'US, Israel planned Middle East war'

DCGARDEN

robbie wrote:

the only loved one i lost on 9/11 is my civil liberties, and it was not the terrorists who are taking them away. and as for not following me, you said something about banging the drums and getting it on. how perverse is it for you to cheer on a war you are to afraid to take part in? you wanna bang the drums of war while it is other people fighting in that war. you have such a stiffy for bloodshed, strap on the gear and catch some bullets so my 7 year old son does not have to in 11 years. there are plenty of lives at risk that are in the military that want nothing to do with your war while you sit behind a keyboard and jerk off to the thought of it.

How you can pretend to know me or anyone else based on a few sentences on a Pearl Jam politcal forum is disturbing. You just used the words " cheer on a war you are afraid to take part in " dumb statement. Re-Think your position on that one. You know nothing about me. Your mind is obviously closed. I have no stiffy for bloodshed - but I do have a stiffy for this country. Whether you want to believe it or not, what attacked this country was not merely a tall man with a long beard. The roots are deeper than that.
I believe that our military should've been unleashed on the Middle East , yes.
War is not pretty, I have children about the age of the son you speak of, and understand all of the risks that go along with it. But, my personal view is that war is necessary at times. If you disagree with that, more power to you.
I would not judge your position or pretend to know what brought you to your conclusions. I would only ask that you extend the same courtesy -

yotan18

robbie wrote:

you better be writing this on your way back from the recruitment office.

bang... hit you DC garden.

if you were sent to the war, maybe you'd have a different take on the subject? all i see are so-called brave warriors, who can't even lead the battle and fight upfront with the troops.

Open

DCGARDEN wrote:

How you can pretend to know me or anyone else based on a few sentences on a Pearl Jam politcal forum is disturbing. You just used the words " cheer on a war you are afraid to take part in " dumb statement. Re-Think your position on that one. You know nothing about me. Your mind is obviously closed. I have no stiffy for bloodshed - but I do have a stiffy for this country. Whether you want to believe it or not, what attacked this country was not merely a tall man with a long beard. The roots are deeper than that.
I believe that our military should've been unleashed on the Middle East , yes.
War is not pretty, I have children about the age of the son you speak of, and understand all of the risks that go along with it. But, my personal view is that war is necessary at times. If you disagree with that, more power to you.
I would not judge your position or pretend to know what brought you to your conclusions. I would only ask that you extend the same courtesy -

Just because you love this country does it mean it can do no wrong? WHY are the roots deeper? All this bs you guys spew about "hating war, but its necessary" is a compete cop out..realize this...when you say war is necessary it means that we are more open to attack. There are extremist in the middle east who are saying exactly what you are about us. You and all the other warmongers go dig a hole and unleash yourselves on each other...leave the rest of us alone....

DCGARDEN

Open wrote:

Just because you love this country does it mean it can do no wrong? WHY are the roots deeper? All this bs you guys spew about "hating war, but its necessary" is a compete cop out..realize this...when you say war is necessary it means that we are more open to attack. There are extremist in the middle east who are saying exactly what you are about us. You and all the other warmongers go dig a hole and unleash yourselves on each other...leave the rest of us alone....

Of course I don't believe this country does no wrong. Why would you even suggest that. But I would take issue with ANYONE who tries to spew this
" We were to blame for 9/11 " attitude. I'm only expressing that I see things very differently. I have not insulted, I have not judged you or anyone else who disagrees.

If you don't think war was necessary after that day, then you and I are not only of different views, but we live on different planets.

Of course there are extremists who are saying things similar. Are you seriously
under the impression that they're only saying these things because of the war in Iraq? You've gotta be kidding me. That is what I meant when saying the roots are deeper. All of these terror plots that have been foiled recently, for example. You think they're happening because we invaded Sadamm Hussein. I sure don't. War was declared on this country by Bin Laden, quite some time ago. Since then, I've seen embassies exploded, Navy ships attacked, Trade centers bombed, and then of course that lovely day when innocent people on airplanes were f*cking killed and then those airplanes
were driven into places containing my fellow Americans. So don't talk to me
about how we're to blame, how we're the ones looking for war, how we've screwed things up in the world. I can't stomach that crap. Those fuckers picked the wrong country to " test " that day. Sorry, but I do believe what we've done since was necessary. But that's me.

RockinInCanada

DCGARDEN wrote:

Of course I don't believe this country does no wrong. Why would you even suggest that. But I would take issue with ANYONE who tries to spew this
" We were to blame for 9/11 " attitude. I'm only expressing that I see things very differently. I have not insulted, I have not judged you or anyone else who disagrees.

If you don't think war was necessary after that day, then you and I are not only of different views, but we live on different planets.

Of course there are extremists who are saying things similar. Are you seriously
under the impression that they're only saying these things because of the war in Iraq? You've gotta be kidding me. That is what I meant when saying the roots are deeper. All of these terror plots that have been foiled recently, for example. You think they're happening because we invaded Sadamm Hussein. I sure don't. War was declared on this country by Bin Laden, quite some time ago. Since then, I've seen embassies exploded, Navy ships attacked, Trade centers bombed, and then of course that lovely day when innocent people on airplanes were f*cking killed and then those airplanes
were driven into places containing my fellow Americans. So don't talk to me
about how we're to blame, how we're the ones looking for war, how we've screwed things up in the world. I can't stomach that crap. Those fuckers picked the wrong country to " test " that day. Sorry, but I do believe what we've done since was necessary. But that's me.

War will never beat these guys.....all it is doing is opening yourself for attack.....the logic of "lets bring the war to them" also applies to them as well...the US is at war with Fundanutalsim and that means you are fair game in this whole debacle....wish I hate to say it sucks....for yourself and me....

I think that Fundanutalism can be beat through non-military means....just no one wants to try it....Al Queda was hated in the Muslim World pre-9/11...take a look at Algeria and Egypt where they were responsible for hundreds of MUSLIM deaths for going against the faith....and you know I need to say this an extremist Fundanutalist is a dangerous man....the Muslim world in these nations were adamanet against these guys....these coutries rose out of their own terrorist attacks to create better countries and it was done through non-Western interference....

The West needs to win the people....you and I can easily view this war, from our point of view, as neccessary to save us...which is a fair statement....however there are millions of people over there who want what we take for granted....and all they see is death and destruction brought to them...from the people that their enemy (yes Fundanutalists are the enemy to the majority) is fighting...what do you do really?

The teachings of these nuts start to make sense to the common man...the power of the Fundanutalist is their power of saying "we told you they were the devil"..."this carbage was not rampant with Saddam...the US brings you death"...etc. They win the common man by emphasing your mistakes....they win the common man by instuting fear of you guys....the US needs to remove those mis-conceptions IMHO by chagning their tune in Iraq....and to do this will take drastic actions and that includes major re-building money for Iraq and withdrawl of troops...I believe the US can make something good about of something very bad...first they must admit mistake and tackle this problem more methodically...and that is through the people....

They need to be won over through non-military means...the common man...the majority want peace....to think of it any different is unfair...just the same as saying all Republicans are war mongerers...a few yes...the majority no......we all desire stability...now if the USA could do something different...for example how much money was spent on Iraq...$300 billion...instead of using weapons why not help the common Iraqi with that cash.....imagine the possibilites for that country with that much money invested in it and not through weapons...the majority would love you guys....they topple a ruthless dictator then they improve our society to help us....but no they toppled a dictator and choose a different route one built on a nationilistict agenda (which is another tool for the Fund-a-nuts)...one that brought the war to the comman man's home...they lost the common people and that is what is losing you this war.....sorry for the ramble just my thoughts on the ordeal....

Byrnzie

shiraz wrote:

some of you don't ask questions and wait for the answers, but asking and then assuming what the answers are according to their previous agenda. Others doing worse and don't even ask questions, just automaticly assuming things regardless the reality.

And you are never guilty of this are you Shiraz. You approach every piece of information that comes your way critically, and you check all of it's sources with a fine toothed comb in order to attempt to verify beyond reasonable doubt it's authenticity!
Or is it that you simply cast doubt upon anything which happens to conflict with your Pro-Israeli-U.S government view of the world??

shiraz

Byrnzie wrote:

And you are never guilty of this are you Shiraz. You approach every piece of information that comes your way critically, and you check all of it's sources with a fine toothed comb in order to attempt to verify beyond reasonable doubt it's authenticity!
Or is it that you simply cast doubt upon anything which happens to conflict with your Pro-Israeli-U.S government view of the world??

No, I'm actually not "guilty". You, on the other hand... Well, as someone who usually jumps to conclusions such as "Shiraz is a fraud", you are a perfect example of what I was talking about.

Rue D'Awakening

shiraz wrote:

What I really can't understand is how come few people here are not wondering about this well-writen article's lack of FACTS.

As I said many times before, I bet US, Europe (UN members) and Israel were watching Hizbullah's actions over the years (remember? we had a "preview" in 2003). If this attack was planed in advance then the outcome would have become different (=not too many civilians would have been killed & Hizbullah would have been destroyed). And just for the record, even our radical-left wing people are not buying that story.

What is it with you guys and conspiracy things? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...

There are no facts. Seymore Hersh never uses facts. If he did, he'd be out of a job. I had the misfortune of interning for him in New York last summer. The cocksucker even lied about paying me a stipend at the end. His only claim to fame is starting Americans for Peace Now and Israel Policy Forum, two organizations that became obsolete when Arafat blew up negotiations in 2000. No one listens to what he has to say unless they are inclined to indict Israel for existing.

If he isn't a noxious self-hating Jew, I don't know what is.
But people here obviously like what he says, so on MT it becomes fact.

Commy

El_Kabong wrote:

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Middle_East/0,,2-10-2075_1981865,00.html

New York - The US government was closely involved in the planning of Israel's military operations against Islamic militant group Hezbollah even before the July 12 kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers, The New Yorker magazine reported in its latest issue.

The kidnapping triggered a month-long Israeli operation in South Lebanon that is expected to come to an end on Monday.

But Pulitzer Prize-winning US journalist Seymour Hersh writes that President George W Bush and vice president Dick Cheney were convinced that a successful Israeli bombing campaign against Hezbollah could ease Israel's security concerns and also serve as a prelude to a potential US pre-emptive attack to destroy Iran's nuclear installations.

Citing an unnamed Middle East expert with knowledge of the current thinking of the Israeli and US governments, Israel had devised a plan for attacking Hezbollah - and shared it with Bush administration officials - well before the July 12 kidnappings.

The expert added that the White House had several reasons for supporting a bombing campaign, the report said.

If there was to be a military option against Iran, it had to get rid of the weapons Hezbollah could use in a potential retaliation against Israel, Hersh writes.

Citing a US government consultant with close ties to Israel, Hersh also reports that earlier this summer, before the Hezbollah kidnappings, several Israeli officials visited Washington "to get a green light" for a bombing operation following a Hezbollah provocation, and "to find out how much the United States would bear".

"The Israelis told us it would be a cheap war with many benefits," the magazine quotes the consultant as saying. "Why oppose it? We'll be able to hunt down and bomb missiles, tunnels, and bunkers from the air. It would be a demo for Iran."

US government officials have denied the charges.

Nonetheless, Hersh writes, a former senior intelligence official says some officers serving with the Joint Chiefs of Staff remain deeply concerned that the administration will have a far more positive assessment of the air campaign than they should.

"There is no way that (defence secretary Donald) Rumsfeld and Cheney will draw the right conclusion about this," the report quotes the former official as saying. "When the smoke clears, they'll say it was a success, and they'll draw reinforcement for their plan to attack Iran."

Thanks for the info. Its so funny...when you present facts about an issue that don't agree with some people's preconceived notions of a cetain set of events they ignore them-even if the source is the New York Times, the most wideley read newspaper in the world.

Open

DCGARDEN wrote:

Of course I don't believe this country does no wrong. Why would you even suggest that. But I would take issue with ANYONE who tries to spew this
" We were to blame for 9/11 " attitude. I'm only expressing that I see things very differently. I have not insulted, I have not judged you or anyone else who disagrees.

If you don't think war was necessary after that day, then you and I are not only of different views, but we live on different planets.

Of course there are extremists who are saying things similar. Are you seriously
under the impression that they're only saying these things because of the war in Iraq? You've gotta be kidding me. That is what I meant when saying the roots are deeper. All of these terror plots that have been foiled recently, for example. You think they're happening because we invaded Sadamm Hussein. I sure don't. War was declared on this country by Bin Laden, quite some time ago. Since then, I've seen embassies exploded, Navy ships attacked, Trade centers bombed, and then of course that lovely day when innocent people on airplanes were f*cking killed and then those airplanes
were driven into places containing my fellow Americans. So don't talk to me
about how we're to blame, how we're the ones looking for war, how we've screwed things up in the world. I can't stomach that crap. Those fuckers picked the wrong country to " test " that day. Sorry, but I do believe what we've done since was necessary. But that's me.

How was it necessary, what did it accomplish, how are we safer? Do you only care for American lives? Over 10x as many Iraqi civilians (innocent) have been killled as a result of that bitch Bushs actions. Do you not care about that? That means there are as 10x as many people who feel it is right to come kill us, just like you feel "what we've done is necessary". Bin Ladin is still out there and it will be a matter of time before he kills more people. "Those fuckers" how come their still out running about; while the people of Iraq are suffering from our "necessary" actions?

RVM86

Please.......you are obviously completely oblivious to the real threat of terrorist organizations like Hezbollah. It doesn't matter if you are black or white, christian, muslim, or an atheist. They want to kill everyone. It was right for Israel to stand up to Hezbollah. It is a shame no one has in the past. If you want to PEACE, like all you liberals make a fuss about, you MUST defeat terrorism.

Abookamongstthemany

RVM86 wrote:

Please.......you are obviously completely oblivious to the real threat of terrorist organizations like Hezbollah. It doesn't matter if you are black or white, christian, muslim, or an atheist. They want to kill everyone. It was right for Israel to stand up to Hezbollah. It is a shame no one has in the past. If you want to PEACE, like all you liberals make a fuss about, you MUST defeat terrorism.

Peace will not come by the death of any group. Peace will come from the death of that idealogy.

BleacherSlushie

The media should never be believed. They are never impartial as they would like you to believe. The only thing worse than a muslim is a reporter. They ignore the whole mideast to bring us the Jon Benet Ramsey case over and over and over and over and over and over again. Who really cares anymore? Murder happens in everywhere all over the world and the media focuses in on this one 10 years after the fact. Sounds like the media is not reporting on something significant that is happening. Wait how can anyone be against bombing Iran. If they develop a nuclear bomb they will use it! Israel will be the first to get hit then us.

PaperPlates

Open wrote:

How was it necessary, what did it accomplish, how are we safer? Do you only care for American lives? Over 10x as many Iraqi civilians (innocent) have been killled as a result of that bitch Bushs actions. Do you not care about that? That means there are as 10x as many people who feel it is right to come kill us, just like you feel "what we've done is necessary". Bin Ladin is still out there and it will be a matter of time before he kills more people. "Those fuckers" how come their still out running about; while the people of Iraq are suffering from our "necessary" actions?

so, the Iraq citizens being killed by Iranian trained soldiers as well is okay, or its Bush's fault? Anything not Bush's fault? They really have you guys trained well, focus on blaming bush, so you don't notice whats really coming at you. GG>

Commy

PaperPlates wrote:

so, the Iraq citizens being killed by Iranian trained soldiers as well is okay, or its Bush's fault? Anything not Bush's fault? They really have you guys trained well, focus on blaming bush, so you don't notice whats really coming at you. GG>

interesting...and proabbly true-that Iran is arming factions in Iraq. But also I think its fairly obvious the US is playing the same game. If you look at history-and you don't really have to go back too far-its seems obvious (to me anyway) that Iraq has been turned into the familiar template of a state post US invasion.

Yugoslavia was broken up...now ruled by pro-US authority, Afghanistan was the same. And Iraq is fitting that mold as well, along with at least a dozen or so others going back as far as 1970.

They divide and rule..allowing corporations access to the readily available resources labored out by the very oppresses majority of most of these countries. And its happened so often the patterns are obvcius, and every journalist in the US is failing in their duty to their country and the people by not reporting this very obvious pattern.

Iraq may have been a bit more than they expected to get into, and only someone as brutal as Saddam could really keep them all from degenerating into civil war...bu then again maybe not...now its Iran and Syria trying to keepo a pro-US gov't out of their backyard while the US tries violently to install just such an authority. And it wouldn't surpise me if Chinese funding has somehow reached its way into the region, to oppose US interests, though that is pure speculation.

We can be sure the US is arming certain factions in Iraq while Iran is doing the same, and the majority of the people in Iraq are being caught in the middle of this game, paying with their lives.

brianjd

If you do your homework, Sharon was reported to have told the UN and the EU (arent they one in the same) that if they did not handle the iran nuke problem by March that they would. Sharon went into a coma and Israel changed leadership. With an August 31 deadline coming on iran to disarm, removing Hezbollah missiles from israeli borders makes sense if the attack is coming Is there a reason why the world continues to think it ok that Jews should just accept casualties hand over fist while Europeans and Americans sit without hostile missles 20 miles from their cities? So did Israel and the US coordinate? Absolutely. Israel did this with Bush Administration running interference at the UN. Unfortunately Israel did not get the job done and it emboldened Iran. So should we just wait for a known enemy with missile capacity and militias who are not bound by international accords to receive long range missles that will eventually be Nuclear tipped if we do nothing?
Look I am no fan of Geroge W but some of you people need to wake up and look around. On this one we cannot wait. We need to take out Iran now. I for one would gladly go to the recruiting office on this one.

MrBrian

brianjd wrote:

Look I am no fan of Geroge W but some of you people need to wake up and look around. On this one we cannot wait. We need to take out Iran now. I for one would gladly go to the recruiting office on this one.

Would you like a list of recruiting locations? I'll quickly google it for yeah if you want. I really don't mind.

brianjd

MrBrian wrote:

Would you like a list of recruiting locations? I'll quickly google it for yeah if you want. I really don't mind.

or would you miss too many desperate housewives episodes?

OutOfBreath

Commy wrote:

Yugoslavia was broken up...now ruled by pro-US authority, Afghanistan was the same. And Iraq is fitting that mold as well, along with at least a dozen or so others going back as far as 1970.

I dont think Yugoslavia is a good example. There the US was pretty reluctant to interfere from the outset. It did step in, because european nations asked very nicely if it wouldn't, as they were nervous about such a conflict so close to home. Now if you consider US and EU two sides of the same coin, then I guess. But remember that Yugoslavia was definitely an agressor, and was taking steps towards ethnic cleansing. Lucky for the albanians, that Europe won't sit idly by when it happens literally on their doorstep. But had this happened in Africa, they wouldn't have given a fuck about it, make no mistake.

But actually, Yugoslavia and Somalia in the 90s, are two attempts, as I see it, at more genuine peace-keeping missions, as none of them were directly related to US interests in any way. After Somalia, it seems the americans won't bother to do that again, unless there's something in it for them.

The US are behind a lot of bad, but not all the bad.

(edit) as for US and Israel planning wars, they do so all the time. Especially the US. I believe Pentagon are developing plans for just about any contingency to be on the safe side. Fair enough, a plan is not an intention to use. However, existence of plans may influence actions in wrong ways. The same way existence of plans and large militaries paved the way for WW1. Germany attacked France, because Russia was mobilizing, and they didn't want a 2-front war. they knew they had 2-3 weeks until Russia was ready because of their poor infrastructure so they had a window there. They failed, got the 2-front war and the trenches. So plans does not imply usage in itself, but the existence of plans do increase their probability of being executed, as those making them know about them.

Peace
Dan

spiral out

DCGARDEN wrote:

How you can pretend to know me or anyone else based on a few sentences on a Pearl Jam politcal forum is disturbing. You just used the words " cheer on a war you are afraid to take part in " dumb statement. Re-Think your position on that one. You know nothing about me. Your mind is obviously closed. I have no stiffy for bloodshed - but I do have a stiffy for this country. Whether you want to believe it or not, what attacked this country was not merely a tall man with a long beard. The roots are deeper than that.
I believe that our military should've been unleashed on the Middle East , yes.
War is not pretty, I have children about the age of the son you speak of, and understand all of the risks that go along with it. But, my personal view is that war is necessary at times. If you disagree with that, more power to you.
I would not judge your position or pretend to know what brought you to your conclusions. I would only ask that you extend the same courtesy -

Where exactly is your prove that the middle east had anything to with 9/11? Oh your goverment told you so, so it must be true, and of course it is every single person and country in the middle east that planned the attack. So we should just go in and wipe them out.