Books

Heineken Helen

Byrnzie wrote:

Watching a film requires NO effort whatsoever. Reading a book forces you to engage your concentration and apply your imagination into transforming the words on the page into images and ideas, and connections in your head. And you will not get pretty much the same story from watching a film. You will get someone else's interpretation of a book from a film - an interpretation that will always only ever skim the surface of the depths of a book. There are also some books which are nigh on impossible to film.

Couple of good points there although I will argue that a BOOK is also only the authors interpretation... if we're talking non-fiction.

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

Couple of good points there although I will argue that a BOOK is also only the authors interpretation... if we're talking non-fiction.

and thats why you always read more than one book on a given subject helen. that way you can form your own opinion based on what you read. and even do your own research if you feel so inclined.

Heineken Helen

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

There's more life in a book than there is in a pub full of wankers.

Did I mention the pub? And if you think a pub is just a place 'full of wankers' then we're not on the same page anyway (no pun intended).

I'm just putting out another point of view there... I have read, it's not like I don't know what's IN a book or what it has to offer.

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

Oh I'm with you cate!! I can't even begin to understand poetry unless I read it aloud. And as for scripts, or plays, I'm lost if I can't have a read through.
We had so much poetry recited around the house as kids, I've always loved to hear it spoken, as much as singing. Lots of recitation went on.
And I think that's why I do ok with reading aloud. That and the fact that Mum always read to us. And the Grannies of course. And I've been reading myself since I was quite small. Used to snuggle up in the corner of the couch in the little sunshine spot and read books and eat apples. Was just dreamy. Listening to people struggle to read aloud or deliver lines is as excrutiating to me sometimes as nails on a chalkboard!! :eek: And I feel sad for people not having that skill. Maybe it's the Irish ancestry in us cate. We love the verbal storytelling.

That's a good point... I just love communicating with people. And maybe it IS an Irish thing that we can't shut the fuck up, lol.

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

and thats why you always read more than one book on a given subject helen. that way you can form your own opinion based on what you read. and even do your own research if you feel so inclined.

Or depending on the subject, you can go out there and study it yourself rather than read a load of conflicting descriptions

Scubascott

A couple of books that everyone on this forum should read -

'Tiger Force' by Michael Sallah and Mitch Weiss. About some really fucked up stuff that american soldiers did in Vietnam, and investigation that was covered up by the military.

'The places in between' by Rory Stewart. About a dude who walked across Afganistan just weeks after the american invasion.

catefrances

Scubascott wrote:

'The places in between' by Rory Stewart. About a dude who walked across Afganistan just weeks after the american invasion.

i'm adding this one to my already long list. i'm currently reading a history of conflict in afghanistan(along with others).

Scubascott

Another one:

'The Blind Watchmaker' by Richard Dawkins, a defense of Darwinism, including good layman's explanations of the concepts of evolution by natural selection.

More if I think of them later. Need to read some more of Tim Flannery's stuff. I've read his book about his adventures in New Guinea, and it was really interesting stuff.

lucylespian

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

For fuck's sake.

Every once in while, there is a perfect post that sums everything up perfectly. Tihs is one.

Perfect punk even !! LOL !!!
Now get on board with me wanting to publish the PJ songs for exactly teh same reason.
Actually, I've given up on that, I don't care any more.

Byrnzie

Byrnzie wrote:

As for being 'a words person'...hmm, not really. I hated 'The Royal Tenenbaums', and I didn't like 'Pulp Fiction' either. Too wordy. I prefer films like 'Dead Man', or 'Ivans XTC', or 'The Proposition', or like 'Lust for life'. Long silences are my thing. People talk too much.
I still think my favourite scene from any film is the part in 'The Deer Hunter' where De Niro returns to his home town and tells the cab driver to drive past his house where the welcome home party is going on. He goes to a motel room and just sits on the edge of the bed with his head in his hands. That scene speaks more than any dialogue I've ever heard.
A similar thing in 'Cool hand Luke' where Paul Newman hears that his Mother's died. No words are spoken. He just returns to the prison dorm and sits on his bed and plays his guitar. Beautiful. That scene alone kicks a million dialogues into the kerb.

Byrnzie, you should have used the film 'The Straight Story' to emphasize your point regarding silences. You big klutz! That film epitomizes the power and beauty of silences better than any other. You fucking bozo! :rolleyes:


Edit: I wonder if you can get banned from the message board for verbally abusing yourself?

Jeanie

Byrnzie wrote:

Edit: I wonder if you can get banned from the message board for verbally abusing yourself?

gue hasn't. so I can't see why you would.

Heineken Helen

lucylespian wrote:

Every once in while, there is a perfect post that sums everything up perfectly. Tihs is one.

Perfect punk even !! LOL !!!
Now get on board with me wanting to publish the PJ songs for exactly teh same reason.
Actually, I've given up on that, I don't care any more.

Ah well, I can see my opinion isn’t a proper one… what ya gonna do?

When did I say reading’s BAD? All I’m doing is providing an argument to counter the point that less books somehow equates the end of the world. Not EVERYONE’S into reading and those who ARE aren’t gonna stop cos books are less popular. That’s the only point I’m trying to make. I asked the importance of books, somebody said the imagery, I said you can get better imagery in an actual IMAGE. Somebody else said books are more factual than other forms of media… also not necessarily true, you’re still at the mercy of the author. So what have I said wrong?

Byrnzie

Heineken Helen wrote:

So what have I said wrong?

Everything!

Heineken Helen

Byrnzie wrote:

Everything!

Ah well that clears it up then

elmer

Heineken Helen wrote:

Books are too slow for todays world... it takes a few days (or weeks or months) to read a book... but only a couple of hours to watch a film and get pretty much the same story.

your out of your mind

I think cos my formative years were spent reading books I cannot 'get pretty much the same story' and have never been able to. In a good novel I am consumed but with a film I may pick holes, can be the same with music.


pisses me off when books are seen as something feminine to do also

Heineken Helen

elmer wrote:

your out of your mind

I think cos my formative years were spent reading books I cannot 'get pretty much the same story' and have never been able to. In a good novel I am consumed but with a film I may pick holes, can be the same with music.


pisses me off when books are seen as something feminine to do also

How am I out of my mind? That wasn't how I see books... that was my explanation for why books may not be so popular today as they were! Can you think of a better reason?

I never knew they were a feminine thing either.

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

How am I out of my mind? That wasn't how I see books... that was my explanation for why books may not be so popular today as they were! Can you think of a better reason?

I never knew they were a feminine thing either.

Books are too slow for todays world... it takes a few days (or weeks or months) to read a book... but only a couple of hours to watch a film and get pretty much the same story.

helen,
when you make statements like this and dont distance yourself from them, people think they are your thoughts. perhaps next time you should specify that they are a general observation and not your personal opinion and you wont get jumped on.
oh and i agree totally with you. unfortunately people who have the opinion that the movie is just as good miss out cause quite often the movie is no where near as good as the book and quite often they have the ending changed which fucks with the story.
you cant imagine how angry i was with hollywood after id read mary shelley's frankenstein and discovered who the real monster was.

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

helen,
when you make statements like this and dont distance yourself from them, people think they are your thoughts. perhaps next time you should specify that they are a general observation and not your personal opinion and you wont get jumped on.
oh and i agree totally with you. unfortunately people who have the opinion that the movie is just as good miss out cause quite often the movie is no where near as good as the book and quite often they have the ending changed which fucks with the story.
you cant imagine how angry i was with hollywood after id read mary shelley's frankenstein and discovered who the real monster was.

Well the question was asked and I answered it. I said 'books are too slow for todays world', I didn't say they're too slow for MY world... I try to avoid this 'fast world' anyway and most who know me here would probably know that.

Anyway all the answers I got were 'for fucks sake' and 'your out of your mind'. Hardly very constructive replies... I can't even put forward a reply to the questions asked and just get shot down. I've said several times here that my only problem with books is that I can't put them down. I thought this thread was trying to discover why they may be becoming less and less popular but I wasn't aware that we couldn't give suggestions as to why.

Anyway, this wasn't really directed towards you Cate

I agree with you on Frankenstein :( .

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

Well the question was asked and I answered it. I said 'books are too slow for todays world', I didn't say they're too slow for MY world... I try to avoid this 'fast world' anyway and most who know me here would probably know that.

Anyway all the answers I got were 'for fucks sake' and 'your out of your mind'. Hardly very constructive replies... I can't even put forward a reply to the questions asked and just get shot down. I've said several times here that my only problem with books is that I can't put them down. I thought this thread was trying to discover why they may be becoming less and less popular but I wasn't aware that we couldn't give suggestions as to why.

Anyway, this wasn't really directed towards you Cate

I agree with you on Frankenstein :( .

helen,
when you're dealing with guys, quite often their first instinct is to lash out and punch. reason is low in their vocabulary.

nuffingman

Heineken Helen wrote:

Books are too slow for todays world... it takes a few days (or weeks or months) to read a book... but only a couple of hours to watch a film and get pretty much the same story.

Helen, you're a bad girl . I've never yet seen a film that's better than the book. If there are any can someone let me know?

Unfortunately books seem to be less relevant. Out of 3 daughters and 2 step daughters only one of them reads. In our dumbing down society in England you don't even have to read a book to pass an English Lit exam. My youngest has had to read "To kill a Mockingbird" for her GCSEs. She hasn't bothered to read it because the teachers hand out notes summarising the story. I couldn't believe this and checked with the others and they all said they didn't read the books for their exams either and their friends didn't either.

I'd read "To kill a Mockingbird" just for the enjoyment.

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

helen,
when you're dealing with guys, quite often their first instinct is to lash out and and punch. reason is low in their vocabulary.

I know... it's quite sad... and yet they give out to me for 'knocking books' when they're hardly a good advertisement for reading themselves

Lads, it shouldn't make a difference if what I'm saying is MY OWN personal opinion or if it's an observation on the state of the world. Either way, an opinion or an observation CANNOT be wrong IMO.

Heineken Helen

nuffingman wrote:

Helen, you're a bad girl . I've never yet seen a film that's better than the book. If there are any can someone let me know?

Unfortunately books seem to be less relevant. Out of 3 daughters and 2 step daughters only one of them reads. In our dumbing down society in England you don't even have to read a book to pass an English Lit exam. My youngest has had to read "To kill a Mockingbird" for her GCSEs. She hasn't bothered to read it because the teachers hand out notes summarising the story. I couldn't believe this and checked with the others and they all said they didn't read the books for their exams either and their friends didn't either.

I'd read "To kill a Mockingbird" just for the enjoyment.

Hang on... these are YOUR kids. You can't really simply blame the curriculum, you have a bit of a responsibility here too if you want your kids to read. And I never said films are BETTER than books... I said they take up less time (that's pretty much fact).

We did To Kill a Mockingbird too... but I don't remember if we had notes or not.

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

I know... it's quite sad... and yet they give out to me for 'knocking books' when they're hardly a good advertisement for reading themselves

Lads, it shouldn't make a difference if what I'm saying is MY OWN personal opinion or if it's an observation on the state of the world. Either way, an opinion or an observation CANNOT be wrong IMO.

perhaps. but pretty much is not the same story.
i have seen two movie versions of one of my favourite books, thomas harris' red dragon and neither of them have managed to capture the ending as the book did. and with a book where the modus operandi of the criminal was as integral to the story as this one was, it was a great disservice to the movie goer in my opinion.

Hitch-Hiker

nuffingman wrote:

Helen, you're a bad girl . I've never yet seen a film that's better than the book. If there are any can someone let me know?

Fight Club. I hated the book and loved the film. But that's the exception.
Can't believe that about your daughter. I read To Kill a Mockingbird for my Junior Cert (Irish equivalent of gcse's). we read it in class all the way through. I made a point to read it before we started in class though because my teacher was crap and ruined it (to an extent).For my Leaving Cert (A levels) I read Wuthering Heights. Again, we read it IN CLASS with the teacher.
It's a sorry state of affairs when students don't even read the book they're meant to be studying. They miss the whole point of the exercise then. At that stage they're regurgitating facts, and in this particular case they're missing out on an amazing piece of literature. Although it doesn't sound like the teacher is doing much to encourage reading, but that's a whole other debate.
I really do think it's a shame that the written word is taking such a back seat these days. Most peopl in their teens would be happier watching Big Brother than reading a book. Given enough time and inaction this will just lead to an idiot nation where the extent of peoples reading will be the Sun. I'm exaggerating here, but you see what I'm getting at.

catefrances

Hitch-Hiker wrote:

Fight Club. I hated the book and loved the film. But that's the exception.
Can't believe that about your daughter. I read To Kill a Mockingbird for my Junior Cert (Irish equivalent of gcse's). we read it in class all the way through. I made a point to read it before we started in class though because my teacher was crap and ruined it (to an extent).For my Leaving Cert (A levels) I read Wuthering Heights. Again, we read it IN CLASS with the teacher.
It's a sorry state of affairs when students don't even read the book they're meant to be studying. They miss the whole point of the exercise then. At that stage they're regurgitating facts, and in this particular case they're missing out on an amazing piece of literature. Although it doesn't sound like the teacher is doing much to encourage reading, but that's a whole other debate.
I really do think it's a shame that the written word is taking such a back seat these days. Most peopl in their teens would be happier watching Big Brother than reading a book. Given enough time and inaction this will just lead to an idiot nation where the extent of peoples reading will be the Sun. I'm exaggerating here, but you see what I'm getting at.

and that is why you get them young. my children have seen me read since the day they were born. our house is full of books. i am more than happy to buy them any book they ask for. and it thrills me no end that my son, who isnt the world's greatest reader gets excited when we are in a book store. he tends towards the non fiction. and that is okay with me.

nuffingman

Hitch-Hiker wrote:

Fight Club. I hated the book and loved the film. But that's the exception.
Can't believe that about your daughter. I read To Kill a Mockingbird for my Junior Cert (Irish equivalent of gcse's). we read it in class all the way through. I made a point to read it before we started in class though because my teacher was crap and ruined it (to an extent).For my Leaving Cert (A levels) I read Wuthering Heights. Again, we read it IN CLASS with the teacher.
It's a sorry state of affairs when students don't even read the book they're meant to be studying. They miss the whole point of the exercise then. At that stage they're regurgitating facts, and in this particular case they're missing out on an amazing piece of literature. Although it doesn't sound like the teacher is doing much to encourage reading, but that's a whole other debate.
I really do think it's a shame that the written word is taking such a back seat these days. Most peopl in their teens would be happier watching Big Brother than reading a book. Given enough time and inaction this will just lead to an idiot nation where the extent of peoples reading will be the Sun. I'm exaggerating here, but you see what I'm getting at.

Never read or seen Fight Club. I'll have to try and do both.
As for the rest of your post I can add nothing except agree completely.

Heineken Helen

I did wuthering heights too for my leaving cert HH I fucking LOVE that book, one of my favourites. It goes without saying that it makes more sense to read a book, rather than notes relating to the book :( good points.

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

I did wuthering heights too for my leaving cert HH I fucking LOVE that book, one of my favourites. It goes without saying that it makes more sense to read a book, rather than notes relating to the book :( good points.

i avoided reading wuthering heights for many many years. i dismissed it as a girlie book. the only reason i did read it was because my eldest daughter was doing it for her final year. and i have to say i was so thrilled with it. it was not at all what i expected.

nuffingman

Heineken Helen wrote:

Hang on... these are YOUR kids. You can't really simply blame the curriculum, you have a bit of a responsibility here too if you want your kids to read. And I never said films are BETTER than books... I said they take up less time (that's pretty much fact).

We did To Kill a Mockingbird too... but I don't remember if we had notes or not.

Ah, so it's not necessarily the curriculum's fault, it's possibly mine! You try asking a child to read if thay don't want to. What would happen if the teacher's didn't hand out notes? Answer, the kids would have to read the books.

I had to read Northanger Abbey when I was at school, hated it but had no choice but read it about 4 times. I've hated Jane Austen ever since.

Edit: We also live in a house with hundreds of books and they never see me without one. Seem to be more interested in effing MSN and other mind numbing exploits.

catefrances

nuffingman wrote:

Ah, so it's not necessarily the curriculum's fault, it's possibly mine! You try asking a child to read if thay don't want to. What would happen if the teacher's didn't hand out notes? Answer, the kids would have to read the books.

I had to read Northanger Abbey when I was at school, hated it but had no choice but read it about 4 times. I've hated Jane Austen ever since.

aaahh the so called classics.

there is nothing worse than being in a class discussing a book and realising that at least half the class have not read the book. i often wonder why they bother to come to class if they can not contribute. at uni i have had to read several books that in my everyday life i would not have picked up. jane eyre, women in love, madam bovary for example.
i think it would be better practice to have the students who have not read the book, write a cohesive argument as to why they felt they couldn't read the book. what was it about the book they found offensive or difficult to grasp and not accept a shrug of the shoulders of students who are just plain lazy. or in a perfect world, give an alternate reading.