2078 died in Iraq in March

NCfan

Abuskedti wrote:

600,000 Iraqis have dies, that is not the few.

The principle is solid.

First, that is not an accurate count. Secondly, the number is relative. Look at the sacrifices countries made in WWII to defeat the Nazis. All told, I'm sure over a hundred million people were killed as a result of the war to defeat Hitler. Third, if you think that is bad - wait until we leave. Our military presense is the only thing keeping things as civilized as they are.

NCfan

RainDog wrote:

Do you think any of this would have turned out better had Canada invaded us, overthrew our government, and attempted to remedy it themselves?


Saddam provided security. That didn't help. What do you think we can do to stop people from attempting to achieve their religious goals? Saddam tried it by supressing the shit out of them - and it only worked as long as he was in power, and ended up in the deaths of hundreds of thousands (not to be confused with the 148 (one hundred and forty eight) that he was executed for). Is that the role we want?

No I don't. But I bet if the KKK attacked Canada with an operation comperable to 9/11, and our pulpits were spewing our racists garbage and threatening to kill anyone who doesn't conceed their beliefs to our "faith" then I bet people would do something about us.

inmytree

NCfan wrote:

Go ahead and believe whatever you want to believe, I've got no problem with different beliefs and I will respect them all day long so much as they are founded on solid principles and arguements.

But by your rationale, the sacrifice and struggle of the few is not worth the benefit of the many. This is surely an empty arguement, as both history and human nature have shown us over and over.

It might sound good to talk about who wouldn't have died or what might have happened had the US not overthrown the government of Saddam Hussien. But when you frame the struggle of everyday Iraqi's in the context of history, your arguement is just a cheap shot based in nothing.

How many thousands of blacks were lynched, beaten, unfairly imprisoned and had to face daily percecution, bigotry and state sponsored racism for decades in the American south?

Do you not think the stuggles and sacrifice of so many who fought this system and this plague of American society were worth it? Do you think Martin Luther King Jr. would say his assisnation wasn't worth the impact it had on ending segregation? At any rate, I think you get my point. Things in life are bigger than individuals. They are bigger than public opinion or the distaste for a particular person.

The issue in Iraq is security, bottom line. It's not about ideology or this or that. It's about people feeling and being safe, plain and simple. There is no breathing room for rational leaders to emerge and guide their followers to form a better, decent society. Becuase as soon as they emerge they are a target for assisanation. They will be murdered by radical elements who are hell bent on forcing their way of life on everyone else through acts of terror.

I'm not talking about targeting Saddam's leadership with a precision-guided bomb that kills him and 15 civilians when it explodes. I'm talking about people who strap bombs to themselves and go into health clinics and markets and purposely strike down inocent women and children to achieve their political and religious goals.

If somebody opposes the war, then fine - there are a million different reasons for me to respect that view. But yours, and about 90% of the other reasons people recklessly post on this forum are complete bullshit.

woooooo haaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

OMG, let me catch my breath....

you pulled out the Martin Luther King Jr. card....

baaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

how fucking retarded....did you get that from you hero Less Nessman...oh, wait, andy sullivan or vic "don't know dick" hanson...?

let see, since this thing has gone bad, people like you like to pull out random shit to cover you ass for supporting stupid policy...this one is the best yet...I've seen the "well, more died is WWII" and "well, Clinton said he had WMD's"...and other crap...

but this one has got to take the cake...

good work, lady...and thanks for the laugh...

by the way, how many car bombs were going off in Iraq prior to our occupation...? a simple question...can you answer it...?

RainDog

NCfan wrote:

No I don't. But I bet if the KKK attacked Canada with an operation comperable to 9/11, and our pulpits were spewing our racists garbage and threatening to kill anyone who doesn't conceed their beliefs to our "faith" then I bet people would do something about us.

Like what, attack England?

NCfan

inmytree wrote:

woooooo haaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

OMG, let me catch my breath....

you pulled out the Martin Luther King Jr. card....

baaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

how fucking retarded....did you get that from you hero Less Nessman...oh, wait, andy sullivan or vic "don't know dick" hanson...?

let see, since this thing has gone bad, people like you like to pull out random shit to cover you ass for supporting stupid policy...this one is the best yet...I've seen the "well, more died is WWII" and "well, Clinton said he had WMD's"...and other crap...

but this one has got to take the cake...

good work, lady...and thanks for the laugh...

by the way, how many car bombs were going off in Iraq prior to our occupation...? a simple question...can you answer it...?

What's wrong with using him as an example to support my point?

NCfan

RainDog wrote:

Like what, attack England?

I see why you would draw that conclusion, but you have to understand that the easiest way to reform gulf state autocrats or theorcracies is to target the most vulnerable one. Given the past history of Saddam and his atrocities, he and his government was the obvious choice after afghanistan.

Abuskedti

NCfan wrote:

The principle is solid.

First, that is not an accurate count. Secondly, the number is relative. Look at the sacrifices countries made in WWII to defeat the Nazis. All told, I'm sure over a hundred million people were killed as a result of the war to defeat Hitler. Third, if you think that is bad - wait until we leave. Our military presense is the only thing keeping things as civilized as they are.

Who are we trying to defeat?

inmytree

NCfan wrote:

What's wrong with using him as an example to support my point?

I see you won't answer my simple question...?

to answer this yours....nothing...it makes no sense, but the answer is nothing...unless you saying bush is like MLK, attempting to free the Iraqi's from racial oppression...

is that what you're saying...?

inmytree

NCfan wrote:

I see why you would draw that conclusion, but you have to understand that the easiest way to reform gulf state autocrats or theorcracies is to target the most vulnerable one. Given the past history of Saddam and his atrocities, he and his government was the obvious choice after afghanistan.

ooooh...the "experiment" crap again...:rolleyes:

NCfan

Abuskedti wrote:

Who are we trying to defeat?

In the short term, anybody in Iraq who brandishes a weapon other than the U.S. military or Iraqi security forces. In the long term, we are trying to defeat political systems that oppress their people, leaving them desparate and vulnerable to militant ideologies. Happy people don't join cults or kill themselves. Those are the actions of desparate people, which the Middle East is in no short supply of these days due to the greedy, corrupt ruling class in many nations in the region.

NCfan

inmytree wrote:

I see you won't answer my simple question...?

to answer this yours....nothing...it makes no sense, but the answer is nothing...unless you saying bush is like MLK, attempting to free the Iraqi's from racial oppression...

is that what you're saying...?

Why should I address your point, when you fail to address mine? You seem to get all bent out of shape that I mentioned MLK, but now you seem to think there's nothing wrong with that.

If you would acknowledge my position, you wouldn't ask your question in the first place becuase you would no the answer is "it doesn't matter".

inmytree

NCfan wrote:

Why should I address your point, when you fail to address mine? You seem to get all bent out of shape that I mentioned MLK, but now you seem to think there's nothing wrong with that.

If you would acknowledge my position, you wouldn't ask your question in the first place becuase you would no the answer is "it doesn't matter".

{{{{yaaaawwwnnn}}}}

cry me a river...honestly, I was laughing at you attempt to link Iraq with MLK...sorry, I'm just being honest...

listen, you seem to have these grand ideas that war is a good thing...you see, I don't...I think that's were we differ...you think you can't have peace without war, and I guess your right, because if there were no war, we wouldn't even need to have a word for "peace"....personally, I really have no idea how anyone can continue to justify the course the US has taken and is still on...this war is driving this nation in a wrong direction...we are seen as aggressors...many around the world see the US as being as bad as the Nazi's....and yes, we should care about how others view us...because at the end of the day we are all linked...and by we I mean humans...and no matter what, we will need help from others someday...and if we piss everyone off, we'll just die alone, broken and tattered...

FredFlintstone

NCfan wrote:

In the short term, anybody in Iraq who brandishes a weapon other than the U.S. military or Iraqi security forces. In the long term, we are trying to defeat political systems that oppress their people, leaving them desparate and vulnerable to militant ideologies. Happy people don't join cults or kill themselves. Those are the actions of desparate people, which the Middle East is in no short supply of these days due to the greedy, corrupt ruling class in many nations in the region.

"Iraqi security forces"...thats rich.

I am sure you would also want to include our dear Saudi Arabian and Pakistani friends in the corrupt ruling class as well right? Suuuuuuure....considering we have dumped BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS of dollars to support these governments militarily and economically in the last 10 years.

The US governemnt doesnt give a flyin fuck about the plight of Iraqi civlians or anyone else in the middle east. We only care about their oil. Once you come to terms with this fact, you will see things more clearly.

Abookamongstthemany

FredFlintstone wrote:

"Iraqi security forces"...thats rich.

I am sure you would also want to include our dear Saudi Arabian and Pakistani friends in the corrupt ruling class as well right? Suuuuuuure....considering we have dumped BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS of dollars to support these governments militarily and economically in the last 10 years.

The US governemnt doesnt give a flyin fuck about the plight of Iraqi civlians or anyone else in the middle east. We only care about their oil. Once you come to terms with this fact, you will see things more clearly.

I almost said the exact same thing to my sister in an arguement yesterday. Yes, as crazy as it sounds, I have an ultra-conservative, church going sister three years younger than me.

FredFlintstone

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I almost said the exact same thing to my sister in an arguement yesterday. Yes, as crazy as it sounds, I have an ultra-conservative, church going sister three years younger than me.

I find it hilarious that all of a sudden people like GWB, Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, Condi Rice, etc are suddenly Ghandi like beings who seek to bring freedom to the world. Give me a fucking break. What have they ever done in their lives prior takin office that would indicate they were anything but oil rich businessmen and woman. Look at their histories...not exactly grassroots Peace Corps stuff. More like war profiteering, oil drilling with our Saudi buds, Chevron oil tankers, etc...not to mention PNAC.

FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM

norm

I'm still laughing that Dr. King was brought into this argument. Just when you think you've seen everything on the train......:)

Abookamongstthemany

FredFlintstone wrote:

I find it hilarious that all of a sudden people like GWB, Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, Condi Rice, etc are suddenly Ghandi like beings who seek to bring freedom to the world. Give me a fucking break. What have they ever done in their lives prior takin office that would indicate they were anything but oil rich businessmen and woman. Look at their histories...not exactly grassroots Peace Corps stuff. More like war profiteering, oil drilling with our Saudi buds, Chevron oil tankers, etc...not to mention PNAC.

FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM

Exactly!!! That's how my sister views it. Ske kept saying 'We took an evil dictator out...he killed thousands of people!'

And our answer is to help him kill people when it suits us, then take him out and we then kill thousands more...gotta love that logic!!

jlew24asu

FredFlintstone wrote:

"Iraqi security forces"...thats rich.

I am sure you would also want to include our dear Saudi Arabian and Pakistani friends in the corrupt ruling class as well right? Suuuuuuure....considering we have dumped BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS of dollars to support these governments militarily and economically in the last 10 years.

The US governemnt doesnt give a flyin fuck about the plight of Iraqi civlians or anyone else in the middle east. We only care about their oil. Once you come to terms with this fact, you will see things more clearly.

while I dont share your very enthusiastic closed minded blinding opinion. you do realize its in our interest, as well as the worlds, to protect that oil

Abookamongstthemany

jlew24asu wrote:

while I dont share your very enthusiastic closed minded blinding opinion. you do realize its in our interest, as well as the worlds, to protect that oil

If everyone's so down with that and it's in everyone's best interest then why didn't they come out and say that in the first place...hell, they won't even say it now.

Cosmo

know1 wrote:

How many died in the U.S. during March?

...
Maybe if a foriegn Army were here to protect us, the number would be lower... right? When 2 dozen headless bodies are dumped in the streets of Washington D.C. on a regular basis... come back with your little comparison.