So let's see here...as I agree, we shoudln't compare Katrina to the Iowa Floods...but it's okay to say they are in a similar position because one is below sea level on the Gulf and the areas in Iowa were built within the 500 year flood plain? 500 year flood plain?
I seriously wonder about some of you sometime.
That's like saying, earthquakes sometimes happen in Ohio so it's the same as building a house along a fault i California.
I just did a little research. According to the Army Corps of Engineers, Katrina was a 400 year storm.
Yeah, but the chances that hurricane would hit New Orleans dead on and the levey's would break were very slim. People were less likely to evacuate, as in many hurricanes. Plus there's a lot of poor people in New Orleans who had nowhere to go.
Ivan hit Pensacola the year before and was on path to hit NO until it turned... Katrina did the same thing. They just managed to get enough rain and storm surge to finally do what has pretty much been inevitable with all the expansion of that area, declination of wetlands, pathetic infrastructure the fault of poor local state and national politicians (and the voters that put them there) and then the people themselves.... for deciding to stay. The color of skin shouldn't absolve people from making stupid decisions.
If you stay in a soup bowl with a hurricane coming you're taking your life in your hands. The City failed the people that couldn't get out on thier own by not using the resources available to them.
Anyone who had the means to leave (most) that didn't can blame themselves period. Being poor doesn't make you stupid or absolve any blame from bad decisions.
New Orleans is a very poor city that largely depends on government for it's very existance as such many of the low lying areas were poorly conceived. 9th ward should NEVER have existed. Much of the suburbs of the city should never have been built. Army Corps of engineers or not. Levee's are essentially built to enable people to live or grow crops close to a river anything goes wrong... disaster.
Anytime there is a disaster people always look to a scapegoat. The Federal Government who performed quite poorly but also quite normaly given the size and scope of the disaster was the scapegoat. Hell the city reelected that idiot Nagin who was largely responsible for the failure to evacuate properly.
Am I sorry that such a nice city was flooded and destroyed. Of course, but to say there's no real threat of hurricanes or floods hitting an area is just not correct. It's at the mouth of the largest river in North America and south is a large warm body of water never mind the massive lake to the north either.. If any place other than Florida or California is a target for natural disaster it's New Orleans even if it has been a while.
Katrina and Rita were not normal occurances, the woman in the house next to us said in 36 years the water never made it over her doorstep. This was not any one failure it was catestrophic on all levels. I just don't think you can compare the Iowa floods to Katrina and Rita though the people are decidedly different in thier actions I think many in New Orleans were simply caught off guard due to the previous years false alarm. The whining about the government I think came more from celebrities (who love to bitch anyway) than the people in town. There are a lot of good people in new orleans. Most of the ones tough and resiliant enough to stick around anyway.
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
The Iowa vs New Orleans debate is not quite fair because Iowan's largely are independant people who as a community depend on each other for help and they work toegther to achive solutions with thier government people who also have a strong sense of community.
Thanks for the broad brush there. And I used to think you were so cool.
And I swear that line sounded worse when I first hit "Quote."
Thanks for the broad brush there. And I used to think you were so cool.
And I swear that line sounded worse when I first hit "Quote."
I really didn't mean to paint with such a broad brush. I think the situations were far different as is the geography. Re reading what I wrote does sound pretty unfair. Sorry.
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
The government of new orleans (and Louisiana in general) is notoriously corrupt. It was nearly at Boss Tweed levels. and the Levee board was the most corrupt board in the corrupt city. It wasn't suprising to me what happened at all.
On top of that New Orleans had the highest percentage of people completely reliant on the government for support (many of which were born into being overly reliant on the gov't and had no training or incentive to be independent). When the government failed they had no idea what to do. this is partly the fault of poor government welfare programs.
that disaster was one DECADES in the making. probably more like generations in the making. New Orleans was probably the least prepared area in the country for a natural disaster despite being in one of the worst danger zones.
In Mississippi the response was a lot better in part because of a less corrupt gevernment and in part because people dont rely on their government to dig them out. an hour after the storm people were out chainsawing trees and clearing roads and trying to figure out what the hell to do.
I really didn't mean to paint with such a broad brush. I think the situations were far different as is the geography. Re reading what I wrote does sound pretty unfair. Sorry.
S'alright. There's always been plenty of blame to go around -- but I do get irritated when it only goes one way.
I really didn't mean to paint with such a broad brush. I think the situations were far different as is the geography. Re reading what I wrote does sound pretty unfair. Sorry.
I think what you said abotu Iowians was correct though...
The government of new orleans (and Louisiana in general) is notoriously corrupt. It was nearly at Boss Tweed levels. and the Levee board was the most corrupt board in the corrupt city. It wasn't suprising to me what happened at all.
On top of that New Orleans had the highest percentage of people completely reliant on the government for support (many of which were born into being overly reliant on the gov't and had no training or incentive to be independent). When the government failed they had no idea what to do. this is partly the fault of poor government welfare programs.
that disaster was one DECADES in the making. probably more like generations in the making. New Orleans was probably the least prepared area in the country for a natural disaster despite being in one of the worst danger zones.
In Mississippi the response was a lot better in part because of a less corrupt gevernment and in part because people dont rely on their government to dig them out. an hour after the storm people were out chainsawing trees and clearing roads and trying to figure out what the hell to do.
Here's a good example of the differing circumstances I was talking about - though not in the way this particular poster intended (corruption aside).
An hour after the storm, New Orleans was taking on water. By the next day, that water had risen to 20 feet in some areas. 80% flooding here, people. Two weeks later, shit was still under water. But, yeah, chainsaws would have solved all our problems. :rolleyes:
I've been living in Iowa since 2006 (Iowa City)...I can tell you that the community response here has been terrific. Many times, they have to turn volunteers away because they have TOO MANY!!!
The floods have devestated a lot of people's lives. It's been unbelievable to watch. Thankfully, my family has only had to deal with traffic jams from closed roads and didn't experience any loss.
You are right though, I only heard of 1 report of looting, too many people are too busy helping their neighbors and friends to go steal stuff. The other difference, Iowans began to prepare for the worst early...unfortunately their efforts mostly didn;t work (sandbagging was breached, etc.). But it was an entirely different attitude. The attitude was...something's going to happen and I better take care of myself, my family and help whoever I can.
My company sent people out of the plant to help sandbag, they are helping their employees effective recover, with paying for hotels, interest free loans, etc. It's really a community loss and the community is helping itself. That appears to be the Midwest way of life.
Oh, and I've seen ads on TV about contacting FEMA, but I've not seen anyone from FEMA or anything at all.
As far as celebrities go...they hate white people.
I forgot you live in Iowa City...
You are absolutely right about the midwest way of life. I grew up outside of Chicago, moved to Iowa City for college and now live in Scottsdale, AZ.
The people of the midwest are truly good people who look out for one another. Sadly, that is NOT the case here in Arizona. I like living here, but I definitely miss the midwest.
Here you are 15 years after the 1993 flooding still without an adequate levee system throughout the Midwest. New Orleans' levee and pumping system was and is still not adequate. For all the comparisons and reaction for Iowa and its citizens, the point is they were in the same boat as Louisiana and people died. The bottom line has still not been addressed, what is the Army Corp of Engineers responsibility? I know the word 'Army' will make you want to defend the people, but get over it. The Army Corp of Engineers is just another bureaucratic federal government agency whose job it is to assess, recommend and make repairs/replace to the infra structure of this country's bridges, waterways, dams, structures, etc.
By the way, just like in Louisiana and Mississippi teams of emergency first responders for disease control and risk management were immediately sent into Iowa, some before the levees were breached. There are still teams within the various affected areas and just like with Louisiana and Mississippi there will be risk management assessments ongoing because with any major flooding of this scale groundwater contamination becomes a possibility. Iowa was not on its own during this event.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
Here you are 15 years after the 1993 flooding still without an adequate levee system throughout the Midwest. New Orleans' levee and pumping system was and is still not adequate. For all the comparisons and reaction for Iowa and its citizens, the point is they were in the same boat as Louisiana and people died. The bottom line has still not been addressed, what is the Army Corp of Engineers responsibility? I know the word 'Army' will make you want to defend the people, but get over it. The Army Corp of Engineers is just another bureaucratic federal government agency whose job it is to assess, recommend and make repairs/replace to the infra structure of this country's bridges, waterways, dams, structures, etc.
By the way, just like in Louisiana and Mississippi teams of emergency first responders for disease control and risk management were immediately sent into Iowa, some before the levees were breached. There are still teams within the various affected areas and just like with Louisiana and Mississippi there will be risk management assessments ongoing because with any major flooding of this scale groundwater contamination becomes a possibility. Iowa was not on its own during this event.
I was here...I saw it, the majority of the sandbagging, palnning, etc was certainly done by normal people like you and me...now after the disaster, especially in Cedar Rapids, etc. I'm sure that there was plenty of help.
You know what else I didn't see?
Dead bodies of elderly American citizens left unattended in the street for 3 days in a large American city.
...
Why is that?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
if we are comparing states though, i'd much rather live in Louisiana than Iowa. better music, food, plenty of bars...What the fuck is in Iowa?
Corn...and friendly people...not a whole lot else.
Actually, while I certainly am not very fond of iowa...here are some good thing:
1) Friendly people
2) Iowa City is very "outdoorsy"...people always out biking, walking, etc. Great walking paths, hell in the winter the walking paths are clear long before the roads
3) Farmer's markets...I can get fresh produce, breads, pies, etc every single day of the week in a different location but all very close if I want to.
4) The corn...laugh if you want, I did before I came here, but the frech corn from the farmer's market is the best I've ever had.
5) Iowa City has a great Pedestrian mall (meaning walkway with shopping and restaurants/bars). In fact, the bar scene in Iowa CIty is pretty darn good.
6) University of Iowa female students...who know so many hotties came to Iowa City for school?
7) Casinos...if you want one...you don't have to go far...and they even have a dog track
8) Since the flood, all property is water front!!
i feel that both the recent floods in the Heartland and the devistation of the Gulf Coast by Hurricane Katrina are sad natural events.
The saddest thing about both are the sorry ass human beings that compare the two as if they were contests to show whiich people are bwetter or which state 'won'. I am sickened that any American finds sport in tragedy that results in loss of human life and shatter's the lives of other people.
The greatest loss I find in some of these expressed opinions in this thread is the loss of humanity.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
i feel that both the recent floods in the Heartland and the devistation of the Gulf Coast by Hurricane Katrina are sad natural events.
The saddest thing about both are the sorry ass human beings that compare the two as if they were contests to show whiich people are bwetter or which state 'won'. I am sickened that any American finds sport in tragedy that results in loss of human life and shatter's the lives of other people.
The greatest loss I find in some of these expressed opinions in this thread is the loss of humanity.
I don't think anyone is saying 1 state 'won'...I'm just giving my opinion of Iowa as a whole and the response to the disaster that I saw...it was inspiring to see how people helped each other, so when I saw this thread, I thought I'd share.
I don't think anyone is saying 1 state 'won'...I'm just giving my opinion of Iowa as a whole and the response to the disaster that I saw...it was inspiring to see how people helped each other, so when I saw this thread, I thought I'd share.
...
Cincy... I wasn't talking about you. I truely respect your opinions because you always speak from a position that is typically fair.
I have nothing against Iowa or Louisiana. I consider both as part of my country and the people living there as my countrymen, so their sorrow is my sorrow.
I just find it on the disgusting side that people will view both of these seperate natural disasters and spin them into a political 'Us vs. Them' game. I am sick of this nation being torn apart by losers who buy into the Red vs. Blue, Liberal vs. Conservative contest that loser talk show hosts and television and radio networks have sold them to boost their sponsorship revenues.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Corn...and friendly people...not a whole lot else.
Actually, while I certainly am not very fond of iowa...here are some good thing:
1) Friendly people
2) Iowa City is very "outdoorsy"...people always out biking, walking, etc. Great walking paths, hell in the winter the walking paths are clear long before the roads
3) Farmer's markets...I can get fresh produce, breads, pies, etc every single day of the week in a different location but all very close if I want to.
4) The corn...laugh if you want, I did before I came here, but the frech corn from the farmer's market is the best I've ever had.
5) Iowa City has a great Pedestrian mall (meaning walkway with shopping and restaurants/bars). In fact, the bar scene in Iowa CIty is pretty darn good.
6) University of Iowa female students...who know so many hotties came to Iowa City for school?
7) Casinos...if you want one...you don't have to go far...and they even have a dog track
8) Since the flood, all property is water front!!
i like friendly people. probably the most important quality a place can have
i like friendly people. probably the most important quality a place can have
...
You won't find that in L.A.
Which is the main reason I would never want everyone in L.A. to carry a gun. That may fly in Iowa City... but take a drive on the 405 freeway at 4:43 P.M. on Wednesday and take a look around. You'd probably agree with me.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
i feel that both the recent floods in the Heartland and the devistation of the Gulf Coast by Hurricane Katrina are sad natural events.
The saddest thing about both are the sorry ass human beings that compare the two as if they were contests to show whiich people are bwetter or which state 'won'. I am sickened that any American finds sport in tragedy that results in loss of human life and shatter's the lives of other people.
The greatest loss I find in some of these expressed opinions in this thread is the loss of humanity.
Ironically it is the 'loss of humanity' that I am comparing.
Two differnt sets of people experiencing similar events reacting in very differnt ways. One set retaining it's humanity and the other not so much.
Corn...and friendly people...not a whole lot else.
Actually, while I certainly am not very fond of iowa...here are some good thing:
1) Friendly people
2) Iowa City is very "outdoorsy"...people always out biking, walking, etc. Great walking paths, hell in the winter the walking paths are clear long before the roads
3) Farmer's markets...I can get fresh produce, breads, pies, etc every single day of the week in a different location but all very close if I want to.
4) The corn...laugh if you want, I did before I came here, but the frech corn from the farmer's market is the best I've ever had.
5) Iowa City has a great Pedestrian mall (meaning walkway with shopping and restaurants/bars). In fact, the bar scene in Iowa CIty is pretty darn good.
6) University of Iowa female students...who know so many hotties came to Iowa City for school?
7) Casinos...if you want one...you don't have to go far...and they even have a dog track
8) Since the flood, all property is water front!!
Yep.
I lived in Iowa City for 5 years and I have to say it is an amazing "little" town. Cincy summed it up well.
I definitely miss living there!
I still think part of the original post is correct. The local government of New Orleans failed its people resulting in what everyone saw on tv. Then everyone blamed the federal government which is bullshit in my opinion.
The people of Iowa were not failed by their local governments. They took the responsibility upon themselves and a larger catastorphe was prevented.
If the local government of New Orleans had acted upon the plans in place in the event of a major hurricane we would not have seen the loss of life and horrible scenes we all saw on tv.
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
Comments
So there you go. 400 vs 500 thanks for showing how right I am.
Ivan hit Pensacola the year before and was on path to hit NO until it turned... Katrina did the same thing. They just managed to get enough rain and storm surge to finally do what has pretty much been inevitable with all the expansion of that area, declination of wetlands, pathetic infrastructure the fault of poor local state and national politicians (and the voters that put them there) and then the people themselves.... for deciding to stay. The color of skin shouldn't absolve people from making stupid decisions.
If you stay in a soup bowl with a hurricane coming you're taking your life in your hands. The City failed the people that couldn't get out on thier own by not using the resources available to them.
Anyone who had the means to leave (most) that didn't can blame themselves period. Being poor doesn't make you stupid or absolve any blame from bad decisions.
New Orleans is a very poor city that largely depends on government for it's very existance as such many of the low lying areas were poorly conceived. 9th ward should NEVER have existed. Much of the suburbs of the city should never have been built. Army Corps of engineers or not. Levee's are essentially built to enable people to live or grow crops close to a river anything goes wrong... disaster.
Anytime there is a disaster people always look to a scapegoat. The Federal Government who performed quite poorly but also quite normaly given the size and scope of the disaster was the scapegoat. Hell the city reelected that idiot Nagin who was largely responsible for the failure to evacuate properly.
Am I sorry that such a nice city was flooded and destroyed. Of course, but to say there's no real threat of hurricanes or floods hitting an area is just not correct. It's at the mouth of the largest river in North America and south is a large warm body of water never mind the massive lake to the north either.. If any place other than Florida or California is a target for natural disaster it's New Orleans even if it has been a while.
Katrina and Rita were not normal occurances, the woman in the house next to us said in 36 years the water never made it over her doorstep. This was not any one failure it was catestrophic on all levels. I just don't think you can compare the Iowa floods to Katrina and Rita though the people are decidedly different in thier actions I think many in New Orleans were simply caught off guard due to the previous years false alarm. The whining about the government I think came more from celebrities (who love to bitch anyway) than the people in town. There are a lot of good people in new orleans. Most of the ones tough and resiliant enough to stick around anyway.
:cool:
Still, below sea-level or not, storms like Katrina aren't as common as often implied.
And I swear that line sounded worse when I first hit "Quote."
I really didn't mean to paint with such a broad brush. I think the situations were far different as is the geography. Re reading what I wrote does sound pretty unfair. Sorry.
On top of that New Orleans had the highest percentage of people completely reliant on the government for support (many of which were born into being overly reliant on the gov't and had no training or incentive to be independent). When the government failed they had no idea what to do. this is partly the fault of poor government welfare programs.
that disaster was one DECADES in the making. probably more like generations in the making. New Orleans was probably the least prepared area in the country for a natural disaster despite being in one of the worst danger zones.
In Mississippi the response was a lot better in part because of a less corrupt gevernment and in part because people dont rely on their government to dig them out. an hour after the storm people were out chainsawing trees and clearing roads and trying to figure out what the hell to do.
I guess I can still think you're cool. :cool:
I think what you said abotu Iowians was correct though...
An hour after the storm, New Orleans was taking on water. By the next day, that water had risen to 20 feet in some areas. 80% flooding here, people. Two weeks later, shit was still under water. But, yeah, chainsaws would have solved all our problems. :rolleyes:
without even reading much of the thread... (sorry if this has been said)
You cannot compare a flood, which gave WEEKS of warning to the people of the midwest, to a storm that OVERNIGHT devastated an entire city.
If you're on your rooftop in Iowa after you've had 3 weeks to get out, you're a fucking idiot.
If you're on your rooftop in Orleans after being warned you should PROBABLY leave, you are just a little ignorant.
you'd be suprised. i havent ran into many problems a chainsaw wouldnt solve.
I forgot you live in Iowa City...
You are absolutely right about the midwest way of life. I grew up outside of Chicago, moved to Iowa City for college and now live in Scottsdale, AZ.
The people of the midwest are truly good people who look out for one another. Sadly, that is NOT the case here in Arizona. I like living here, but I definitely miss the midwest.
By the way, just like in Louisiana and Mississippi teams of emergency first responders for disease control and risk management were immediately sent into Iowa, some before the levees were breached. There are still teams within the various affected areas and just like with Louisiana and Mississippi there will be risk management assessments ongoing because with any major flooding of this scale groundwater contamination becomes a possibility. Iowa was not on its own during this event.
I was here...I saw it, the majority of the sandbagging, palnning, etc was certainly done by normal people like you and me...now after the disaster, especially in Cedar Rapids, etc. I'm sure that there was plenty of help.
Dead bodies of elderly American citizens left unattended in the street for 3 days in a large American city.
...
Why is that?
Hail, Hail!!!
Corn...and friendly people...not a whole lot else.
Actually, while I certainly am not very fond of iowa...here are some good thing:
1) Friendly people
2) Iowa City is very "outdoorsy"...people always out biking, walking, etc. Great walking paths, hell in the winter the walking paths are clear long before the roads
3) Farmer's markets...I can get fresh produce, breads, pies, etc every single day of the week in a different location but all very close if I want to.
4) The corn...laugh if you want, I did before I came here, but the frech corn from the farmer's market is the best I've ever had.
5) Iowa City has a great Pedestrian mall (meaning walkway with shopping and restaurants/bars). In fact, the bar scene in Iowa CIty is pretty darn good.
6) University of Iowa female students...who know so many hotties came to Iowa City for school?
7) Casinos...if you want one...you don't have to go far...and they even have a dog track
8) Since the flood, all property is water front!!
The saddest thing about both are the sorry ass human beings that compare the two as if they were contests to show whiich people are bwetter or which state 'won'. I am sickened that any American finds sport in tragedy that results in loss of human life and shatter's the lives of other people.
The greatest loss I find in some of these expressed opinions in this thread is the loss of humanity.
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't think anyone is saying 1 state 'won'...I'm just giving my opinion of Iowa as a whole and the response to the disaster that I saw...it was inspiring to see how people helped each other, so when I saw this thread, I thought I'd share.
Cincy... I wasn't talking about you. I truely respect your opinions because you always speak from a position that is typically fair.
I have nothing against Iowa or Louisiana. I consider both as part of my country and the people living there as my countrymen, so their sorrow is my sorrow.
I just find it on the disgusting side that people will view both of these seperate natural disasters and spin them into a political 'Us vs. Them' game. I am sick of this nation being torn apart by losers who buy into the Red vs. Blue, Liberal vs. Conservative contest that loser talk show hosts and television and radio networks have sold them to boost their sponsorship revenues.
Hail, Hail!!!
You won't find that in L.A.
Which is the main reason I would never want everyone in L.A. to carry a gun. That may fly in Iowa City... but take a drive on the 405 freeway at 4:43 P.M. on Wednesday and take a look around. You'd probably agree with me.
Hail, Hail!!!
Ironically it is the 'loss of humanity' that I am comparing.
Two differnt sets of people experiencing similar events reacting in very differnt ways. One set retaining it's humanity and the other not so much.
So then... What is the greatest difference in the 'different sets of people' do you feel attributes to these vastly opposite reactions?
Hail, Hail!!!
Culture. Mainly the sense of personal responsibility that exists in one and not the other.
suddenly you're holding back...come on now, why don't you say what you want to...?
I thought you didn't like PC...
Yep.
I lived in Iowa City for 5 years and I have to say it is an amazing "little" town. Cincy summed it up well.
I definitely miss living there!
The people of Iowa were not failed by their local governments. They took the responsibility upon themselves and a larger catastorphe was prevented.
If the local government of New Orleans had acted upon the plans in place in the event of a major hurricane we would not have seen the loss of life and horrible scenes we all saw on tv.
Pensacola '94
New Orleans '95
Birmingham '98
New Orleans '00
New Orleans '03
Tampa '08
New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest
New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest
Fenway Park '18
St. Louis '22