Police don't have to knock, justices say

2

Comments

  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,684
    know1 wrote:
    They've already gone to the trouble of getting a judge to sign a warrant, so are a simple knock and the extra 10 seconds really that important?
    You can hide an a lot of guns and drugs in 10 seconds.....
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    El_Kabong wrote:


    yeah, let's make it legal for them to do this....that way they don't have to bother with the cover ups and tearing down the walls and all that trouble...great idea.
    There's plenty for all.

    You can either repeat conventional platitudes or else sound like you're from Neptune. -chomsky


    The weight of the world don't seem so bad...


    I love you Cate. always will.
  • miller8966miller8966 Posts: 1,452
    Commy wrote:
    yeah, let's make it legal for them to do this....that way they don't have to bother with the cover ups and tearing down the walls and all that trouble...great idea.

    Yes because cover ups happen on a daily basis.
    America...the greatest Country in the world.
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    miller8966 wrote:
    Yes because cover ups happen on a daily basis.
    It just takes one abuse of power...why even give them the oportunity to do something like this...

    When the shit goes down in the United States..and it will go down-the people will take their country back-they will have all the cards...they have lists of all the dissidents-thanks to the illegal witretapping-they have all the names-and they now have the means to take those people out..making it extremely difiicult to bring democracy to this country.

    There is a reason the founding fathers-granted not the most desirable fellows-put in place all those checks against the authority-now they are being stripped away...and when the shit goes down the authorities will know just who to take out first.

    But it won't matter...we will take the power back.

    -on a side note-if a police chief decides he doesn't like you and your family you could ge tthe same treatement as the panthers did in the 80's...a bullet in the head. no questions asked.
    There's plenty for all.

    You can either repeat conventional platitudes or else sound like you're from Neptune. -chomsky


    The weight of the world don't seem so bad...


    I love you Cate. always will.
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    miller8966 wrote:
    Yes because cover ups happen on a daily basis.


    does it need to happen on a daily basis for it to be a bad call? how many drugs or weapons can one hide in under 10 seconds?? that would only be 1 flush from the toilet, if that, and even w/ that they'd have to have the drugs already out.
    standin above the crowd
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    someone who seemed to feel the same
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  • moeaholicmoeaholic Posts: 536
    El_Kabong wrote:
    does it need to happen on a daily basis for it to be a bad call? how many drugs or weapons can one hide in under 10 seconds?? that would only be 1 flush from the toilet, if that, and even w/ that they'd have to have the drugs already out.

    or they could wedge a pipe between the door and the floor to give themselves more than 10 seconds. besides, haven't you ever watched goodfellas? she flushed a huge amount of coke and also hid a gun in her panties while they were still banging on the door.
    "PC Load Letter?! What the fuck does that mean?"
    ~Michael Bolton
  • MLC2006MLC2006 Posts: 861
    El_Kabong wrote:
    does it need to happen on a daily basis for it to be a bad call? how many drugs or weapons can one hide in under 10 seconds?? that would only be 1 flush from the toilet, if that, and even w/ that they'd have to have the drugs already out.

    I couldn't care about how much drugs are flushed in 10 seconds. but one can arm themself with a semi-auto in well under 10 seconds.
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    MLC2006 wrote:
    I couldn't care about how much drugs are flushed in 10 seconds. but one can arm themself with a semi-auto in well under 10 seconds.
    nevermind the peaceful people that are willing to cooperate with the authorities...fuck, break down their doors, scare the shit out of their children...great procedure
    There's plenty for all.

    You can either repeat conventional platitudes or else sound like you're from Neptune. -chomsky


    The weight of the world don't seem so bad...


    I love you Cate. always will.
  • MLC2006MLC2006 Posts: 861
    Commy wrote:
    nevermind the peaceful people that are willing to cooperate with the authorities...fuck, break down their doors, scare the shit out of their children...great procedure

    yeah, because when warrants are served, it is usually in a nice house where the family is sitting around singing Barney songs and eating Christmas turkey.
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    Commy wrote:
    nevermind the peaceful people that are willing to cooperate with the authorities...fuck, break down their doors, scare the shit out of their children...great procedure

    again, do you honestly think the cops are now going to ram down every door in every circumstance and not knock in every circumstance?
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • chopitdown wrote:
    again, do you honestly think the cops are now going to ram down every door in every circumstance and not knock in every circumstance?

    where is the line where they will or won't knock?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • where is the line where they will or won't knock?

    Wow...kudos for the good question Abook. Most seriously.
  • Wow...kudos for the good question Abook. Most seriously.

    I try. :)

    You say that as if it was the only good thing I've ever asked/said on this board. :p lol
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    where is the line where they will or won't knock?
    Professional judgement. Much in the same way I'm sure much of your job depends on your professional judgement. Much like police don't pull over every speeder, they use professional judgement.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • surferdude wrote:
    Professional judgement. Much in the same way I'm sure much of your job depends on your professional judgement. Much like police don't pull over every speeder, they use professional judgement.

    so which are the ones they should pull over?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • surferdude wrote:
    Professional judgement. Much in the same way I'm sure much of your job depends on your professional judgement. Much like police don't pull over every speeder, they use professional judgement.

    You're comfortable arming someone on behalf of society and then giving them "professional judgement"? Seems like the gun in their hand already contradicts the first part of that term.
  • miller8966miller8966 Posts: 1,452
    You're comfortable arming someone on behalf of society and then giving them "professional judgement"? Seems like the gun in their hand already contradicts the first part of that term.

    I have no problem with giving people especially law abiding citizens guns
    America...the greatest Country in the world.
  • miller8966 wrote:
    I have no problem with giving people especially law abiding citizens guns

    And do you agree with the professional judgement comment?
  • MLC2006MLC2006 Posts: 861
    And do you agree with the professional judgement comment?

    yes. it is unlikely that police are going to use this judgement to kick in a door to serve a trespassing or forgery warrant. or a bag of marijuana. or pissing in public. but when someone has a warrant for trafficking hard drugs (these are usually the ones with guns) or someone with a long and violent history, I'm all for the 'professional judgement' that calls for kicking the door in without knocking.
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    where is the line where they will or won't knock?

    do they ram every door down now? why would they start doing that now. The last things cops need is to put even more questions in peoples mind and have people more suspect of them than they already are. They will ram down the wrong doors a few times and there would be such a public outcry for busting down the door's of people every time. And as i saw surferdude answer...they are professionals and they are allowed judgement.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    MLC2006 wrote:
    yes. it is unlikely that police are going to use this judgement to kick in a door to serve a trespassing or forgery warrant. or a bag of marijuana. or pissing in public. but when someone has a warrant for trafficking hard drugs (these are usually the ones with guns) or someone with a long and violent history, I'm all for the 'professional judgement' that calls for kicking the door in without knocking.

    well said.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • MLC2006 wrote:
    yes. it is unlikely that police are going to use this judgement to kick in a door to serve a trespassing or forgery warrant. or a bag of marijuana. or pissing in public.

    Why not? You've completely sanctioned the behavior if you simply think it's is a matter of "professional judgement". If your entire belief rests on a hope that this won't be used in those situation, I suspect you'll end up being disappointed.
    but when someone has a warrant for trafficking hard drugs (these are usually the ones with guns) or someone with a long and violent history, I'm all for the 'professional judgement' that calls for kicking the door in without knocking.

    Ok. Would you therefore be willing to codify that, rather than making it a matter of "professional judgement"? Otherwise you're just setting up a contradiction in the statment above by basically saying:

    "I'm all for professional judgement if that judgement matches my own standards" -- that doesn't make much sense.
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    "I'm all for professional judgement if that judgement matches my own standards" -- that doesn't make much sense.

    I'm all for professional judgement if that judgement is from people who are more trained than I, more knowledgeable than I and more experiened than I, and are legally allowed to make those decisions. That's why it's PROFESSIONAL judgement and not the avg publics judgement.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • chopitdown wrote:
    I'm all for professional judgement if that judgement is from people who are more trained than I, more knowledgeable than I and more experiened than I, and are legally allowed to make those decisions. That's why it's PROFESSIONAL judgement and not the avg publics judgement.

    I'm all for professional judgement too...for professionals who earn their money based on mutual exchange.

    I'm not all for professional judgement for a man whose job it is to potentially hold a gun in my face (or your face) supposedly based on our own interests.

    You all seem to be advocating two conflicting interests here: the law, and professional judgment. You can't have both.
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    I'm all for professional judgement too...for professionals who earn their money based on mutual exchange.

    I'm not all for professional judgement for a man whose job it is to potentially hold a gun in my face (or your face) supposedly based on our own interests.

    You all seem to be advocating two conflicting interests here: the law, and professional judgment. You can't have both.

    I'm sure some police will take this as open license to kick down every door; but i'm willing to bet that most aren't going to abuse this change in procedure.

    I am definitely for professional judgement for a man whose job allows tehm to possibly hold a gun in my face. That man also is allowed to make a professional judgement on whether or not simply ask me a question, talk with me to get more information and then he can determine (professional judgement) if he needs to make an arrest or if a warning is better off. I may have a different definition for professional judgement but police are professionals and they are allowed decisions b/c of that. It so happens their decisions can be life and death...but i'd venture to say that most of their decisions on the day to day things are far from pulling guns.

    The law and professional judgement always play together. Ask a doctor, lawyer, surveyor, architecht.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    You all seem to be advocating two conflicting interests here: the law, and professional judgment. You can't have both.
    Wrong. You can certainly apply professional judgement while upholding the law. Millions of professional people use professional judgement everyday in their professional life. They don't require a rulebook for how to go about every moment of their job. But they are held accountable for lapses in their professional judgement.

    Just because you give somebody the ability to use professional judgement does not mean they are not accountable for their actions.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • chopitdown wrote:
    I'm sure some police will take this as open license to kick down every door; but i'm willing to bet that most aren't going to abuse this change in procedure.

    Ok. Kicking down one door in error is enough for me.
    I am definitely for professional judgement for a man whose job allows tehm to possibly hold a gun in my face. That man also is allowed to make a professional judgement on whether or not simply ask me a question, talk with me to get more information and then he can determine (professional judgement) if he needs to make an arrest or if a warning is better off. I may have a different definition for professional judgement but police are professionals and they are allowed decisions b/c of that. It so happens their decisions can be life and death...but i'd venture to say that most of their decisions on the day to day things are far from pulling guns.

    If I'm going to pay for the gun, pay for the uniform, pay for the badge, pay for the man, I'll be damned if I'm going to allow his judgement to determine his rights to use them.
    The law and professional judgement always play together. Ask a doctor, lawyer, surveyor, architecht.

    But the difference is I can choose my doctor, my lawyer, my surveyor, my architect. I am not at the mercy of those professionals. We have not allowed doctors to hold a monopoly on medical knowledge. We have not allowed lawyers to hold a monopoly on the law. We have not allowed surveyors to hold a monopoly on where our property lines are drawn. We have not allowed architects to hold a monopoly on the laws of physics.

    We have allowed the police to hold a monopoly on force.
  • surferdude wrote:
    Wrong. You can certainly apply professional judgement while upholding the law. Millions of professional people use professional judgement everyday in their professional life. They don't require a rulebook for how to go about every moment of their job. But they are held accountable for lapses in their professional judgement.

    See above response on "millions of professional people".
    Just because you give somebody the ability to use professional judgement does not mean they are not accountable for their actions.

    On what grounds do you hold them accountable?
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    We have allowed the police to hold a monopoly on force.
    We have a military. We have several seperate law enforcement groups. Law enforcement groups all have oversight type committees. We have a constitution right to bear arms. The law does not stop you from using force.

    Police can use force to kick in a door. If they are found to have used poor professional judgement in doing so they will be held accountable for their actions. You can kick in the same door if you so desire and if you are found guilty of breaking a law you will be held accountable for your actions. The option to use force is there for us all to use. The accountability for using said force is there on any who use it.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    Ok. Kicking down one door in error is enough for me.].

    they are also human don't forget, i understand what you're saying but it's also not a reasonable expectation, imo...if they kick down the wrong door they are held accountable it's not like cops can do whatever they want and get away with it.

    If I'm going to pay for the gun, pay for the uniform, pay for the badge, pay for the man, I'll be damned if I'm going to allow his judgement to determine his rights to use them.

    You do every day. And everyday his judgement is used to not harm you unless you have given him reason.

    But the difference is I can choose my doctor, my lawyer, my surveyor, my architect. I am not at the mercy of those professionals. We have not allowed doctors to hold a monopoly on medical knowledge. We have not allowed lawyers to hold a monopoly on the law. We have not allowed surveyors to hold a monopoly on where our property lines are drawn. We have not allowed architects to hold a monopoly on the laws of physics.

    but we have allowed doctors (and other health care workers) to hold a monopoly on applying medical knowledge. WE have allowed lawyers to hold a monopoly on practicing law. The law allows professionals to act in a certain way, that's just how it is. The law restricts certain activities to certain people.
    We have allowed the police to hold a monopoly on force.

    that's right, the police also know that which is why they should take even greater precaution in executing their own professional judgment...if they excercise poor judgement they can lose that ability and privaledge to make those decisions. There is a series of checks and balances with all professions. Cops aren't immune from discipline.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
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