hey, i didn't read through the whole thread, so maybe this has been addressed. a lot of you seem to not want to condemn this practice because you feel that you will condemn (sorry spelling?) the whole culture, and i think it's great that you're open to that. but murder is murder everywhere, and it's wrong. i've spent about 6 months in nepal and india, so i feel that i have about as much incite into their culture as whitey can have, so here goes..
india has a long history atrocities where reproductive issues are concerned. in the 60's (i beleive, or maybe the 70s), the prime minister, declared a 'state of emergency', which meant that she could do whatever the fuck she wanted, many ppl were imprisoned without a trial (it's a state of emergency, we don't have time for that) most of these were political prisoners, including the half of the parliment that belonged to the opposition party, many ppl were forcibly sterilized, others were tricked into sterilization, this was directed at the poor and the street ppl. now the poor are killing their babies. these issues have been widely criticized within india itself (go pick up anything by rohinton mistry or rushdie). india is culturally incredibly diverse (there are something like 50 official languages, and hindi is actually only spoken in a few of thenorthern provinces), so there's no 'indian culture', but the regional cultures are being severly influenced by north am culture (as is the rest of the world), and it's actually doing good things for women, especially the (very tiny) middle class, who are empowering themselves.
now, i'm not saying that i don't have a problem with imposing my views on someone else, but there's a line, and that line is murder. the other line is opression; women everywhere are getting the shaft (here in the west too), women's literacy rates always lag behind men's (google the cia factbook, it talks about all kinds of things, oil consumption, environmental protection, military budgets, v interesting), and women are generally treated as second class citizens everywhere.
i sat down to lunch with a family in a small fishing village in south india one day, we sat down and dug in, then i realized that the women were all siting back, they had to wait until the men were finished before they were allowed to eat (as a guest, i was given a place of priviledge, and ate with the men). and men are not necessarily the primary breadwinners, most homes cannot function on one small salary, but the women then come home, and like here, do all the housework. men go out drinking with their buddies, but a woman is not permited to let loose, there's a very narrow list of activities that a traditional indian woman is allowed to do. one of the primary reasons that women are seen as a burden (and hence killed at birth), are because the family has to pay a huge dowry to get rid of the girls, the hubby's fam is accepting this burden into their family, and they want to get paid well to do it. most ppl can't afford to pay it.
only recently has the act of women throwing themselves on their husband's funeral pyre been outlawed. this was to show their sadnes, but they were generally pushed on to the pyre by their inlaws who didn't want to keep supporting them (go watch deepa mehta's 'water' and see how indian widows are treated). i have seen women that have been disfigured by this practice, and can't find work, or another husband, and have to beg
my point is that it's not cultural imperialism to oppose certain activities taht are wrong. in hinduism (and pls, anyone correct me if i'm wrong) you get born as a certain animal or cast depending on your actions in your previous life. worse than being born as an untouchable man is to be born as a woman (regardless of cast), it is seen that these souls have been punished for an act that didn't quite merit rebirth as an animal, but that they were so undeserving so they're reborn as a woman. it has resulted in a lot of conversion to christianity (thanks to a ton of missionaries)
my point is that i think it's ok to condemn these practices, and i don't think that it means that i'm condemning the culture, i still have great respect for the culture, just not this crap (sorry for the long-windedness)
No problem can be solved from the same consciousness that created it.
Albert Einstein
hey, i didn't read through the whole thread, so maybe this has been addressed. a lot of you seem to not want to condemn this practice because you feel that you will condemn (sorry spelling?) the whole culture, and i think it's great that you're open to that. but murder is murder everywhere, and it's wrong. i've spent about 6 months in nepal and india, so i feel that i have about as much incite into their culture as whitey can have, so here goes..
india has a long history atrocities where reproductive issues are concerned. in the 60's (i beleive, or maybe the 70s), the prime minister, declared a 'state of emergency', which meant that she could do whatever the fuck she wanted, many ppl were imprisoned without a trial (it's a state of emergency, we don't have time for that) most of these were political prisoners, including the half of the parliment that belonged to the opposition party, many ppl were forcibly sterilized, others were tricked into sterilization, this was directed at the poor and the street ppl. now the poor are killing their babies. these issues have been widely criticized within india itself (go pick up anything by rohinton mistry or rushdie). india is culturally incredibly diverse (there are something like 50 official languages, and hindi is actually only spoken in a few of thenorthern provinces), so there's no 'indian culture', but the regional cultures are being severly influenced by north am culture (as is the rest of the world), and it's actually doing good things for women, especially the (very tiny) middle class, who are empowering themselves.
now, i'm not saying that i don't have a problem with imposing my views on someone else, but there's a line, and that line is murder. the other line is opression; women everywhere are getting the shaft (here in the west too), women's literacy rates always lag behind men's (google the cia factbook, it talks about all kinds of things, oil consumption, environmental protection, military budgets, v interesting), and women are generally treated as second class citizens everywhere.
i sat down to lunch with a family in a small fishing village in south india one day, we sat down and dug in, then i realized that the women were all siting back, they had to wait until the men were finished before they were allowed to eat (as a guest, i was given a place of priviledge, and ate with the men). and men are not necessarily the primary breadwinners, most homes cannot function on one small salary, but the women then come home, and like here, do all the housework. men go out drinking with their buddies, but a woman is not permited to let loose, there's a very narrow list of activities that a traditional indian woman is allowed to do. one of the primary reasons that women are seen as a burden (and hence killed at birth), are because the family has to pay a huge dowry to get rid of the girls, the hubby's fam is accepting this burden into their family, and they want to get paid well to do it. most ppl can't afford to pay it.
only recently has the act of women throwing themselves on their husband's funeral pyre been outlawed. this was to show their sadnes, but they were generally pushed on to the pyre by their inlaws who didn't want to keep supporting them (go watch deepa mehta's 'water' and see how indian widows are treated). i have seen women that have been disfigured by this practice, and can't find work, or another husband, and have to beg
my point is that it's not cultural imperialism to oppose certain activities taht are wrong. in hinduism (and pls, anyone correct me if i'm wrong) you get born as a certain animal or cast depending on your actions in your previous life. worse than being born as an untouchable man is to be born as a woman (regardless of cast), it is seen that these souls have been punished for an act that didn't quite merit rebirth as an animal, but that they were so undeserving so they're reborn as a woman. it has resulted in a lot of conversion to christianity (thanks to a ton of missionaries)
my point is that i think it's ok to condemn these practices, and i don't think that it means that i'm condemning the culture, i still have great respect for the culture, just not this crap (sorry for the long-windedness)
You condemn. I can completely understand that. I am for life in all ways. I understand murder is not acceptable. Do you believe in or condone somehow forcing them to choose otherwise against their beliefs?
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I wonder why we don't impose our beliefs on the tribes of Papa New Guinea, where the men do all the housework and the women go out and party.
Women are statistically more capable of learning in time-sensitive circumstances. Therefor I think men are getting shafted by nature.
Still, I agree, culturally we should try to maintain a balance. However, as Ghandi, we should meet these issues with a level of passive resistence and information proliferation, as opposed to sanctions or military force.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
You condemn. I can completely understand that. I am for life in all ways. I understand murder is not acceptable. Do you believe in or condone somehow forcing them to choose otherwise against their beliefs?
as far as i can tell it's not their beliefs, it's fucked up combination of a male-supremist culture and poverty. the parents (or sometimes even the midwife, or others present at the birth) kill the girls because they know they won't be able to support them, and pay a dowry, a boy will bring in a dowry though, and it's good luck/status to have a boy. and they know htat this girl is going to be stuck in a miserable life, so they kill her off (note, they also kill of the disfigured and retarded).
these are also not necessarily their beliefs, it's just something that's being done (man, i wish i could come up with an analogy in our culture, maybe that it's generally acceptable to dress in a certain way for work, now i'm against materialism based on the fact that most fabric is made from unsustainably-grown cotton, and then made into clothing in sweat shops, usually by women and children; but if i showed up to an interview in an old pair of jeans and oh, lets say a pj t-shirt, do you think i'd get the job? probalby not, so i conform; it's not my culture, but it's been forced on me) my (very badly made) point is that sometimes something becomes part of a culture due to the dominant voice, and that p.o.v doesn't help most ppl in the culture, but they are forced to follow it because they have to work within the confines of what has been offered, and can't find a way out. so those of us that are lucky enough to have a voice should use it.
No problem can be solved from the same consciousness that created it.
Albert Einstein
as far as i can tell it's not their beliefs, it's fucked up combination of a male-supremist culture and poverty. the parents (or sometimes even the midwife, or others present at the birth) kill the girls because they know they won't be able to support them, and pay a dowry, a boy will bring in a dowry though, and it's good luck/status to have a boy. and they know htat this girl is going to be stuck in a miserable life, so they kill her off (note, they also kill of the disfigured and retarded).
these are also not necessarily their beliefs, it's just something that's being done (man, i wish i could come up with an analogy in our culture, maybe that it's generally acceptable to dress in a certain way for work, now i'm against materialism based on the fact that most fabric is made from unsustainably-grown cotton, and then made into clothing in sweat shops, usually by women and children; but if i showed up to an interview in an old pair of jeans and oh, lets say a pj t-shirt, do you think i'd get the job? probalby not, so i conform; it's not my culture, but it's been forced on me) my (very badly made) point is that sometimes something becomes part of a culture due to the dominant voice, and that p.o.v doesn't help most ppl in the culture, but they are forced to follow it because they have to work within the confines of what has been offered, and can't find a way out. so those of us that are lucky enough to have a voice should use it.
Whatever it is, do you feel some country or force can effectively go in there and instigate what would need to be some form of cultural evolution? Can you imagine a way that would work?
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I just don't know enough about Indian culture to know if this killing of girls after birth is sociably acceptable or not. I'm fully prepared to condemn the individual though.
It's not acceptable but it often happens in rural or village areas which are often very traditional and resistant to changes
I'm surprised to hear that it is happening amongst the educated - they are usually the ones with the power to change these things. It's such a despicable practice, and I'm saying that as an Indian.
IMO, its fine to condemn the practice, as long as it doesn't turn into a lot of racism about indians in general. This practice is cruel and wrong and Indians know it too. The key issue is knowing how to change it.
Good on this politician for bringing this issue out into the open.
"We have to change the concept of patriotism to one of “matriotism” — love of humanity that transcends war. A matriarch would never send her own children off to wars that kill other people’s children." Cindy Sheehan --- London, Brixton, 14 July 1993 London, Wembley, 1996 London, Wembley, 18 June 2007 London, O2, 18 August 2009 London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 31 July 2012 Milton Keynes Bowl, 11 July 2014
London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 06 June 2017
as far as i can tell it's not their beliefs, it's fucked up combination of a male-supremist culture and poverty. the parents (or sometimes even the midwife, or others present at the birth) kill the girls because they know they won't be able to support them, and pay a dowry, a boy will bring in a dowry though, and it's good luck/status to have a boy. and they know htat this girl is going to be stuck in a miserable life, so they kill her off (note, they also kill of the disfigured and retarded).
these are also not necessarily their beliefs, it's just something that's being done (man, i wish i could come up with an analogy in our culture, maybe that it's generally acceptable to dress in a certain way for work, now i'm against materialism based on the fact that most fabric is made from unsustainably-grown cotton, and then made into clothing in sweat shops, usually by women and children; but if i showed up to an interview in an old pair of jeans and oh, lets say a pj t-shirt, do you think i'd get the job? probalby not, so i conform; it's not my culture, but it's been forced on me) my (very badly made) point is that sometimes something becomes part of a culture due to the dominant voice, and that p.o.v doesn't help most ppl in the culture, but they are forced to follow it because they have to work within the confines of what has been offered, and can't find a way out. so those of us that are lucky enough to have a voice should use it.
Point well made
"We have to change the concept of patriotism to one of “matriotism” — love of humanity that transcends war. A matriarch would never send her own children off to wars that kill other people’s children." Cindy Sheehan --- London, Brixton, 14 July 1993 London, Wembley, 1996 London, Wembley, 18 June 2007 London, O2, 18 August 2009 London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 31 July 2012 Milton Keynes Bowl, 11 July 2014
London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 06 June 2017
Whatever it is, do you feel some country or force can effectively go in there and instigate what would need to be some form of cultural evolution? Can you imagine a way that would work?
i'm totally against the imposition of one culture on another. but in this case, many within india are against it, but feel that they have no other options. i don't think that we should go in waving our flags and say "you're wrong, do this", i do think that we can provide the financial support (as well as the knowledge of how to set up such an organization) to women's groups within india, so that they can work within their own society to stop this from happening
No problem can be solved from the same consciousness that created it.
Albert Einstein
i'm totally against the imposition of one culture on another. but in this case, many within india are against it, but feel that they have no other options. i don't think that we should go in waving our flags and say "you're wrong, do this", i do think that we can provide the financial support (as well as the knowledge of how to set up such an organization) to women's groups within india, so that they can work within their own society to stop this from happening
I like your point of view.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
i'm totally against the imposition of one culture on another. but in this case, many within india are against it, but feel that they have no other options. i don't think that we should go in waving our flags and say "you're wrong, do this", i do think that we can provide the financial support (as well as the knowledge of how to set up such an organization) to women's groups within india, so that they can work within their own society to stop this from happening
I think it takes both international pressure and the will of the Indian government to make things change, especially the Indian government, who can work with local communities to try and change things, educate people and maybe put in incentives to families to make them see their daughters have value.
Ultimately, unless the dowry system changes as well, this will carry on unfortunately.
"We have to change the concept of patriotism to one of “matriotism” — love of humanity that transcends war. A matriarch would never send her own children off to wars that kill other people’s children." Cindy Sheehan --- London, Brixton, 14 July 1993 London, Wembley, 1996 London, Wembley, 18 June 2007 London, O2, 18 August 2009 London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 31 July 2012 Milton Keynes Bowl, 11 July 2014
London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 06 June 2017
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
india has a long history atrocities where reproductive issues are concerned. in the 60's (i beleive, or maybe the 70s), the prime minister, declared a 'state of emergency', which meant that she could do whatever the fuck she wanted, many ppl were imprisoned without a trial (it's a state of emergency, we don't have time for that) most of these were political prisoners, including the half of the parliment that belonged to the opposition party, many ppl were forcibly sterilized, others were tricked into sterilization, this was directed at the poor and the street ppl. now the poor are killing their babies. these issues have been widely criticized within india itself (go pick up anything by rohinton mistry or rushdie). india is culturally incredibly diverse (there are something like 50 official languages, and hindi is actually only spoken in a few of thenorthern provinces), so there's no 'indian culture', but the regional cultures are being severly influenced by north am culture (as is the rest of the world), and it's actually doing good things for women, especially the (very tiny) middle class, who are empowering themselves.
now, i'm not saying that i don't have a problem with imposing my views on someone else, but there's a line, and that line is murder. the other line is opression; women everywhere are getting the shaft (here in the west too), women's literacy rates always lag behind men's (google the cia factbook, it talks about all kinds of things, oil consumption, environmental protection, military budgets, v interesting), and women are generally treated as second class citizens everywhere.
i sat down to lunch with a family in a small fishing village in south india one day, we sat down and dug in, then i realized that the women were all siting back, they had to wait until the men were finished before they were allowed to eat (as a guest, i was given a place of priviledge, and ate with the men). and men are not necessarily the primary breadwinners, most homes cannot function on one small salary, but the women then come home, and like here, do all the housework. men go out drinking with their buddies, but a woman is not permited to let loose, there's a very narrow list of activities that a traditional indian woman is allowed to do. one of the primary reasons that women are seen as a burden (and hence killed at birth), are because the family has to pay a huge dowry to get rid of the girls, the hubby's fam is accepting this burden into their family, and they want to get paid well to do it. most ppl can't afford to pay it.
only recently has the act of women throwing themselves on their husband's funeral pyre been outlawed. this was to show their sadnes, but they were generally pushed on to the pyre by their inlaws who didn't want to keep supporting them (go watch deepa mehta's 'water' and see how indian widows are treated). i have seen women that have been disfigured by this practice, and can't find work, or another husband, and have to beg
my point is that it's not cultural imperialism to oppose certain activities taht are wrong. in hinduism (and pls, anyone correct me if i'm wrong) you get born as a certain animal or cast depending on your actions in your previous life. worse than being born as an untouchable man is to be born as a woman (regardless of cast), it is seen that these souls have been punished for an act that didn't quite merit rebirth as an animal, but that they were so undeserving so they're reborn as a woman. it has resulted in a lot of conversion to christianity (thanks to a ton of missionaries)
my point is that i think it's ok to condemn these practices, and i don't think that it means that i'm condemning the culture, i still have great respect for the culture, just not this crap (sorry for the long-windedness)
Albert Einstein
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Women are statistically more capable of learning in time-sensitive circumstances. Therefor I think men are getting shafted by nature.
Still, I agree, culturally we should try to maintain a balance. However, as Ghandi, we should meet these issues with a level of passive resistence and information proliferation, as opposed to sanctions or military force.
as far as i can tell it's not their beliefs, it's fucked up combination of a male-supremist culture and poverty. the parents (or sometimes even the midwife, or others present at the birth) kill the girls because they know they won't be able to support them, and pay a dowry, a boy will bring in a dowry though, and it's good luck/status to have a boy. and they know htat this girl is going to be stuck in a miserable life, so they kill her off (note, they also kill of the disfigured and retarded).
these are also not necessarily their beliefs, it's just something that's being done (man, i wish i could come up with an analogy in our culture, maybe that it's generally acceptable to dress in a certain way for work, now i'm against materialism based on the fact that most fabric is made from unsustainably-grown cotton, and then made into clothing in sweat shops, usually by women and children; but if i showed up to an interview in an old pair of jeans and oh, lets say a pj t-shirt, do you think i'd get the job? probalby not, so i conform; it's not my culture, but it's been forced on me) my (very badly made) point is that sometimes something becomes part of a culture due to the dominant voice, and that p.o.v doesn't help most ppl in the culture, but they are forced to follow it because they have to work within the confines of what has been offered, and can't find a way out. so those of us that are lucky enough to have a voice should use it.
Albert Einstein
Albert Einstein
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
It's not acceptable but it often happens in rural or village areas which are often very traditional and resistant to changes
I'm surprised to hear that it is happening amongst the educated - they are usually the ones with the power to change these things. It's such a despicable practice, and I'm saying that as an Indian.
IMO, its fine to condemn the practice, as long as it doesn't turn into a lot of racism about indians in general. This practice is cruel and wrong and Indians know it too. The key issue is knowing how to change it.
Good on this politician for bringing this issue out into the open.
---
London, Brixton, 14 July 1993
London, Wembley, 1996
London, Wembley, 18 June 2007
London, O2, 18 August 2009
London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 31 July 2012
Milton Keynes Bowl, 11 July 2014
Point well made
---
London, Brixton, 14 July 1993
London, Wembley, 1996
London, Wembley, 18 June 2007
London, O2, 18 August 2009
London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 31 July 2012
Milton Keynes Bowl, 11 July 2014
i'm totally against the imposition of one culture on another. but in this case, many within india are against it, but feel that they have no other options. i don't think that we should go in waving our flags and say "you're wrong, do this", i do think that we can provide the financial support (as well as the knowledge of how to set up such an organization) to women's groups within india, so that they can work within their own society to stop this from happening
Albert Einstein
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I think it takes both international pressure and the will of the Indian government to make things change, especially the Indian government, who can work with local communities to try and change things, educate people and maybe put in incentives to families to make them see their daughters have value.
Ultimately, unless the dowry system changes as well, this will carry on unfortunately.
---
London, Brixton, 14 July 1993
London, Wembley, 1996
London, Wembley, 18 June 2007
London, O2, 18 August 2009
London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 31 July 2012
Milton Keynes Bowl, 11 July 2014
Well, back in 1935, I'm not sure what it's like now. Also not sure if the women exactly partied.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tchambuli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Mead#Research_in_other_societies
http://www.interculturalstudies.org/chambri.html