If Obama was an Independent...

cincybearcat

down_ski wrote:

Being an Obama fan is like being a Red Sox/Yankee fan. You dont know what the fuck you are talking about, you just jump on the bandwagon. And with 95% of the Obama fans out there, this is true.

You have to be kidding...95%...put that number back where you found it...it might hurt though.

decides2dream

MrSmith wrote:

i'll vote for whoever has the best chance at changing things for the better. Nader would be a pretty sure bet if he were the democratic nominee, but he isn't. i believe in compromise and finding common ground, not standing in the corner and pretending i make a difference at the cost of the common good. I don't have to agree with some one 100% to vote for them.

Not that i'm voting for Obama either. Who knows who i'll vote for.

i think this is more than likely true. i think it's simply how the vast majority of people operate. also why as a voter i prefer being an independent, but as a candidate, i think in our system it is best to be a part of a party.

yet another reason for more viable 3rd parties, b/c i do not believe it has to be just 2, long-standing choices. also, i never considered myself an 'obama supporter'....i've been on the fence a good long while. however, for this discussion i don't think it really even matters......and beyond that i think the question could be turned round and asked of nader supporters. would they still back nader, or would they back some other fringe candidate instead? i think BOTH candidates have a lot of supporters who truly BELIEVE in them, but also both have backers who 'follow the trends'...some like the mainstream trend, some like the alternative trend.

unless we somehow as a nation abandon the party system, which i do not forsee.....ALL these issues point more and more towards a great NEEd for viable 3rd party candidates, and 3rd parties with WEIGHT to them, so that some of those who simply follow the mainstream will look elsewhere with a real interest, and perhaps change some voter's ways in the election booth as well, in time.

cincybearcat wrote:

Do you think a lot of people run to these fringe candidates that have a lot of talk of big change, knowing full well that the candidate can't win and that candidate will never have to back up their words with actual action...simply to continue to bitch about the 2-party system and the current situation?

Do you think that if a fringe candidate every became viable, that the added attention would then highlight that individuals definciencies just as it does with the other candidates currently?

I think yes and yes. Not for everyone mind you, but it's exactly the same as people running towards Obama. Hell, the guy is a terrific speaker and certainly makes most people feel like we have hope and greatness is again achievable...I disgree with a bunch of his opinions, but I may end up voting for him for several different reasons. Does that make me a lemming?

i agree, and no i wouldn't think such makes you a lemming but one who is thinking of the big picture, today. i think it really depends on what you want to accomplish with your vote. do you want to affect today and produce action....or do you want to voice your ideals 100%. even candidates i have strongly agreed with/supported in the past, i don't think anyone 100% backs my personal ideals. it would be nice to think you can have it all i guess, but i've yet to see a candidate that can do ALL that. so i hope that by whatever candidate i vote for that my ideals are represented to some extent, to work towards the greater goods of what i would like to see in the future, while being able to actually make some positive changes in the here and now. and only once - 2004 - did i ever feel i voted for the 'lesser of 2 evils'...all else, i guess i simply see as being realistic about my desires.

VictoryGin

decides2dream wrote:

i agree, and no i wouldn't think such makes you a lemming but one who is thinking of the big picture, today. i think it really depends on what you want to accomplish with your vote. do you want to affect today and produce action....or do you want to voice your ideals 100%. even candidates i have strongly agreed with/supported in the past, i don't think anyone 100% backs my personal ideals. it would be nice to think you can have it all i guess, but i've yet to see a candidate that can do ALL that. so i hope that by whatever candidate i vote for that my ideals are represented to some extent, to work towards the greater goods of what i would like to see in the future, while being able to actually make some positive changes in the here and now. and only once - 2004 - did i ever feel i voted for the 'lesser of 2 evils'...all else, i guess i simply see as being realistic about my desires.

beautifully said

i've never been so excited to vote---this year i think i worked out my balance between what i want and what i have a chance to see. yay! some compromise is necessary in relationships, especially in a relationship involving over 300 million people.

Abookamongstthemany

decides2dream wrote:

i think this is more than likely true. i think it's simply how the vast majority of people operate. also why as a voter i prefer being an independent, but as a candidate, i think in our system it is best to be a part of a party.

yet another reason for more viable 3rd parties, b/c i do not believe it has to be just 2, long-standing choices. also, i never considered myself an 'obama supporter'....i've been on the fence a good long while. however, for this discussion i don't think it really even matters......and beyond that i think the question could be turned round and asked of nader supporters. would they still back nader, or would they back some other fringe candidate instead? i think BOTH candidates have a lot of supporters who truly BELIEVE in them, but also both have backers who 'follow the trends'...some like the mainstream trend, some like the alternative trend.

unless we somehow as a nation abandon the party system, which i do not forsee.....ALL these issues point more and more towards a great NEEd for viable 3rd party candidates, and 3rd parties with WEIGHT to them, so that some of those who simply follow the mainstream will look elsewhere with a real interest, and perhaps change some voter's ways in the election booth as well, in time.





i agree, and no i wouldn't think such makes you a lemming but one who is thinking of the big picture, today. i think it really depends on what you want to accomplish with your vote. do you want to affect today and produce action....or do you want to voice your ideals 100%. even candidates i have strongly agreed with/supported in the past, i don't think anyone 100% backs my personal ideals. it would be nice to think you can have it all i guess, but i've yet to see a candidate that can do ALL that. so i hope that by whatever candidate i vote for that my ideals are represented to some extent, to work towards the greater goods of what i would like to see in the future, while being able to actually make some positive changes in the here and now. and only once - 2004 - did i ever feel i voted for the 'lesser of 2 evils'...all else, i guess i simply see as being realistic about my desires.

I'm looking at the big picture, actually and can see past this election. I see that for decades now the Democratic party has become more corrupt and has offered little to no opposition to the Republican agenda....it's like they are one in the same...see the war, patriot act, unwaivering support for Israel, healthcare, foreign policy overall and most recent hawkish talks towards Iran, pandering, lobbyists and special interests (like big pharma, big oil and nuclear power) and the list goes on and on. I need more than this same old shit to say that I'm supporting the progress and change that this country dearly needs. That means I can not in good conscience keep supporting 2 major parties who have nothing to show for their time spent in office but the further deterioration of all the things they've promised time and time again that they would fix once in office. They have failed and have been given more than enough chances to prove themselves. What have they accomplished?


I'm sorry but not being a republican isn't enough to earn my vote anymore. I want someone worth voting for.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I'm looking at the big picture, actually and can see past this election. I see that for decades now the Democratic party has become more corrupt and has offered little to no opposition to the Republican agenda....it's like they are one in the same...see the war, patriot act, unwaivering support for Israel, healthcare, foreign policy overall and most recent hawkish talks towards Iran, pandering, lobbyists and special interests (like big pharma, big oil and nuclear power) and the list goes on and on. I need more than this same old shit to say that I'm supporting the progress and change that this country dearly needs. That means I can not in good conscience keep supporting 2 major parties who have nothing to show for their time spent in office but the further deterioration of all the things they've promised time and time again that they would fix once in office. They have failed and have been given more than enough chances to prove themselves. What have they accomplished?


I'm sorry but not being a republican isn't enough to earn my vote anymore. I want someone worth voting for.

Well said.

(...aid ...aid ...aid)

decides2dream

VictoryGin wrote:

beautifully said

i've never been so excited to vote---this year i think i worked out my balance between what i want and what i have a chance to see. yay! some compromise is necessary in relationships, especially in a relationship involving over 300 million people.

that's really always where my head is at. while it would be nice to imagine my ideals correlate with the vast poplace and thus we all would want the same things, endorse the same people and ideas, i find more often than not, they don't. so i do try and find a candidate who closely mirrors things that are important to me, but also one who i think the vast majority of americans can accept as well. trying to get soooo many people to agree on one candidate, one course of action, etc.....such an impossible task. so i look for leaders who are close to the issues most important to me and who also seem to have the leadership traits i deem so important. compromise is one of the utmost of importance in my mind, looking at things as a whole, realizing you can't always get *exactly* what you want all at once, so always work towards steps that get you ever closer to those ideals. 300 million people, absolutely takes time for change. this is my approach, what works for me and a part of my decision process. i do not expect others to think or follow the same process. again, it's a great thing we all get our voice, our one vote.

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I'm looking at the big picture, actually and can see past this election. I see that for decades now the Democratic party has become more corrupt and has offered little to no opposition to the Republican agenda....it's like they are one in the same...see the war, patriot act, unwaivering support for Israel, healthcare, foreign policy overall and most recent hawkish talks towards Iran, pandering, lobbyists and special interests (like big pharma, big oil and nuclear power) and the list goes on and on. I need more than this same old shit to say that I'm supporting the progress and change that this country dearly needs. That means I can not in good conscience keep supporting 2 major parties who have nothing to show for their time spent in office but the further deterioration of all the things they've promised time and time again that they would fix once in office. They have failed and have been given more than enough chances to prove themselves. What have they accomplished?


I'm sorry but not being a republican isn't enough to earn my vote anymore. I want someone worth voting for.

i am unsure why this post is directed at a quote from me? i was addressing cincy's post and his comment about being a lemming, and my opinion as to why i would not view him in such a light for his choices. that's all. nothing i said was in direction to you, your ideals, or your vote. truly, good for you to sticking to your personal ideals and what you want. everyone should. i would never try to dissuade you or anyone from following their own personal conscience and desires.

for the record, i have never voted for someone simply for 'not being a republican'.......that was never enough to earn my vote.

Abookamongstthemany

decides2dream wrote:

that's really always where my head is at. while it would be nice to imagine my ideals correlate with the vast poplace and thus we all would want the same things, endorse the same people and ideas, i find more often than not, they don't. so i do try and find a candidate who closely mirrors things that are important to me, but also one who i think the vast majority of americans can accept as well. trying to get soooo many people to agree on one candidate, one course of action, etc.....such an impossible task. so i look for leaders who are close to the issues most important to me and who also seem to have the leadership traits i deem so important. compromise is one of the utmost of importance in my mind, looking at things as a whole, realizing you can't always get *exactly* what you want all at once, so always work towards steps that get you ever closer to those ideals. 300 million people, absolutely takes time for change. this is my approach, what works for me and a part of my decision process. i do not expect others to think or follow the same process. again, it's a great thing we all get our voice, our one vote.





i am unsure why this post is directed at a quote from me? i was addressing cincy's post and his comment about being a lemming, and my opinion as to why i would not view him in such a light for his choices. that's all. nothing i said was in direction to you, your ideals, or your vote. truly, good for you to sticking to your personal ideals and what you want. everyone should. i would never try to dissuade you or anyone from following their own personal conscience and desires.

for the record, i have never voted for someone simply for 'not being a republican'.......that was never enough to earn my vote.

It was directed at your position on baby steps and compromise. I don't feel the Dems are making baby steps and if they are it seems like backwards ones. And what's worse is the Democratic party hasn't been compromising with the very people who keep voting them in....so I'm not sure too many of them know jack about compromising. They ignored the people's demands of ending the war in 06 after they ran on ending it. They have ignored the people's desires on single payer UHC, calls for decreasing the defense budget and putting more money back into our dying social programs, have continued to place the interests of lobbyists over the people's needs, supported predatory lenders and are financed by them, even....and so on and so on. Where they need to be compromising, they don't....where they need to stop compromising so much, they have only became more buyable. So I was only trying to highlight my pov of the Dems not being what I would view as baby steps to anywhere.

Abookamongstthemany

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Well said.

(...aid ...aid ...aid)

exactly actly

decides2dream

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

It was directed at your position on baby steps and compromise. I don't feel the Dems are making baby steps and if they are it seems like backwards ones. And what's worse is the Democratic party hasn't been compromising with the very people who keep voting them in....so I'm not sure too many of them know jack about compromising. They ignored the people's demands of ending the war in 06 after they ran on ending it. They have ignored the people's desires on single payer UHC, calls for decreasing the defense budget and putting more money back into our dying social programs, have continued to place the interests of lobbyists over the people's needs, supported predatory lenders and are financed by them, even....and so on and so on. Where they need to be compromising, they don't....where they need to stop compromising so much, they have only became more buyable. So I was only trying to highlight my pov of the Dems not being what I would view as baby steps to anywhere.

aha, i see. ok then. obviously i have a different pov, but i appreciate your points. however, i am not all about the democrats and not really my focus. of course i hold them accountable for their actions, but i do so for everyone. i also do not find them wholly responsible at all for where we are right now. and my ideas of compromise and baby steps....applies to all, regardless of political affiliation.

Abookamongstthemany

decides2dream wrote:

aha, i see. ok then. obviously i have a different pov, but i appreciate your points. however, i am not all about the democrats and not really my focus. of course i hold them accountable for their actions, but i do so for everyone. i also do not find them wholly responsible at all for where we are right now. and my ideas of compromise and baby steps....applies to all, regardless of political affiliation.

as do mine.

I would bring up the republicans which definitely deserve half of my disdain but I really don't feel the need or desire to state the obvious. I discuss the Dems more here because so many still seem to fall for their tired BS still....so that means we can have discussions and compare our opinions against each other....which can lead to understanding, awareness of things we didn't know or hadn't thought of before or simply agree to disagree but not without having our pov tested against a differing view first which can only be a good thing, imo .

Commy

MrBrian wrote:

Would the Obama supporters, still of supported him? I mean if they all "believe" and "hope" so much right?

Fucking bs, they would run to whoever was in the spotlight. fucking cattle.
j/k, kinda.

Serioulsy,would you still be Obama fans? If Nader was the democratic nominee and Obama was an independent, would you vote for Obama? bcoz he is so good right? You must with all that faith.

Think the idea this election, as it is with many, is to say fuck you to the republican party. And it helps to have a charismatic candidate in the process.