Learning From Mistakes

MrBrian

So America sold weapons to Israel, Israel sold weapons to Apartheid South Africa. Israel helped South Africa keep apartheid alive. they needed South Africa for a few reasons, one, material, two, African states were supporting the Arabs, but by turning South Africa into a sorta iron fist of Africa (and being on Israels side) they felt that apartheid would spread around Africa? nah, maybe just have the leaders controlled by them (Israel) and any Arab support would turn to Zionist support.

Now One of the major reasons why apartheid South Africa failed is due mainly because of lack of funds, It's expensive (apartheid), just ask Israel. Without Americas funding, Israel would not be able to continue it's own oppression towards the Palestinians.


Israels mentality these days is very similar to it's mentality in the 70's, only this time, only now they've perfected the art of propaganda and proxy wars.

They've seen the mistakes made by it's one time bed buddy apartheid South Africa and not tried to repeat them, Israel has perfected the art of apartheid, so much so that they've even got some of the anti South African apartheid people supporting them.

South Africas Nazi sympathiser ex president John Vorster would be proud of Israel. But I just can't help but think that Israels dirty history and current issues would have every holocaust victim turning in their graves due to it.

ThumbingMyWay32

MrBrian wrote:

So America sold weapons to Israel, Israel sold weapons to Apartheid South Africa. Israel helped South Africa keep apartheid alive. they needed South Africa for a few reasons, one, material, two, African states were supporting the Arabs, but by turning South Africa into a sorta iron fist of Africa (and being on Israels side) they felt that apartheid would spread around Africa? nah, maybe just have the leaders controlled by them (Israel) and any Arab support would turn to Zionist support.

Now One of the major reasons why apartheid South Africa failed is due mainly because of lack of funds, It's expensive (apartheid), just ask Israel. Without Americas funding, Israel would not be able to continue it's own oppression towards the Palestinians.


Israels mentality these days is very similar to it's mentality in the 70's, only this time, only now they've perfected the art of propaganda and proxy wars.

They've seen the mistakes made by it's one time bed buddy apartheid South Africa and not tried to repeat them, Israel has perfected the art of apartheid, so much so that they've even got some of the anti South African apartheid people supporting them.

South Africas Nazi sympathiser ex president John Vorster would be proud of Israel. But I just can't help but think that Israels dirty history and current issues would have every holocaust victim turning in their graves due to it.

Blame America first... We'll figure out the rest later. If anyone cares?

Last Exodus

MrBrian wrote:

So America sold weapons to Israel, Israel sold weapons to Apartheid South Africa. Israel helped South Africa keep apartheid alive. they needed South Africa for a few reasons, one, material, two, African states were supporting the Arabs, but by turning South Africa into a sorta iron fist of Africa (and being on Israels side) they felt that apartheid would spread around Africa? nah, maybe just have the leaders controlled by them (Israel) and any Arab support would turn to Zionist support.

Now One of the major reasons why apartheid South Africa failed is due mainly because of lack of funds, It's expensive (apartheid), just ask Israel. Without Americas funding, Israel would not be able to continue it's own oppression towards the Palestinians.


Israels mentality these days is very similar to it's mentality in the 70's, only this time, only now they've perfected the art of propaganda and proxy wars.

They've seen the mistakes made by it's one time bed buddy apartheid South Africa and not tried to repeat them, Israel has perfected the art of apartheid, so much so that they've even got some of the anti South African apartheid people supporting them.

South Africas Nazi sympathiser ex president John Vorster would be proud of Israel. But I just can't help but think that Israels dirty history and current issues would have every holocaust victim turning in their graves due to it.

Man, you are a sick puppy. Unless you know any holocaust survivors, as I do, don't speak for them. It's extremely offensive.

MrBrian

Last Exodus wrote:

Man, you are a sick puppy. Unless you know any holocaust survivors, as I do, don't speak for them. It's extremely offensive.

then ask them what they think about oppression, I'm pretty sure they'll be against it.

Now anything else you would like to add?

Last Exodus

MrBrian wrote:

then ask them what they think about oppression, I'm pretty sure they'll be against it.

Now anything else you would like to add?

youre a lost cause.

trappedinmyradio

Last Exodus wrote:

Man, you are a sick puppy. Unless you know any holocaust survivors, as I do, don't speak for them. It's extremely offensive.

it's an opinion...come off of your high-horse.

MrBrian

Last Exodus wrote:

youre a lost cause.

yes yes. You know for a person who goes on so much in other threads about debate and reasoning and whatever else, you seem to practice it so little yourself. quite sad really.

You talk about how everyone else acts whichever way, yet such a large portion of your posts are insult based, infact you seem to not even be very good at that. Now please, I don't want you to leave, stay.

Talk to me,

DinghyDog

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DinghyDog

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trappedinmyradio

DinghyDog wrote:

Although i think Israel has quite a bad history, I disagree with your statement in that holocaust victims would probably like the idea of a country reserved for them and their offspring.

whether that is right or wrong of them to want, is another discussion.

i just realised that, anywhere outside of israel in the western world is probably a much better place to be for jewish people!

where did this assumption come from?

MrBrian

Notice when I made that remark about all of africa being in apartheid (as a goal of israel) I also then added "iron fist" and gave a reason for it. it was about having other leaders support israel and not the arabs.

I also said that the a lack of funds was one of the reasons it fell, think about it, wheres all that gold money now?

I would also have to argue about the "no civil war", well not in the terms as we know it to be. But the crime rate after apartheid fell...rocketed, johannesburg turned into one of the most dangerous places on earth, rape, murder and whatever other crimes. Almost every other south african carried a gun and just about every single family had a friend or family member killed by the intense violence.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0497/9704026.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1704037,00.html

some good articles on said topic (infact the second one is where I lifted the nazi line from regarder vorster as I was typing my post that line about him stuck out in my head so I thought I'd add it to my post) enjoy, they are good articles, notice the date on the first one was '97

I'm not too positive about south africas future, I was sad to hear about americans buying up top property in cape town because of the strong dollar and weak rand, well obvioulsy quite a few other things but we'll see how the rest of this thread goes. Indeed I can talk about this for days.

I also lived in south africa, great country. not happy with it's current direction, lot's and lot's of corruption. as you I'm sure know.

Huge racism still exists, but people like to be blinded by the "rainbow nation" slogan.

nice talking,

DinghyDog

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ThumbingMyWay32

trappedinmyradio wrote:

where did this assumption come from?

He probably assumes that because, atleast here in a America, folks aren't running around with bombs strapped to their chests looking for Jews to blow up.

MrBrian

Something about American companies in south africa, one of the bigger names I would say is mc donalds. very well know yeah? when it first opened in south africa, I remember they had a helicpoter deliver the first burger and the line to get into mc donalds was about 6 hrs.

It's that american name, that american feeling that even people so far away wanted, it was pretty funny.

DinghyDog

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DinghyDog

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DinghyDog

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MrBrian

DinghyDog wrote:

now we're saddled up with fucked up town planning and transport problems, a very weird economy, and social fabric that is so ingrained that i wonder if the poorest of the poor will ever be uplifted.

you know, we sponsor a girl in zambia through world vision. my wife (an asutralian) asked why dont we sponsor one in south africa. the main reason for me was that there is so much wealth that very few south africans need to be poverty stricken. you have this very wealthy upper class (even by 1st world standards) who just do not share that wealth with their fellow south africans. rich south africans should be sponsoring their fellow south africans for an education, etc.

Yeah, the rich are very rich. Infact when I first moved to SA I was shocked to see that a large number of the cars on the roads were luxury/sports. Like you see honda civics in america you see BMWs and Mercs in South Africa.

The government is trying really really hard to clean things up for the World Cup. now the problem with is, it's only surface cleaning! They are just pushing the crime more underground and/or to other areas of the country.

Like Rustenburg for example, a very small town, but the jo'burg crime is slowly getting pushed towards them.

DinghyDog

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DinghyDog

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MrBrian

DinghyDog wrote:

i think anyone interested in South Africa's history should first and foremost read Nelson Mandela's "long road to freedom".

But they'll probably rather watch the new mandela movie being made starring morgan freidman sp?

But yeah, great book.

DinghyDog

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Last Exodus

DinghyDog wrote:

i am a south african living overseas now. i can tell you honestly for each and every sentence you wrote we can argue for days about it. i am not clear with some of the things you're trying to say, but...

suffice to say that israel didnt need south africa or vice versa to survive. they both existed in parallel and had a symbiosis so to speak.

take the angolan war for example. ideologically it was a war between america and communist russia. fought for the russian camp by cubans, angolese on the one hand and for american interests by south africans and namibians on the other.

its true that south africa and israel collaborated a lot with developing weapons, one of which was the kfir and cheetah warplanes which are very similar, both based on french mirage technology. i have personally spoken to people who developed missiles in collaboration with israeli's, in israel. all of this brokered in some sense for american interests.

and i can guarantee you that america was a very good friend of the apartheid government, esp in the first 75% of the time. mainly due to gold, diamonds, and other riches, and the fact that although apartheid was legislated, south africa was a bastion of capitalism on the african continent and therefore in line with american business practices.

i highly doubt that south africa ever wanted the whole of africa to be under apartheid. seriously. if there ever was a whole-of-continent plan for africa it was the british idea under cecil rhodes that wanted the whole place colonialised.

apartheid was an evil and horrible system. although at the same time, a lot of the characteristics of it was going on in a number of countries, including america and australia. in no way do i support apartheid, it makes me sick in the guts to see my homeland still horribly affected by it 13 years after getting rid of it. it gets me agitated when south africans get generalised about their past, when equal or greater wrongdoings were suffered by native americans or aboriginal australians. can anyone here say "reserve" or "mission" or "stolen generation". south africa's problem was that it was institutionalised.

the reason why apartheid was abolished in the 80s is not due to a lack of funds, but due to sanctions. even so i would say that the sanctions only played a part in the demise of it; south africans of all races knew it wasnt right and it was time to change. It was the government enforcing it wihtout majority approval of its citizens and that was why the sanctions were needed to broke its back. i take the fact that there was no civil war at the change over as proof that people actually wanted a change for the better.

i don't think that what israel is doing is apartheid. it reeks more of concentration camps than anything. personally i don't think the middle east problem will be solved for a thousand years hence. it's been going for at least 3000 years. i don't want to be defeatist but i'm tending to think "its just one of those things" like death and taxes. until israelis and palestinians and everyone in the world just gets over themselves, the problem will be there.

and regarding your comment about vorster being a nazi sympathiser, yes it is true that he probably did sympathise; but, it was more likely as a result of hate for the british due to the suffering they brought upon the boer people than actually being a fair dinkum nazi. a lot of boers at the time of WW II still vehemently hated the british due to what they did to them in the boer war of 1899-1902. and guess whose side the americans were on in that one? the boers'. (although they didn't fight).

i love south africa, it is my home country, and feel good about its future, although i had to make my home somewhere else.

For the insight on your country. Sadly the thread was not meant to bring any kind of focus on your country, but to backhandedly insult another. While the intent of the thread was malicious at least I learned something from you.

Cheers

MrBrian

really? because my intention was to be pretty direct with my attack on Israel.
nevertheless, as always you don't have anything to add so you just pop in to cause some sorta problem. But that's fine.

Last Exodus

DinghyDog wrote:

tha's what i was getting at. jews in germany (of all places) today don't live in fear of being blown up by a suicide bomber when they go to a cafe, unlike in israel.

it was just a thought that crossed my mind, don't want to offend anyone. i might be totally wrong.

um there are no more jews in germany dude.

Last Exodus

MrBrian wrote:

really? because my intention was to be pretty direct with my attack on Israel.
nevertheless, as always you don't have anything to add so you just pop in to cause some sorta problem. But that's fine.

well if you hate them so much why dont you do a martydom video and post it online.

sponger

MrBrian wrote:

really? because my intention was to be pretty direct with my attack on Israel.
nevertheless, as always you don't have anything to add so you just pop in to cause some sorta problem. But that's fine.

I'm getting the same impression about that dude.

Last Exodus

Last Exodus wrote:

well if you hate them so much why dont you do a martydom video and post it online.

And im sorry to disrupt your constant diatribe of hate...ill try not to interfere with it anymore...

MrBrian

Last Exodus wrote:

well if you hate them so much why dont you do a martydom video and post it online.

I think you already made a similar comment to another user, please, insult me with something original.
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But again, find problems with my post, tell me that the relationship with the two are false, the oppression of palestinians is not real or that Israel was never caught spying on the US (something that I'll bring up in another thread)

It's about seeing something that's wrong and not supporting it. yes, israel is wrong in a huge amount of it's actions, it has a dirty and digusting history. don't debate your ill feeling towards me, i'm not interested in a personal battle with you.

Last Exodus

MrBrian wrote:

I think you already made a similar comment to another user, please, insult me with something original.
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But again, find problems with my post, tell me that the relationship with the two are false, the oppression of palestinians is not real or that Israel was never caught spying on the US (something that I'll bring up in another thread)

It's about seeing something that's wrong and not supporting it. yes, israel is wrong in a huge amount of it's actions, it has a dirty and digusting history. don't debate your ill feeling towards me, i'm not interested in a personal battle with you.

ill work on it

Last Exodus

go for it B! youd get alot of virgin ass

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5d5ba0d5a0