Hate crimes??

jeffbr

Cosmo wrote:

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I would like to hear some points by the 'Hate Crime' detractors in defense these defendants (along with the defendants families) as to why these racially motivated beatings should not be treated as hate crimes to add greater punishment to these defendants.

The shitbags committed crimes. Try them for those crimes. If they were in a pack conspiring to do something illegal bring them up on federal RICO charges, too. There are already laws to take care of nailing these assholes without having the nebulous "hate" tag attached.

Cosmo

jeffbr wrote:

The shitbags committed crimes. Try them for those crimes. If they were in a pack conspiring to do something illegal bring them up on federal RICO charges, too. There are already laws to take care of nailing these assholes without having the nebulous "hate" tag attached.

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The justification for these attacks... based purely on race. So, simple assault charges should be filed and nothing further. The Hate Crime statute adds to the penalty these defendants will have to face... in my opinion... GOOD. Throw the book... AND THEN SOME... at these assholes.
Otherwise, it's sort of saying it wasn't that big of a deal for these kids to beat the crap out of their girls simply because they were white.

NMyTree

Hey, no black people were harmed, injured or humilated during this incident; so what's all the fuss about?

Cosmo

"The 10 minors - nine girls and one boy aged 12 to 17 - are charged with three felony counts of assault with the intent to cause great bodily injury. A hate-crime enhancement was leveled against eight of the 10.
In addition to the 10, two 17-year-old Long Beach boys arrested several days after the incident have been charged with the same three felony counts and the hate-crime enhancement. They are pending adjudication.
All the youths have been in custody, scattered among the county's three juvenile halls, since their arrests.
The hate-crime enhancement stems from witness and victim accounts that many in the group yelled racial slurs as they attacked the three victims.
The 18-year-old witness testified Monday that she heard one male yell out, "Fuck white people," before the three victims were attacked by a crowd of about 30 people.
All the victims suffered bruises and scrapes. Two victims had concussions and one suffered a dozen fractures on one side of her face - injuries that could permanently damage her eyesight. "
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Oh well... kids will be kids. There is no reason to charge them with Hate Crimes (which, under law, denys them being released from custody and lets them return to their homes during the trial).

Lizard

don't all crimes involve some sort of hate??

CorporateWhore

Cosmo wrote:

"The 10 minors - nine girls and one boy aged 12 to 17 - are charged with three felony counts of assault with the intent to cause great bodily injury. A hate-crime enhancement was leveled against eight of the 10.
In addition to the 10, two 17-year-old Long Beach boys arrested several days after the incident have been charged with the same three felony counts and the hate-crime enhancement. They are pending adjudication.
All the youths have been in custody, scattered among the county's three juvenile halls, since their arrests.
The hate-crime enhancement stems from witness and victim accounts that many in the group yelled racial slurs as they attacked the three victims.
The 18-year-old witness testified Monday that she heard one male yell out, "Fuck white people," before the three victims were attacked by a crowd of about 30 people.
All the victims suffered bruises and scrapes. Two victims had concussions and one suffered a dozen fractures on one side of her face - injuries that could permanently damage her eyesight. "
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Oh well... kids will be kids. There is no reason to charge them with Hate Crimes (which, under law, denys them being released from custody and lets them return to their homes during the trial).

It doesn't matter what scenario you toss out. How do you know what someone is feeling and thinking about another race when they commit a crime? Hate is an emotion.

How do you convict someone of having an emotion while they committed a crime? I say, make the penalties for all assaults harsher.

This is a slippery slope: what types of hate crimes could we be convicted of in the future? What if I perform an act of civil disobedience in front of an abortion clinic, but I don't just get charged with trespassing etc, I get charged with a hate crime as well? Hating women. How do you know I hate women? Did I say "fuck you whore!" to a woman walking in the clinic? Does that mean I hate women?

The simple fact that someone hates another person's race, religion, or gender while they commit a crime does not mean they should receive a harsher penalty.

Also, this idea of tacking on extra punishment sounds good to some, but we're not the ones being sentenced for having illicit thoughts. Extra punishment is not necessary all the time, folks.

Cosmo

Lizard wrote:

don't all crimes involve some sort of hate??

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Armed robbery? Bank robbery? Auto theft? Home burgulary? Are those crimes?

Lizard

Cosmo wrote:

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Armed robbery? Bank robbery? Auto theft? Home burgulary? Are those crimes?

it involves hate to your fellow man!!!

Cosmo

CorporateWhore wrote:

It doesn't matter what scenario you toss out. How do you know what someone is feeling and thinking about another race when they commit a crime? Hate is an emotion.

How do you convict someone of having an emotion while they committed a crime? I say, make the penalties for all assaults harsher.

This is a slippery slope: what types of hate crimes could we be convicted of in the future? What if I perform an act of civil disobedience in front of an abortion clinic, but I don't just get charged with trespassing etc, I get charged with a hate crime as well? Hating women. How do you know I hate women? Did I say "fuck you whore!" to a woman walking in the clinic? Does that mean I hate women?

The simple fact that someone hates another person's race, religion, or gender while they commit a crime does not mean they should receive a harsher penalty.

Also, this idea of tacking on extra punishment sounds good to some, but we're not the ones being sentenced for having illicit thoughts. Extra punishment is not necessary all the time, folks.

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Then, the punishment fits the crime? These kids should be treated the same if the victims were black... in which case, there would not be any crime because these women were targeted simply for being white. They should be released to the custody of their parents and not held in jail because the Hate Crime tag does not allow for this option... that's okay? Or should ALL assault defendants be remanded and not be released... like the guys that get in bar fights?
I am FOR Hate Crimes... I believe Terrorists commit Hate Crimes and I think they should NOT be allowed out on bail if they are hauled in on weapons charges or illegal possession of explosives.
Just as I think these fucking kids should not be released to the custody of their parents who don't think they did anything that bad.
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I guess that is where you and I disagree.

Cosmo

Lizard wrote:

it involves hate to your fellow man!!!

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Auto theft??? Hate for your fellow man??? Or... just wanting parts for your own car, but you don't have the money to buy the stereo and shiney wheels.

CorporateWhore

Cosmo wrote:

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Then, the punishment fits the crime? These kids should be treated the same if the victims were black... in which case, there would not be any crime because these women were targeted simply for being white. They should be released to the custody of their parents and not held in jail because the Hate Crime tag does not allow for this option... that's okay? Or should ALL assault defendants be remanded and not be released... like the guys that get in bar fights?
I am FOR Hate Crimes... I believe Terrorists commit Hate Crimes and I think they should NOT be allowed out on bail if they are hauled in on weapons charges or illegal possession of explosives.
Just as I think these fucking kids should not be released to the custody of their parents who don't think they did anything that bad.
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I guess that is where you and I disagree.

What's wrong with putting the guys who get in bar fights in jail for a little while? I never get in bar fights for a reason.

I think your "tough" stance on crime is really just a tough stance of certain types of thought that you disagree with. Why not just have harsher laws in general?

Lizard

Cosmo wrote:

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Auto theft??? Hate for your fellow man??? Or... just wanting parts for your own car, but you don't have the money to buy the stereo and shiney wheels.

Could be hatin' cuz they don't have it. = not completely serious here.!

NMyTree

If this whole 'Hate Crime" thing is utilized no matter the color/race of the attackers, then I'm fine with it. It has to be used equally for black-on-white attacks, white-on-black attacks, white-on-hispanic attacks, hispanic-on-white attacks..... and any other combo you can dream up.

Otherwise, do away with it.

Cosmo

CorporateWhore wrote:

What's wrong with putting the guys who get in bar fights in jail for a little while? I never get in bar fights for a reason.

I think your "tough" stance on crime is really just a tough stance of certain types of thought that you disagree with. Why not just have harsher laws in general?

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So, I still don't get it... Kids gang up on white girls because they are white and two drunk guys get in a fight at a bar are basically the same thing? They should all be tossed in jail until their trials are over?
A guy with an unlicensed weapon, gun powder and a map of the Los Angeles area should be treated the same as a guy with weapons and gun powder and all kinds of Islamic Fundamentalist Bin Laden crap found in his place?
Both should be held without bail until their trial is over? Or all should be released back into our communities after making bail?
I don't see a problem with catagorizing criminals and making assessments on them depending upon their risk to our community. I don't mind the two drunken fight guys out there as much as the gang kids that bashed in the girls's heads and the fucking Islamic fuck with the guns and explosives. I don't want the latter two out there in the malls.

rebornFixer

Saturnal wrote:

The laws make sense, and so do the results.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004885.html

Your stats are compelling, but you still haven't convinced me that the laws "make sense".

lalalalaaaaaaaa

reborncareerist wrote:

Your stats are compelling, but you still haven't convinced me that the laws "make sense".

I really don't want to go through all of this again because it's all in the previous thread about hate crimes. I posted a lot in that thread.

rebornFixer

Saturnal wrote:

I really don't want to go through all of this again because it's all in the previous thread about hate crimes. I posted a lot in that thread.

Agreed.

Staceb10

jeffbr wrote:

The shitbags committed crimes. Try them for those crimes. If they were in a pack conspiring to do something illegal bring them up on federal RICO charges, too. There are already laws to take care of nailing these assholes without having the nebulous "hate" tag attached.

That's how I feel too. The problem that I can see with "hate" crimes is that its too easy to pin that label on something. And are we punishing people because of their motives? If I go out and beat someone to death my motives shouldn't be the deciding factor on punishment. The fact that I beat someone to death in and of itself is a heinous of crime and should receive a harsher penalty.

Cosmo

Staceb10 wrote:

That's how I feel too. The problem that I can see with "hate" crimes is that its too easy to pin that label on something. And are we punishing people because of their motives? If I go out and beat someone to death my motives shouldn't be the deciding factor on punishment. The fact that I beat someone to death in and of itself is a heinous of crime and should receive a harsher penalty.

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Beating to death is something altogether different and capital crime attachments already address those differences.
Example:
Your kid beats up some guy that grabs his girlfriend's ass.
Someone beats up your kid because he is white.
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The beatings end up with similar results... not resulting in deaths, but bloodied faces and non-life threatening bone fractures.
Both should carry the same penalty? Should your kid be remanded for beating up the guy... or should the guy that beat up your son be questioned and released?
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My take... if there's some asshole out there beating up people simply because they are white... I want the fucker off the street.

miller8966

Cosmo wrote:

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My take... if there's some asshole out there beating up people simply because they are white... I want the fucker off the street.

I strongly agree.