Yes, I think those kinds of prisons in your link are torture and disgusting. No human should ever be treated in such a manner. To be honest, I always thought solitary confinment was something that was used in regular prisons when an inmate was being punished for a short period of time for behavioral problems and whatnot. I didn't know whole prisons operated this way. This shit is truly sick.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Anyways, Speedy, you deftly circumvented my original point - namely that there's a great many captives that are innocent. Could you please address that. How would you feel, as an innocent, about being taken away, imprisoned, tortured, not given legal recourse, and finally set free months or years later. Its happening alot, hence the mass releases of these people at Gitmo and other "dark sites" run by the US.
Anyways, Speedy, you deftly circumvented my original point - namely that there's a great many captives that are innocent. Could you please address that. How would you feel, as an innocent, about being taken away, imprisoned, tortured, not given legal recourse, and finally set free months or years later. Its happening alot, hence the mass releases of these people at Gitmo and other "dark sites" run by the US.
the same exact way you would feel.....
fucking outraged.........
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
Don't lie, it did'nt say that, I know that because I read your post before you made the edit. I was just asking why you made the edit in the first place.
Don't lie, it did'nt say that, I know that because I read your post before you made the edit. I was just asking why you made the edit in the first place.
But don't worry, i'll move on
please try to refrain from calling me a fucking liar......i have no fucking reason to lie.....
it was a one word post........
it went something like this.....
easy............
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
Don't lie, it did'nt say that, I know that because I read your post before you made the edit. I was just asking why you made the edit in the first place.
But don't worry, i'll move on
so you read my post????
and it wasnt a one word reply????
who is now the fucking liar?????
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
Don't lie, it did'nt say that, I know that because I read your post before you made the edit. I was just asking why you made the edit in the first place.
But don't worry, i'll move on
i have been reading this thread from the beginning
im sorry....i dont remember discussing the 10's of thousands of Iraqi civilians here..
you must have posted in the wrong thread....
this thread is about 14 suspected terrorists and their imprisonment......
Dont try to hide behind a thread title..be a man, answer the question. You're obviously and rightly upset about 2800 9/11 death count....why are you then defending a regime that's killed 10x as many people. They are related and stop using laughter, semantics, and thread title names to ignore answering the questions.
... a central problem is that terrorism ... does not fall neatly under the heading of either crime or war ... terrorists are neither suspects nor soldiers. Until someone commits an act of terrorism, there is no crime, and hence no suspect. And because they act to conceal their status as combatants (as opposed to a combatant who merely tries to conceal himself by camouflage or hiding), terrorists are not soldiers.
... there is a proper legal category for terrorists. They are best thought of as spies, or enemy secret agents. The tactics and procedures that are appropriate for trying to apprehend spies in a time of war are appropriate for dealing with terrorists. Those tactics include counter-espionage and surveillance. Enemy spies do not fall under the Geneva Convention treatment for prisoners of war.
(Fascinating! I didn't know about spies and geneva ... and I think I know what happens to spies. And like my earlier comment, he's all for NAMING our enemies and not the tactics they use, declare war on specific people, groups, associations whatever, but not "terror." So we have some alleged pretty bad dudes, again, no biggie how they were "held" if it was humane and any discussion of that is just speculation anyways, so now what? Enemy combatants? Spies? International Criminal?)
We knew that Zubaydah had more information that could save innocent lives. But he stopped talking. As his questioning proceeded, it became clear that he had received training on how to resist interrogation. And so, the CIA used an alternative set of procedures.
These procedures were designed to be safe, to comply with our laws, our Constitution and our treaty obligations. The Department of Justice reviewed the authorized methods extensively, and determined them to be lawful.
I cannot describe the specific methods used. I think you understand why. If I did, it would help the terrorists learn how to resist questioning and to keep information from us that we need to prevent new attacks on our country. But I can say the procedures were tough and they were safe and lawful and necessary.
(Some here take Ahmadinejad at this words, can you do the same for this man?)
I asked if you understood what this was about, your reply was "easy....."
You did not say "take it easy" I asked why you made the edit because I did'nt understand why after I asked you if you understood said article you would reply with "easy...." which to me gives the impression you do understand but refuse to give an answer, your reply had no indication of telling me to "take it easy", nevertheless after reading your last couple posts, I think you need to "take it easy", dude
I was just trying to make sense of your one word post which you then made an edit to.
i tend to agree but we're supposed to be for human rights and all that shit. we took Saddam out because of "crimes against humanity". we can't torture people and still be an advocate for human rights.
I'm so torn on how to fight this "war on terror". I just don't think we can kill them all quick enough... more pop up too fast. There has to be another way.
there is; stop giving them money!!!!
look at our past 4 of our passt 5 wars <excluding kosovo>
panama - noriega was put in power w/ cia help
iraq - saddam was put in and kept in power w/ our help...while he was actually doing all these bad things we ignored it, vetoed sanctions against him for it and kept giving him money and weapons
afghanistan - the taliban gained momentum in the 80's while we dumped a lot of money and weapons on eventual 'terrorists' <we even trained some of them here in the states>, the taliban also recieved money from the us
iraq <again> - same as above...same ppl who gave him money, weapons and support now saying he is like hitler
it should also be noted the repeate performers in all this...cheney, rummy, wolfowitz, perle, addington...
and the worst part is we still haven't learned our lesson. america gives support based on what will work best for our/corporate interests. that's why we still give billions to colombia who's government is corrupt, repressive, oppressive, their military has mountains of rape cases against it <as well as executions, kidnappings, theft of property at gunpoint...>
if you wanna have some fun look up a list of who we give 'aid' to, then go to a site like amnesty international and look at their annual reports for those countries...we support places that lock up/disappear protestors, journalists, human rights workers, the ppl have no political rights or freedom of expression, no religion, one place even made ballet illegal...there's some pretty nasty stuff in those reports, some pretty horrible abuses, all paid for, in part, by your tax dollar.
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
what do you wish to happen to those 14 wonderful individuals???
who said they were 'wonderful individuals'?? why must you take to the extreme to try and validate your 'point' <or rather, to get out of dealing w/ hers>
it's ok to hate the player AND the game...not liking ppl like this is pretty much commonplace here...but what about the ppl who help create them? why give them a free pass even tho they are still doing it?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
No, dude, Iraqi's don't count. They're just Muslims - or "towelheads" and "sandniggers" as some American soldiers like to call them. No, forget about trying to tell him that 2800 Iraqi's are dying EVERY FUCKING MONTH b/c of a putrid, self-serving, grotesquely-manipulated war started by the U.S. of A.
did ya know in colombia in 03 'more than 3,000 civilians were killed for political motives and at least 600 "disappeared". Around 2,200 people were kidnapped'? more than died on 9/11...in 02 'more than 4,000 civilians were killed for political motives. Forced internal displacement continued to grow dramatically. Over 2,700 people were kidnapped'. in 'In the first half of 2004, at least 1,400 civilians were killed or “disappeared”. During the year, around 1,250 people were kidnapped and 287,000 were forced to flee their homes.'? http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/colombia/index.do
and they receive over a billion in total aid from us
does their innocence matter at all?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
thanks sooo much for this post.
I was close to put one out myself... just heart the confirmation on the news tonight.
Now I am furious.
I mean the news is not that big of a surprise, but still.
My favourite magazine (Spiegel, jaja, that's the one ) brought it up when our big CIA (German style) scandal was around.
it was the scandal that US military aircrafts with prisoners on board stopped in Germany very often and we did not know or so...
anyway, back then, maybe a year ago (or longer???), the paper assumed that there were those prisons in Europe, probably in Poland and Rumania.
But it was deeply denied by the US government.
and now, it is confirmed after three years (or longer???)
wtf, I mean, American people, what is up?
Would you please wake up?
As you can imagine, Europe (and especially the WEST part - as far as I know like France, Italy, the Benelux and Germany) is not amused at all and demands full coverage.
We achieved some rights the last two hundreds of years here and we indeed live it still....
and yes, the United States made the laws and rights even better in the beginning of democracy.
but now all seems to be blown away in one shot, just within the Bush period.
nahhh... that is a bummer, indeed.
but not even the US may trick the mass population of Europe!
all lies, all denials...
so bad.
but I hope something will happen now, here in Europe.
that was indeed a big speak of Mr. Bush yesterday.
argh this man!
there is no way to peace, peace is the way!
...the world is come undone, I like to change it everyday but change don't come at once, it's a wave, building before it breaks.
thanks sooo much for this post.
I was close to put one out myself... just heart the confirmation on the news tonight.
Now I am furious.
I mean the news is not that big of a surprise, but still.
My favourite magazine (Spiegel, jaja, that's the one ) brought it up when our big CIA (German style) scandal was around.
it was the scandal that US military aircrafts with prisoners on board stopped in Germany very often and we did not know or so...
anyway, back then, maybe a year ago (or longer???), the paper assumed that there were those prisons in Europe, probably in Poland and Rumania.
But it was deeply denied by the US government.
and now, it is confirmed after three years (or longer???)
wtf, I mean, American people, what is up?
Would you please wake up?
As you can imagine, Europe (and especially the WEST part - as far as I know like France, Italy, the Benelux and Germany) is not amused at all and demands full coverage.
We achieved some rights the last two hundreds of years here and we indeed live it still....
and yes, the United States made the laws and rights even better in the beginning of democracy.
but now all seems to be blown away in one shot, just within the Bush period.
nahhh... that is a bummer, indeed.
but not even the US may trick the mass population of Europe!
all lies, all denials...
so bad.
but I hope something will happen now, here in Europe.
that was indeed a big speak of Mr. Bush yesterday.
argh this man!
Couldnt agree more..one thing the people of the US dont understand is that the worst possible time to F up is when you are on top.
one thing the people of the US dont understand is that the worst possible time to F up is when you are on top.
... tellya Germany learned the lesson of falling deep already
thanks for supporting my little outcome.
that was very nice and gives me hope, of course.
there is no way to peace, peace is the way!
...the world is come undone, I like to change it everyday but change don't come at once, it's a wave, building before it breaks.
Comments
Yes, I think those kinds of prisons in your link are torture and disgusting. No human should ever be treated in such a manner. To be honest, I always thought solitary confinment was something that was used in regular prisons when an inmate was being punished for a short period of time for behavioral problems and whatnot. I didn't know whole prisons operated this way. This shit is truly sick.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
fucking outraged.........
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
Don't lie, it did'nt say that, I know that because I read your post before you made the edit. I was just asking why you made the edit in the first place.
But don't worry, i'll move on
it was a one word post........
it went something like this.....
easy............
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
so you read my post????
and it wasnt a one word reply????
who is now the fucking liar?????
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
i have been reading this thread from the beginning
the original post was, as stated
one word.....easy
speedy did not lie
Dont try to hide behind a thread title..be a man, answer the question. You're obviously and rightly upset about 2800 9/11 death count....why are you then defending a regime that's killed 10x as many people. They are related and stop using laughter, semantics, and thread title names to ignore answering the questions.
- Arnold Kling
... a central problem is that terrorism ... does not fall neatly under the heading of either crime or war ... terrorists are neither suspects nor soldiers. Until someone commits an act of terrorism, there is no crime, and hence no suspect. And because they act to conceal their status as combatants (as opposed to a combatant who merely tries to conceal himself by camouflage or hiding), terrorists are not soldiers.
... there is a proper legal category for terrorists. They are best thought of as spies, or enemy secret agents. The tactics and procedures that are appropriate for trying to apprehend spies in a time of war are appropriate for dealing with terrorists. Those tactics include counter-espionage and surveillance. Enemy spies do not fall under the Geneva Convention treatment for prisoners of war.
(Fascinating! I didn't know about spies and geneva ... and I think I know what happens to spies. And like my earlier comment, he's all for NAMING our enemies and not the tactics they use, declare war on specific people, groups, associations whatever, but not "terror." So we have some alleged pretty bad dudes, again, no biggie how they were "held" if it was humane and any discussion of that is just speculation anyways, so now what? Enemy combatants? Spies? International Criminal?)
So what's next? Innocent Americans? Will we start seeing "Mothers of the Disappeared" around our shopping malls?????
Shades of the Pinochet government.
Shame, shame, shame.
These procedures were designed to be safe, to comply with our laws, our Constitution and our treaty obligations. The Department of Justice reviewed the authorized methods extensively, and determined them to be lawful.
I cannot describe the specific methods used. I think you understand why. If I did, it would help the terrorists learn how to resist questioning and to keep information from us that we need to prevent new attacks on our country. But I can say the procedures were tough and they were safe and lawful and necessary.
(Some here take Ahmadinejad at this words, can you do the same for this man?)
I asked if you understood what this was about, your reply was "easy....."
You did not say "take it easy" I asked why you made the edit because I did'nt understand why after I asked you if you understood said article you would reply with "easy...." which to me gives the impression you do understand but refuse to give an answer, your reply had no indication of telling me to "take it easy", nevertheless after reading your last couple posts, I think you need to "take it easy", dude
I was just trying to make sense of your one word post which you then made an edit to.
there is; stop giving them money!!!!
look at our past 4 of our passt 5 wars <excluding kosovo>
panama - noriega was put in power w/ cia help
iraq - saddam was put in and kept in power w/ our help...while he was actually doing all these bad things we ignored it, vetoed sanctions against him for it and kept giving him money and weapons
afghanistan - the taliban gained momentum in the 80's while we dumped a lot of money and weapons on eventual 'terrorists' <we even trained some of them here in the states>, the taliban also recieved money from the us
iraq <again> - same as above...same ppl who gave him money, weapons and support now saying he is like hitler
it should also be noted the repeate performers in all this...cheney, rummy, wolfowitz, perle, addington...
and the worst part is we still haven't learned our lesson. america gives support based on what will work best for our/corporate interests. that's why we still give billions to colombia who's government is corrupt, repressive, oppressive, their military has mountains of rape cases against it <as well as executions, kidnappings, theft of property at gunpoint...>
if you wanna have some fun look up a list of who we give 'aid' to, then go to a site like amnesty international and look at their annual reports for those countries...we support places that lock up/disappear protestors, journalists, human rights workers, the ppl have no political rights or freedom of expression, no religion, one place even made ballet illegal...there's some pretty nasty stuff in those reports, some pretty horrible abuses, all paid for, in part, by your tax dollar.
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
who said they were 'wonderful individuals'?? why must you take to the extreme to try and validate your 'point' <or rather, to get out of dealing w/ hers>
it's ok to hate the player AND the game...not liking ppl like this is pretty much commonplace here...but what about the ppl who help create them? why give them a free pass even tho they are still doing it?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
did ya know in colombia in 03 'more than 3,000 civilians were killed for political motives and at least 600 "disappeared". Around 2,200 people were kidnapped'? more than died on 9/11...in 02 'more than 4,000 civilians were killed for political motives. Forced internal displacement continued to grow dramatically. Over 2,700 people were kidnapped'. in 'In the first half of 2004, at least 1,400 civilians were killed or “disappeared”. During the year, around 1,250 people were kidnapped and 287,000 were forced to flee their homes.'?
http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/colombia/index.do
and they receive over a billion in total aid from us
does their innocence matter at all?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
El_Kabong to the rescue
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
I was close to put one out myself... just heart the confirmation on the news tonight.
Now I am furious.
I mean the news is not that big of a surprise, but still.
My favourite magazine (Spiegel, jaja, that's the one
it was the scandal that US military aircrafts with prisoners on board stopped in Germany very often and we did not know or so...
anyway, back then, maybe a year ago (or longer???), the paper assumed that there were those prisons in Europe, probably in Poland and Rumania.
But it was deeply denied by the US government.
and now, it is confirmed after three years (or longer???)
wtf, I mean, American people, what is up?
Would you please wake up?
As you can imagine, Europe (and especially the WEST part - as far as I know like France, Italy, the Benelux and Germany) is not amused at all and demands full coverage.
We achieved some rights the last two hundreds of years here and we indeed live it still....
and yes, the United States made the laws and rights even better in the beginning of democracy.
but now all seems to be blown away in one shot, just within the Bush period.
nahhh... that is a bummer, indeed.
but not even the US may trick the mass population of Europe!
all lies, all denials...
so bad.
but I hope something will happen now, here in Europe.
that was indeed a big speak of Mr. Bush yesterday.
argh this man!
...the world is come undone, I like to change it everyday but change don't come at once, it's a wave, building before it breaks.
Couldnt agree more..one thing the people of the US dont understand is that the worst possible time to F up is when you are on top.
... tellya Germany learned the lesson of falling deep already
thanks for supporting my little outcome.
that was very nice and gives me hope, of course.
...the world is come undone, I like to change it everyday but change don't come at once, it's a wave, building before it breaks.