Books

nuffingman

catefrances wrote:

aaahh the so called classics.

there is nothing worse than being in a class discussing a book and realising that at least half the class have not read the book. i often wonder why they bother to come to class if they can not contribute. at uni i have had to read several books that in my everyday life i would not have picked up. jane eyre, women in love, madam bovary for example.
i think it would be better practice to have the students who have not read the book, write a cohesive argument as to why they felt they couldn't read the book. what was it about the book they found offensive or difficult to grasp and not accept a shrug of the shoulders of students who are just plain lazy. or in a perfect world, give an alternate reading.

Exactly, and what happened to the students who didn't read the book?

They failed!

lucylespian

Heineken Helen wrote:

How am I out of my mind? That wasn't how I see books... that was my explanation for why books may not be so popular today as they were! Can you think of a better reason?

I never knew they were a feminine thing either.

I had not read the whole thread, time constraint thng, so I saw your remark out of context as well, and reacted pretty much the same way. Remember that people often come on to a thread at the end and placing your comment in context would have helped the misinterpretation.
I apologise for any offence.
As to the feminine thing, Steve Biddulph explains how boys are taught to detest reading, and unfortunately many of them shun books for too much of their lives. I make it a mission to try and turn that around, since reading and books have essentially saved my life, pretty much totally taking the place of the education system which utterly failed me. I have had some success there.

Rarely have I seen a film as good as the books. The LOTR series did complement the written word though, bringing to life scenes and providing a visual feast where Tolkein skimmed a little, the Balrogs and the City of Gondor being two remarkable examples.
The plot changes in the first one however, were unforgivable. I have been told they were done to accomodate the illiterate US audience, an equally unforgivable excuse.

Heineken Helen

nuffingman wrote:

Ah, so it's not necessarily the curriculum's fault, it's possibly mine! You try asking a child to read if thay don't want to. What would happen if the teacher's didn't hand out notes? Answer, the kids would have to read the books.

I had to read Northanger Abbey when I was at school, hated it but had no choice but read it about 4 times. I've hated Jane Austen ever since.

Edit: We also live in a house with hundreds of books and they never see me without one. Seem to be more interested in effing MSN and other mind numbing exploits.

I'm not saying it's easy... but a parent cannot entirely blame a curriculum for their child not learning properly. You can teach your kids extra stuff at home or even move them to another school.

I remember reading Northanger Abbey... god, I was so much more intelligent as an 11/12 year old. I used to LOVE Jane Austen and Shakespeare

Heineken Helen

lucylespian wrote:

I had not read the whole thread, time constraint thng, so I saw your remark out of context as well, and reacted pretty much the same way. Remember that people often come on to a thread at the end and placing your comment in context would have helped the misinterpretation.
I apologise for any offence.

Rarely have I seen a film as good as the books. The LOTR series did complement the written word though, bringing to life scenes and providing a visual feast where Tolkein skimmed a little, the Balrogs and the City of Gondor being two remarkable examples.
The plot changes in the first one however, were unforgivable. I have been told they were done to accomodate the illiterate US audience, an equally unforgivable excuse.

Apology accepted, but please let it be a lesson to ya and try to refrain from jumping into threads without reading them and taking things out of context. It’s like just reading the liner notes and not the whole book, eh? Also, ‘you’re out of your mind’ isn’t really a great counter argument No offence taken though.

Also I never said films were as good as books! I like films, I like books… I haven’t read every book of every film I have ever seen though so I cannot say that outright books are better than their films.

nuffingman

Heineken Helen wrote:

I'm not saying it's easy... but a parent cannot entirely blame a curriculum for their child not learning properly. You can teach your kids extra stuff at home or even move them to another school.

I remember reading Northanger Abbey... god, I was so much more intelligent as an 11/12 year old. I used to LOVE Jane Austen and Shakespeare

Unfortunately moving them to other schools doesn't help. It happens at all of them locally.

Hmmmm Jane Austen, all I can remember are descriptions of dresses and other nonsense. I'm sure the working title for the Pride and Prejudice film was "A lot of women running around squealing and listening at doors"

Heineken Helen

nuffingman wrote:

Unfortunately moving them to other schools doesn't help. It happens at all of them locally.

Hmmmm Jane Austen, all I can remember are descriptions of dresses and other nonsense. I'm sure the working title for the Pride and Prejudice film was "A lot of women running around squealing and listening at doors"

Yes, I'm sure that will be a popular opinion in this thread

elmer

when great novels are converted to film the story be reduced to an emaciated shadow of his former self,,,,,,,,,,take the Godfather, War&Peace, Cold Mountain, English Patient, Green Mile.........doesnt mean the films arent good in their own right but the original form has been condensed, literary bulemia is borne. Words and phrases that could make a work immortal can be omitted but thats okay, cut the oak tree down to size to suit the market. Next to a film books can appear intimidating and impenetrable but there is nothing wrong with a little bit of obesity, jusr want to take things in.


The appetite for a quick culture fix is the plague of our times. Witness the fashion for short books(abridged classics series, short films(maybe...), short theatre( not my thing but there is a reduced shakesphere company). Its a paradox of the affulent society that the more time we have on our hands the less we seem to have to fill the hours. Reading,as a result, becomes less of a pleasure and more of a chore.

Hitch-Hiker

elmer wrote:

The appetite for a quick culture fix is the plague of our times. Witness the fashion for short books(abridged classics series, short films(maybe...), short theatre( not my thing but there is a reduced shakesphere company). Its a paradox of the affulent society that the more time we have on our hands the less we seem to have to fill the hours. Reading,as a result, becomes less of a pleasure and more of a chore.

I agree with your point wholeheartedly, but I have to pick one or two holes in your last few sentences
Short films, definitely aren't in fashion right now. A look at the latest summer blockbusters (Spiderman 3, Pirates 3) will show you that.
And the reduced Shakespeare company are actually a 3 -man comedy group who use Shakespeare as their source material. Their aim is not to condense Shakespeares plays to appeal to the masses. I have seen their main show (The Entire works of Shakespeare in an hour and a half ) and it is hilarious - very clever comedy. I highly recommend seeing them if they're in your town

Again, I do agree with you. Just picking holes for the laugh

wavescamecrashing

speaking from a teacher's point of view, the kids find reading an entire book 'long' so its better that they get what they need to pass the exam if reading the whole book isnt an option...

personally, i feel that's a cop out. and the bastards should read in silence in class until the book is finished.;) of course you then have the problems of fast and slow readers, the kids who will read the whole book at home in a weekend and others who put it down after the first page...

its tricky. I always loved reading. except, funnily enough, austen. why on earth is she so revered? its boring.

Heineken Helen

clairenordon wrote:

speaking from a teacher's point of view, the kids find reading an entire book 'long' so its better that they get what they need to pass the exam if reading the whole book isnt an option...

personally, i feel that's a cop out. and the bastards should read in silence in class until the book is finished.;) of course you then have the problems of fast and slow readers, the kids who will read the whole book at home in a weekend and others who put it down after the first page...

its tricky. I always loved reading. except, funnily enough, austen. why on earth is she so revered? its boring.

Huh? :eek: Do you make them just sit there and read it? Isn't it best to get them to take turns reading it out loud and then analysing each part?

I remember when we did Wuthering Heights... I literally knew the entire book off by heart by the time I sat the exam. I could still quote quite a bit of it now.

wavescamecrashing

you see, they can take a copy of the book in with them in most cases.

i personally favour making the whole class read the whole thing out loud, maybe setting chapters for homework, having tests on stuff, doing writing exercises and having class discussions as exam prep.

but more and more teachers are finding that kids cant get through a book, no concentration or desire to, they prefer to watch the film. Also, it can simply take too long to read the whole novel in class, when you have to deal with two other exams and coursework.

this is why im such an advocate of reading in general,it improves literacy skills and behaviour. But i think u need to have the kids interested in the book from teh off, or it doesnt work

wavescamecrashing

i dont think i would get the whole class reading silently to themselves anyway,

i used to love reading for a whole english class, just got right into the book, it made school more bearable for me...

but it seems thats no longer the case for students, you must hear the tales of graduates being incompetant, or not citing books in a dissertation, etc

Heineken Helen

clairenordon wrote:

you see, they can take a copy of the book in with them in most cases.

i personally favour making the whole class read the whole thing out loud, maybe setting chapters for homework, having tests on stuff, doing writing exercises and having class discussions as exam prep.

but more and more teachers are finding that kids cant get through a book, no concentration or desire to, they prefer to watch the film. Also, it can simply take too long to read the whole novel in class, when you have to deal with two other exams and coursework.

this is why im such an advocate of reading in general,it improves literacy skills and behaviour. But i think u need to have the kids interested in the book from teh off, or it doesnt work

No offense... but wouldn't that depend on the teacher? Our teacher had no problem going through it all and yet still thoroughly covering the rest of the curriculum also. As an English teacher, if you can't make the kids interested or keep their attention, wouldn't you be a failure? I really don't want to offend here but our English teacher just made everything fascinating. We watched the film of Wuthering Heights in class when we'd finished the book (the Ralph Feinnes one) and I'd say the vast majority of us would have chosen the book over the film.

I cant believe teachers are simply accepting failure and giving in to what kids want? :(

wavescamecrashing

i dont think i would get the whole class reading silently to themselves anyway,

i used to love reading for a whole english class, just got right into the book, it made school more bearable for me...

but it seems thats no longer the case for students, you must hear the tales of graduates being incompetant, or not citing books in a dissertation, etc

polaris

thing is different people have different tastes in books ... great literary works don't appeal to everyone ... i like the idea of letting students choose their books ...

Heineken Helen

polaris wrote:

thing is different people have different tastes in books ... great literary works don't appeal to everyone ... i like the idea of letting students choose their books ...

I'm not so sure about that... well ok, maybe there should be a selection of books but then there is NO way that the teacher could cover all the books. Unless there were a number of classes in one year and each class studies a certain book. You're in the class of the book you've decided to study but then kids being as influenced as they are, they'll just pick the books their friends pick.

Look, we don't have one of the best educational systems in the world for nothing

polaris

Heineken Helen wrote:

I'm not so sure about that... well ok, maybe there should be a selection of books but then there is NO way that the teacher could cover all the books. Unless there were a number of classes in one year and each class studies a certain book. You're in the class of the book you've decided to study but then kids being as influenced as they are, they'll just pick the books their friends pick.

Look, we don't have one of the best educational systems in the world for nothing

i've got irish friends and i'll refrain from commenting on that ...

shorter novels i think are ok in class ...

i just think that not everyone will enjoy every book ... if the goal is to get them to read and to explore their imagination and to learn from books - then you are better off allowing a kid to pick his or her own book ...

Heineken Helen

polaris wrote:

i've got irish friends and i'll refrain from commenting on that ...

shorter novels i think are ok in class ...

i just think that not everyone will enjoy every book ... if the goal is to get them to read and to explore their imagination and to learn from books - then you are better off allowing a kid to pick his or her own book ...

True... but without some kinda regulation, that could have disastrous consequences! Kids left to their own devices regarding education??? :eek:

Shorter novels agreed! Our first book was 'walkabout', then for the junior cert we did to kill a mockingbird, and then wuthering heights for the leaving cert... so it got bigger and bigger

For example, the leaving cert, we had to study a novel, a play (we did the plough and the stars from Sean O'Casey, Romeo and Juliet for the Junior cert) and a certain number of poems... mainly Irish poets: Yeats, Kavanagh, etc. and some other ones.

polaris

Heineken Helen wrote:

True... but without some kinda regulation, that could have disastrous consequences! Kids left to their own devices regarding education??? :eek:

Shorter novels agreed! Our first book was 'walkabout', then for the junior cert we did to kill a mockingbird, and then wuthering heights for the leaving cert... so it got bigger and bigger

For example, the leaving cert, we had to study a novel, a play (we did the plough and the stars from Sean O'Casey, Romeo and Juliet for the Junior cert) and a certain number of poems... mainly Irish poets: Yeats, Kavanagh, etc. and some other ones.

all i'm saying is if i had to read joyce - i would have quit school ...

Heineken Helen

polaris wrote:

all i'm saying is if i had to read joyce - i would have quit school ...

Jesus, they wouldn't force that on ANYBODY :eek:

Maybe they read it to Saddam in prison or something!

lucylespian

Heineken Helen wrote:

Apology accepted, but please let it be a lesson to ya and try to refrain from jumping into threads without reading them and taking things out of context. It’s like just reading the liner notes and not the whole book, eh? Also, ‘you’re out of your mind’ isn’t really a great counter argument No offence taken though.

Also I never said films were as good as books! I like films, I like books… I haven’t read every book of every film I have ever seen though so I cannot say that outright books are better than their films.

Hey, I didn't actually say "you are outa your mind", that was soneone else. I think I agreed with FPC on his "for fucks sake" from memory. This thread is ten pages, one of many, so your patronising reply is kinda outa order. Let it be a lesson to you !!

ON the subject of classics, the problem is some of them are shite. Mockingbird is great, not familiar wioth Northanger Abbey, but I don't know the clebreated Nobel Prize winning Australian author PAtrick White wrote some of teh most turgid boring rubbish ever. I was unable to force myself to read more than a few chapters. I don't know anyone else who has done better, despite knowing many erudite literary well educated folk.
I think they gave him teh prize out of pure snobbery, using complete unreadability as the standard of excellence.
I have ploughed through some DH Lawrence, but jeez it was hard going, and I only did it cos I figured reading some classics was a good thing. Only pride kept me going, the stories were hardly enthralling.
On the other hand, a guy like Nevil Shute wrote brilliant naratives that draw you in and glue you to teh page while giving you goosebumps and tears over teh simplest things.
If you are interested, have a look at "Round the Bend" and "The Rainbow and the Rose". They are not huge books, and musty old stores are usually loaded wiht them. He is better known for "A Town LIke Alice", but it is not his best. I think they made a movie of "Pied Piper", but I nearly always shun movies if I have read the book.

lucylespian

Heineken Helen wrote:

Huh? :eek: Do you make them just sit there and read it? Isn't it best to get them to take turns reading it out loud and then analysing each part?

I remember when we did Wuthering Heights... I literally knew the entire book off by heart by the time I sat the exam. I could still quote quite a bit of it now.

Making boys, especially who are poor readers, read out loud in class is precisely what teaches tehm to detest reading. I doubt if this happens much in moderen schools, I sure hope it doesn't.
The trick to getting boys to read is to choose a book which appeals to them.
I have done this a few times. At teh end of "YOU've Got MAil" remember how the Meg Ryan character gets offered a job as childrens book editor of the big chain that put her out of business.

That beautifully illustrates teh point that librarians, esp in primary schools, should be there to care for teh readers, not teh books. The idea that the physical book is more importatn than the reader is entreanched and unhelpful.
The school librarian's main job should be to match books to kids, and let the paper care for itself.

elmer

I hated the reading-out-loud classes at school, they favour the non-readers,or at least they detracted from me from digesting the book.

some are just never gonna enjoy reading and I dont think anything will a make much difference, like you cant make a kid enjoy sports if.......

Heineken Helen

lucylespian wrote:

Making boys, especially who are poor readers, read out loud in class is precisely what teaches tehm to detest reading. I doubt if this happens much in moderen schools, I sure hope it doesn't.
The trick to getting boys to read is to choose a book which appeals to them.

I'm not saying people would have a gun to their head and be reading with tears streaming down their faces begging the teacher to let them stop . It didn't go from person to person, she'd pick random people and usually the kinda people who used to like reading. If someone obviously didn't like standing up and reading a chapter, she never used to force it.

elmer

Heineken Helen wrote:

people would have a gun to their head and be reading with tears streaming down their faces begging the teacher to let them stop

what a sadist!