By RALPH NADER-An Open Letter to W.

2

Comments

  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    hailhailkc wrote:
    So Hezzbollah isn't also a source of this problem? Regardless of what you think about Bush, you can't sit here and NOT admit that a terrorist organization occupying the southern half of Lebanon isn't AT LEAST PART OF the "source" of the problem.

    I think, like Paper Plates said, Nader is nothing more than a politician. Just another person in a long line who makes their views known by continually bashing Bush instead of addressing the issue head on.

    Nader bitching to Bush in an open letter IS working backwards. If he wanted to work at the beginning of the problem, he would work to get Hezzbollah out of Lebanon.

    That isn't the sexy, political solution though, is it?!?! It's much easier to bash Bush with a letter, and keep all of your cronies at home happy. What exactly is this letter going to do, other than reinforce to your base that you hate Bush?

    No, Hezbollah isn't a source of the problem. It is an effect of the problem. You have to eliminate cause to change the effect. If we rid the world of Hezbollah, another group will form to take their place because the problem is still there creating this effect.

    Nader knows this and chooses to work at the problem from it's source because that is the only means of actually changing the outcomes we are currently experiencing. You have to end the sickness it's self not just fight off the symptoms.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • stupidcorporatewhore
    stupidcorporatewhore Posts: 761
    PaperPlates wrote:
    He's a politician.

    End
    of
    story.

    He's not. (he's an activist who uses political landscape to make his points)

    Do
    your
    research.
  • MrBrian
    MrBrian Posts: 2,672
    and for the people who have that much dislike and hate for Mr Nader and what he's done/does/doing and will do in the future.....Please feel free to rip the seat belts from your cars, the seat belts that he helped fight for.

    It's so sad to see his words, his views so easily dismissed by so many americans, but he'd still fight to save your lives.
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    This is definately a post that encourages me to calmly walk outside my apartment and approach my car. As I approach my trunk, I look for my keys and open the trunk. I slowly search for the tire iron, and ask the first passerby to repeatedly smash me over teh skull.

    Sigh.

    What is Ralph Nader's? strategy? NOBODY on the international scene, INCLUDING Lebonan, will not do anything about the Hezbos. People like Nader, Anan, they don't have ANY ideas. Please someone articulate their 'final solution' to Israel!!!
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    No, Hezbollah isn't a source of the problem. It is an effect of the problem.

    Not meant to be sarcastic, antagonistic, or any of that. But is the fact that Israel exists the source of the problem?
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    This is definately a post that encourages me to calmly walk outside my apartment and approach my car. As I approach my trunk, I look for my keys and open the trunk. I slowly search for the tire iron, and ask the first passerby to repeatedly smash me over teh skull.

    Sigh.

    What is Ralph Nader's? strategy? NOBODY on the international scene, INCLUDING Lebonan, will not do anything about the Hezbos. People like Nader, Anan, they don't have ANY ideas. Please someone articulate their 'final solution' to Israel!!!


    I think encouraging diplomacy is a better solution than promoting death and destruction.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I think encouraging diplomacy is a better solution than promoting death and destruction.


    In an ideal world, I think we all would argee with that. But I don't see any Hezzbo diplomats. They aren't a state. There are state actors (Iran, Syria, and apparently Lebonan) that obviously support this group.

    To me diplomacy can only work if both sides want peace. I honeslty do not believe that the Hezbos want peace.
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    In an ideal world, I think we all would argee with that. But I don't see any Hezzbo diplomats. They aren't a state. There are state actors (Iran, Syria, and apparently Lebonan) that obviously support this group.

    To me diplomacy can only work if both sides want peace. I honeslty do not believe that the Hezbos want peace.

    Well, you will never find out if diplomacy can work or not if your refuse to talk and to try to reason with the other side.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • sourdough
    sourdough Posts: 579
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    In an ideal world, I think we all would argee with that. But I don't see any Hezzbo diplomats. They aren't a state. There are state actors (Iran, Syria, and apparently Lebonan) that obviously support this group.

    To me diplomacy can only work if both sides want peace. I honeslty do not believe that the Hezbos want peace.
    Hizbollah does have diplomats. They do have representatives, and are involved directly in the Lebanese government. Today Nasrallah said that he never would have authorized the kidnappings if there was a 1% chance of a war that materialized. I actually believe him on this one because he kinda loses face as a tough militant which would make him go over with the anti-Israeli extremists. Hizbollah and Hamas both have military wings that grab international headlines but also provide public services, schoos, hospitals etc...
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Well, you will never find out if diplomacy can work or not if your refuse to talk and to try to reason with the other side.

    True...but again, are there any Hezbo diplomats? Are there any Al-Quida representatives? Iran engages in diplomacy but are obviously not serious.

    I really do think diplomacy is the ideal way to go, and we should exhaust all possibilities.

    I also think we need to be serious. It's a joke to wave your finger at Iran for it's nuclear program without any enforcement. That's my problem with the UN. How many of their resolutions have been broken (even by Israel) but how many of them have been enforced? What is the point of these resolutions if there are no incentives or enforcement mechanisms?
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    True...but again, are there any Hezbo diplomats? Are there any Al-Quida representatives? Iran engages in diplomacy but are obviously not serious.

    I really do think diplomacy is the ideal way to go, and we should exhaust all possibilities.

    I also think we need to be serious. It's a joke to wave your finger at Iran for it's nuclear program without any enforcement. That's my problem with the UN. How many of their resolutions have been broken (even by Israel) but how many of them have been enforced? What is the point of these resolutions if there are no incentives or enforcement mechanisms?

    Has Iran attacked anyone? Until they actually do this, we can not just go around beating the war drums. We have to continue talks to encourage keeping the peace. As long as a group is made of humans, then progress can be made through communication.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Has Iran attacked anyone? Until they actually do this, we can not just go around beating the war drums. We have to continue talks to encourage keeping the peace. As long as a group is made of humans, then progress can be made through communication.

    It depends on what you mean by attacked? What should we do about Iran's nuclear program? Should we do anything? Are we justified in doing anything? Should Iran be held accountable for supplying the Hezbos? These are all serious threats to international security, in my mind. I have no faith in the UN. Again, look at the Israelis violations, and what have they done? Given the views of Iran's leader, I really don't think diplomacy will work - I think we have tried. They don't recognize Israel's right to exist, and to me, that is an unacceptable position that is non-negotiable.
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    It depends on what you mean by attacked? What should we do about Iran's nuclear program? Should we do anything? Are we justified in doing anything? Should Iran be held accountable for supplying the Hezbos? These are all serious threats to international security, in my mind. I have no faith in the UN. Again, look at the Israelis violations, and what have they done? Given the views of Iran's leader, I really don't think diplomacy will work - I think we have tried. They don't recognize Israel's right to exist, and to me, that is an unacceptable position that is non-negotiable.

    Well, we can't do too much considering we have a nuclear program, as well. I think they should all be outlawed for everyone.

    It doesn't matter what they think about Israel as long as they don't attack them. The US supplies Israel, Iran supplies Hezbollah....this shit never ends and only lines the pockets of the rich. There has to be another way and that way can be found through open talks instead of bombing season.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Well, we can't do too much considering we have a nuclear program, as well. I think they should all be outlawed for everyone.

    It doesn't matter what they think about Israel as long as they don't attack them. The US supplies Israel, Iran supplies Hezbollah....this shit never ends and only lines the pockets of the rich. There has to be another way and that way can be found through open talks instead of bombing season.

    To quote your boy :) O'Reilly, "I'm a simple man." I like to boil these things down to the most basic questions. From what I can gather, Iran and the Hezbos do not want Israel to exist. I believe that Israel does have a right to exist. It's diffucult to engage in diplomacy with such diometric viewpoints.
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    To quote your boy :) O'Reilly, "I'm a simple man." I like to boil these things down to the most basic questions. From what I can gather, Iran and the Hezbos do not want Israel to exist. I believe that Israel does have a right to exist. It's diffucult to engage in diplomacy with such diometric viewpoints.

    How about lets simplify even further.

    Israel exists. Israel does wrong. Iran and Hezbollah exist. Iran and Hezbollah do wrong. They are equally wrong. They are both still here. So how can one be more wrong than the other? People can think whatever they want, it doesn't mean you get to drop bombs on them, especially when they have not attacked Israel. You don't justify the possible killings of thousands of people for a war based on trash talk and rantings. You can think I should die but that doesn't mean I should have the right to shoot you until you actually try to kill me.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    How about lets simplify even further.

    Israel exists. Israel does wrong. Iran and Hezbollah exist. Iran and Hezbollah do wrong. They are equally wrong. They are both still here. So how can one be more wrong than the other? People can think whatever they want, it doesn't mean you get to drop bombs on them, especially when they have not attacked Israel. You don't justify the possible killings of thousands of people for a war based on trash talk and rantings. You can think I should die but that doesn't mean I should have the right to shoot you until you actually try to kill me.

    This is a good post.
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    How about lets simplify even further.

    Israel exists. Israel does wrong. Iran and Hezbollah exist. Iran and Hezbollah do wrong. They are equally wrong.

    Right, but the Israeli President does not publicly say that they do not recognize Iran's right to exist. Iran (at least Ahmadinejad) and the Hezbo's view of Israel is quite different. I'm not sure how you negotiate with someone who doesn't recognize your right to exist.
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • NMyTree
    NMyTree Posts: 2,374
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Has Iran attacked anyone? Until they actually do this, we can not just go around beating the war drums. We have to continue talks to encourage keeping the peace. As long as a group is made of humans, then progress can be made through communication.


    Haha! You're kidding, right?

    Iran is and has been up to their necks in all of this, for a very long time.

    If you think Iran is not involved in the Palenstine and Lebanon conflicts, then, you're not paying much attention; or you're looking through some rather foggy glasses.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    Right, but the Israeli President does not publicly say that they do not recognize Iran's right to exist. Iran (at least Ahmadinejad) and the Hezbo's view of Israel is quite different.

    So?
    I'm not sure how you negotiate with someone who doesn't recognize your right to exist.

    You don't. But the existential proposition is not "negotiate or kill".
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Has Iran attacked anyone? Until they actually do this, we can not just go around beating the war drums. We have to continue talks to encourage keeping the peace. As long as a group is made of humans, then progress can be made through communication.

    What in god's name do we have to talk about?

Categories