Thank you. I am use to getting beat up for having the minority opinion here. I realize this board is incredibly left-leaning and I am OK with that. That said, I also know that my stance on this issue is the majority opinion in America.
As for your question, I do not believe Iraq would be better off today with Saddam/his sons in power. That said, I do not know for sure. Once again, I don't think someone can properly answer that question yet because we don't know what Iraq will become and whether the sacrafices made were worthwhile. At this point, I'd hedge to say yes they are better off and I think that will only become more apparent as time passes. But, IMHO only time will tell for sure. Moreover, the end result being a plus... does not necessarily make the action (pre-emtive strike) a plus because it rationalizes pre-emtive action in the future by other countries. The entire "Iraq" situation is tricky.
very true. only time will tell. I shutter to think, however, what life would be like when Saddam's sons would have taken over. they are young (meaning they would rule Iraq for decades) and by many accounts much worse then their father in terms of brutality.
that said, I still do not think we should have gone to war with Iraq, but can't change that now.
here we go again little guy. you need to learn to accept that people have different opinion then you. when you become an adult one day, you will realize that people simply agree to disagree.
Drop your bullshit of "when you become an adult" one day, as if you are more superior to me or something. You aren't. And you don't even know my age, so your whole "you sound younger" is actually one of the most pathetic attempts at trying to 'figure something out'. Oh, and it's funny that you say "We all have our opinions" but try to sound more superior to me.
When I say "you get up and leave" etc, obviously that's my opinion and I'm disagreeing with you, so wtf is the point of this bullshit you keep spouting that I don't respect what you have to say or something?
yes I do agree with this
racial profiling is cool when it doesn't happen to you.
wtf?
not the way its currently written but some of the bill I agree with.
which part do you agree with...?
yes
occupations should never be allowed... but I guess in the case of our country, international law doesn't matter?
no
so you don't agree with invading and occupying Iraq, yet you try to justify it by saying "atleast theyre better off now"...
:rolleyes: uh huh
lol, you think racial profiling is ok, and say Arabs/Muslims don't have their freedoms limited? haha, ok... and I'm sure you haven't seen any of the news stories of Muslims being abused..
so its my fault that musilm extremist attacked my country?
I don't understand what you're saying here. Nowhere in my post did it even hint towards this... unless you're saying that muslims deserve to be treated specially and poorly because of that.
depends which Iraqi you ask. Saddam performed genocide on many of his own people and made people live in complete fear for those who opposed him. and to say his sons would have made life better is ridiculous. that leads me to believe you have no idea about who those men were.
And I suppose killing 1,000,000+ people is not a crime? Of course, the Iraqi people are NOT living in fear now, that would be ridiculous.
I'm not sayign Saddam was a nice guy, but most Iraqis think that life under him was better than life under the American occupation. It's not that Saddam was good, it's that we're just that fucking bad.
Drop your bullshit of "when you become an adult" one day, as if you are more superior to me or something. You aren't. And you don't even know my age, so your whole "you sound younger" is actually one of the most pathetic attempts at trying to 'figure something out'. Oh, and it's funny that you say "We all have our opinions" but try to sound more superior to me.
When I say "you get up and leave" etc, obviously that's my opinion and I'm disagreeing with you, so wtf is the point of this bullshit you keep spouting that I don't respect what you have to say or something?
you are young and immature. its very clear to see even more so with your reaction stated above.. I'm not trying to insult you, just making an observation.
the parts of the bill that allows the government to better proctect americans while not infringing on our liberties. if you want to get in line by line details, make a new thread.
I'm not sayign Saddam was a nice guy, but most Iraqis think that life under him was better than life under the American occupation. It's not that Saddam was good, it's that we're just that fucking bad.
like I said, this remains to be seen. there are many positives as well as negatives since saddam was taken from power. history hasnt been written on this yet.
Thank you. I am use to getting beat up for having the minority opinion here. I realize this board is incredibly left-leaning and I am OK with that. That said, I also know that my stance on this issue is the majority opinion in America.
Not to say I disbelieve you, but I'd love to see your proof that the majority opinion in America would be positive about President Bush, even in regards to his handling of 9/11.
If an attack happened tomorrow on our soil, I wouldn't say he did as good of a job.
But, once again, the attacks are not comparable. I'm not alone in that assessment.
Another attack on our country did not occur for seven years after the largest attack in our country's history under Bush's watch. That's a simple fact, and IMHO he deserves credit for that even from people who think he did a terrible job elsewhere. The only person who can be compared to Bush in this regard (domestic security post-9/11), will be the next President.
Personally, I think Clinton did an awful job recognizing 9/11 was coming. I think Bush did as well. That said, the alteration in domestic security policy was ridiculously apparent under Bush and once again no attack transpired after that alteration. I give him credit for that, and I think any objective/fair-thinking individual would do the same.
Fair enough. I guess only the future will tell. I'm not convinced Bush's reforms have helped us much domestically. I think they're hurt us tremendously actually.
she was underwhelmed, if that's a word
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Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,209
then you would be a horrible president. When you find out we're attacked, you get the fuck up and leave. It's that simple. but that's not why he handled 9/11 poorly. unless you agree that:
- creating one of the worst cases of racial profiling in history
- signing in the PATRIOT ACT
- invading and occupying Afghanistan, while knowingly killing civilians
- invading and occupying Iraq, while knowingly killing civilians
- limiting freedom to anyone who may be Arab or Muslim
...are ok then you really can't say he handled it well. And if you actually think those are ok, then I really don't have any more to say to you. Also, honestly, you probably aren't Arab or Muslim and haven't witnessed how horrible life really got for millions of people after 9/11.
No, Bush handled it horrendously.
yes. feel free to ask an Iraqi, as well, since the majority feel the same way.
Don't forget approving secret extraordinary rendtions of torture in other countries.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Thank you. I am use to getting beat up for having the minority opinion here. I realize this board is incredibly left-leaning and I am OK with that. That said, I also know that my stance on this issue is the majority opinion in America.
As for your question, I do not believe Iraq would be better off today with Saddam/his sons in power. That said, I do not know for sure. Once again, I don't think someone can properly answer that question yet because we don't know what Iraq will become and whether the sacrafices made were worthwhile. At this point, I'd hedge to say yes they are better off and I think that will only become more apparent as time passes. But, IMHO only time will tell for sure. Moreover, the end result being a plus... does not necessarily make the action (pre-emtive strike) a plus because it rationalizes pre-emtive action in the future by other countries. The entire "Iraq" situation is tricky.
I don't see how you can justify the Iraq war as an end which justfied the means. More than 100,000 people are dead after less than 6 years occupation.
I don't see how you can justify the Iraq war as an end which justfied the means. More than 100,000 people are dead after less than 6 years occupation.
If you read what I said, I explained that I don't know if you can justify the war that way. I believe it's largely an unknown. That said, I can have an opinion, just like you can. I think, in the long run, the country "MAY" be better off. Right now, I can't even state a formal opinion, because I don't know what the country will be like in the future.
If you read what I said, I explained that I don't know if you can justify the war that way. I believe it's largely an unknown.
Is it a known unknown or an unknown unknown?
That said, I can have an opinion, just like you can. I think, in the long run, the country "MAY" be better off. Right now, I can't even state a formal opinion, because I don't know what the country will be like in the future.
I don't get why people have to wait to judge the country IN THE FUTURE. why can't you look at it now and just decide whether or not it was better off under Saddam? It's been 5.5 years, I think that's more than enough time to decide.
I don't get why people have to wait to judge the country IN THE FUTURE. why can't you look at it now and just decide whether or not it was better off under Saddam? It's been 5.5 years, I think that's more than enough time to decide.
Because when you overthrow a dictator and attempt to establish a democracy there are issues, and it takes time. You can't get an accurate picture of how things will be yet. Look into WWII for an example. Things were not smooth for quite some time, but Germany and Japan ended up pretty damn good if you ask me.
Because when you overthrow a dictator and attempt to establish a democracy there are issues, and it takes time. You can't get an accurate picture of how things will be yet. Look into WWII for an example. Things were not smooth for quite some time, but Germany and Japan ended up pretty damn good if you ask me.
Even if it turns out to be a great wonderful country, we won't know what caused it.
Comments
very true. only time will tell. I shutter to think, however, what life would be like when Saddam's sons would have taken over. they are young (meaning they would rule Iraq for decades) and by many accounts much worse then their father in terms of brutality.
that said, I still do not think we should have gone to war with Iraq, but can't change that now.
When I say "you get up and leave" etc, obviously that's my opinion and I'm disagreeing with you, so wtf is the point of this bullshit you keep spouting that I don't respect what you have to say or something? racial profiling is cool when it doesn't happen to you.
wtf? which part do you agree with...? occupations should never be allowed... but I guess in the case of our country, international law doesn't matter? so you don't agree with invading and occupying Iraq, yet you try to justify it by saying "atleast theyre better off now"... lol, you think racial profiling is ok, and say Arabs/Muslims don't have their freedoms limited? haha, ok... and I'm sure you haven't seen any of the news stories of Muslims being abused.. I don't understand what you're saying here. Nowhere in my post did it even hint towards this... unless you're saying that muslims deserve to be treated specially and poorly because of that. And I suppose killing 1,000,000+ people is not a crime? Of course, the Iraqi people are NOT living in fear now, that would be ridiculous.
I'm not sayign Saddam was a nice guy, but most Iraqis think that life under him was better than life under the American occupation. It's not that Saddam was good, it's that we're just that fucking bad.
you are young and immature. its very clear to see even more so with your reaction stated above.. I'm not trying to insult you, just making an observation.
it has happened to me. keep in mind, you know nothing about me.
the parts of the bill that allows the government to better proctect americans while not infringing on our liberties. if you want to get in line by line details, make a new thread.
my country was attacked from elements that were allowed free reign in Afganistan. an invasion was completely justified.
whoa. I never said that were better off now. I said time will tell. don't put words in my mouth
I didnt say they arent living in fear now. stop making shit up.
like I said, this remains to be seen. there are many positives as well as negatives since saddam was taken from power. history hasnt been written on this yet.
Not to say I disbelieve you, but I'd love to see your proof that the majority opinion in America would be positive about President Bush, even in regards to his handling of 9/11.
Fair enough. I guess only the future will tell. I'm not convinced Bush's reforms have helped us much domestically. I think they're hurt us tremendously actually.
Don't forget approving secret extraordinary rendtions of torture in other countries.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
I don't see how you can justify the Iraq war as an end which justfied the means. More than 100,000 people are dead after less than 6 years occupation.
Also, almost 5 million people displaced.
If you read what I said, I explained that I don't know if you can justify the war that way. I believe it's largely an unknown. That said, I can have an opinion, just like you can. I think, in the long run, the country "MAY" be better off. Right now, I can't even state a formal opinion, because I don't know what the country will be like in the future.
Very silly.
Because when you overthrow a dictator and attempt to establish a democracy there are issues, and it takes time. You can't get an accurate picture of how things will be yet. Look into WWII for an example. Things were not smooth for quite some time, but Germany and Japan ended up pretty damn good if you ask me.
Even if it turns out to be a great wonderful country, we won't know what caused it.
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Correlation is not causation....
But, dictatorships and horrible, shitty countries seem to go hand-in-hand.
Yeah but we don't know what would have happen if Saddam stayed in power, that's the point.
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It's true. On an uknown road, it's impossible to know what turning left would've done or would do, if we made the decision to turn right.
So to me the direct results of one's action can definitely be used to judge one's actions. But time will reveal and tell us a lot.
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