a bully on a playground or a robber with a gun to a victims head... The stronger adversary laughs, and says why? I have everything I need. I don't want your influence on me becuase clearly you are going to try and negotiate my strength away from me. Most people don't like giving up their power, and neither will the Iranians.

The problem with "learning and teaching" is that there is nothing to "learn" or "teach". If there is, please let me know what it might be. You act as if there is some sort of "missunderstanding". What is it that we don't understand about Iran's leadership? They have plainly and repeatedly layed out their positions. We have plainly and repeatedly layed out ours. I don't think anybody is confused or doesn't understand.

We're not going to go over there, start teaching and all of a sudden "voila" they will have an epiphaney and say, "ya know what? Subjigating a people to a religion is pretty messed up and I think we should quit doing that now."

This is as engrained in them as our belief in democracy is engrained in us. We have and will continue to defend these beliefs and sacrifice our lives if the circumstanes call for it to preserve the democratic model. maybe you won't, but there are over a million people in our military that will. Likewise, they will do the same.

I mean, you're basically trying to tell them not to believe in their religion anymore. That has got to be one of the hardest things imaginable to convince somebody who has faith. And not only are you trying to convince their president, you are trying to convince his entire regime. This is simply immpossible. It is no strategy for success. Sure, many people would see the light over time. But these guys aren't going to give up their beliefs now. that would be like telling a US president to dissafilliate with their party or something while their in office - it's just not going to happen.

I agree with you in theory. But your view is based on what you wish the world to be, not what it is; what you wish humans were like, not our true nature.

We have been fighting and killing each other for 3 million years. Just becuase we have all of our great technology, and Americans live the easy life - doesn't mean the rest of the world has decided life is too good and short to go fight somebody for our beliefs.

Collin

NCfan wrote:

But again, without the OPTION of force, that is exactly the message you are sending them. This is what people in a weakened position do to contend with stronger adversaries - they say let's talk. Wheather it's a kid and a bully on a playground or a robber with a gun to a victims head... The stronger adversary laughs, and says why? I have everything I need. I don't want your influence on me becuase clearly you are going to try and negotiate my strength away from me. Most people don't like giving up their power, and neither will the Iranians.

So if the US should start an illegal war, if the government of the US should start an illegal war, you'd want other countries like China or Russia and the European countries combined to threat or act with force? Bombs Washington?

mammasan

Collin wrote:

So if the US should start an illegal war, if the government of the US should start an illegal war, you'd want other countries like China or Russia and the European countries combined to threat or act with force? Bombs Washington?

Of course not. That line of logic only applies to us. It's the do as we say and not as we do philosophy.

NCfan

mammasan wrote:

This is complete bullshit. We have no military options against Iran because our militray is completely overextended tied up in a war we had no business getting into. Blaming those oppossed to the war is a nice cop-out for those that are to foolish and proud to admit that our involvment in Iraq is a huge mistake and is leaving us vulnerable.

This administration has shown no regrad to public or world opinion. If the president had the resources he would attack Iran regardless of what the people say, he showed that with attacking Iraq. So keep fooling yourself thinking that Iraq was a noble venture and blaming the anti-war crowd for our failure to reign in Iran. The blame for both lies squarely on the shoulders of the people who led us into Iraq and got us stuck there, unable to use our military if any other situation where to arise.

You are being narrow-minded. The might of any army is only as strong as the people who fill it's ranks. If Americans truly wanted to stand up for our beliefs, we could admit our mistakes in Iraq yet still hold firm in the face of the Iranian threat. But, Amedenijad knows that it is the American people who do not want to fight. And he knows, by extension that we are the ones who are limiting our military options - not the conflict in Iraq.

During WWII in a MUCH smaller and economically weaker time, we fielded over 4 million solidiers in the field and sacrificed what was needed to defeat our enemies. My point in bringing this up is that if there is a will, there is a way - and everybody knows we have no will...

I don't blame those opposed to the war in Iraq. I blame those who use the botched mission in Iraq as a referendum to declare the use of any force as being an unsound method to make the world safer. If you look at the polls or listen to most media outlets, you get the overwhelming feeling that fighting is not the way the West wants to deal with threats.

Amedinijad would disagree with you. He is getting his hands on a bomb to ensure the survival of his political/religious beliefs. Americans and Europeans are now claiming that we want to rely on moral posturing to detur threats to our beliefs.

Which one do you think is more powerful? Can you not see in the behavior of North Korea, that anybody with a bomb can do whatever they please? They can jerk us around and blackmail us all day long. I respect the hell out of Bill Clinton's initiative to get Kim Jong Il to scrap his nuke program. But it is just a part of history now that the North Koreans pissed in his face and did it anyways. Now they have a bomb, and they don't have to sit down at any negotiating table if they do not want to.

The same will happen with Iran.

Abuskedti

NCfan wrote:

You say we should not just "let Iran do what they want." But again, without the OPTION of force, that is exactly the message you are sending them. This is what people in a weakened position do to contend with stronger adversaries - they say let's talk. Wheather it's a kid and a bully on a playground or a robber with a gun to a victims head... The stronger adversary laughs, and says why? I have everything I need. I don't want your influence on me becuase clearly you are going to try and negotiate my strength away from me. Most people don't like giving up their power, and neither will the Iranians.

The problem with "learning and teaching" is that there is nothing to "learn" or "teach". If there is, please let me know what it might be. You act as if there is some sort of "missunderstanding". What is it that we don't understand about Iran's leadership? They have plainly and repeatedly layed out their positions. We have plainly and repeatedly layed out ours. I don't think anybody is confused or doesn't understand.

We're not going to go over there, start teaching and all of a sudden "voila" they will have an epiphaney and say, "ya know what? Subjigating a people to a religion is pretty messed up and I think we should quit doing that now."

This is as engrained in them as our belief in democracy is engrained in us. We have and will continue to defend these beliefs and sacrifice our lives if the circumstanes call for it to preserve the democratic model. maybe you won't, but there are over a million people in our military that will. Likewise, they will do the same.

I mean, you're basically trying to tell them not to believe in their religion anymore. That has got to be one of the hardest things imaginable to convince somebody who has faith. And not only are you trying to convince their president, you are trying to convince his entire regime. This is simply immpossible. It is no strategy for success. Sure, many people would see the light over time. But these guys aren't going to give up their beliefs now. that would be like telling a US president to dissafilliate with their party or something while their in office - it's just not going to happen.

I agree with you in theory. But your view is based on what you wish the world to be, not what it is; what you wish humans were like, not our true nature.

We have been fighting and killing each other for 3 million years. Just becuase we have all of our great technology, and Americans live the easy life - doesn't mean the rest of the world has decided life is too good and short to go fight somebody for our beliefs.

You started this whole response with an error. I never suggested we remove the option of force. That is always an option. The consequences of force are devistating... there is the direct loss of life and the destruction of relationships.. Unless we can defeat them and make them a state.. we have to have a relationship - and they don't consider us their parents who can punish them whenever we feel they are acting up.

Iran has done nothing to justify the use of force. So we should be talking to arrange a relationship that reduces that likelihood.. not ignore then and say we will kill them if they continue doing what they are doing.

if we want to change many of their behaviors and they want the same from us - Lets talk!

mammasan

NCfan wrote:

You are being narrow-minded. The might of any army is only as strong as the people who fill it's ranks. If Americans truly wanted to stand up for our beliefs, we could admit our mistakes in Iraq yet still hold firm in the face of the Iranian threat. But, Amedenijad knows that it is the American people who do not want to fight. And he knows, by extension that we are the ones who are limiting our military options - not the conflict in Iraq.

During WWII in a MUCH smaller and economically weaker time, we fielded over 4 million solidiers in the field and sacrificed what was needed to defeat our enemies. My point in bringing this up is that if there is a will, there is a way - and everybody knows we have no will...

I don't blame those opposed to the war in Iraq. I blame those who use the botched mission in Iraq as a referendum to declare the use of any force as being an unsound method to make the world safer. If you look at the polls or listen to most media outlets, you get the overwhelming feeling that fighting is not the way the West wants to deal with threats.

Amedinijad would disagree with you. He is getting his hands on a bomb to ensure the survival of his political/religious beliefs. Americans and Europeans are now claiming that we want to rely on moral posturing to detur threats to our beliefs.

Which one do you think is more powerful? Can you not see in the behavior of North Korea, that anybody with a bomb can do whatever they please? They can jerk us around and blackmail us all day long. I respect the hell out of Bill Clinton's initiative to get Kim Jong Il to scrap his nuke program. But it is just a part of history now that the North Koreans pissed in his face and did it anyways. Now they have a bomb, and they don't have to sit down at any negotiating table if they do not want to.

The same will happen with Iran.

During WWII we where able to field a larger fighting force because people believed in the cause we where fighting for. We where attacked by Japan and then had Germany declare war on us, in responce to our declaration on Japan. Our little experiment in Iraq has shaken the people's faith in our government. When your leaders lead you to war under false pretenses this is what happens, the people no longer support the president. Even with this we still could have dealt with Iran had our military not been tied up in Iraq. Iraq is the catalyst in this problem. Our troops are there so they can't be used in any military operation against Iran. The people don't support military force against Iran because they no longer trust their government. We where misled once and are not about to take that chance again. So who is to blame, surely not the military nor the people but the leaders who have entrenched us in this situation with our hands tied behind our backs.

Unlike what you believe, I believe diplomacy should be completely exausted including direct talks. Even if Iran spits in our face so what. At least we would have demonstrated to the world that we have exausted every possible non-violent method to bring this conflict to an end. Then there is no room for people to say that we should have exausted diplomatic means before turning to force, but no this administration would rather flex muscle it doesn't have and continue to have this asshole laugh at us knowing fully well he can do what ever the hell he wants.