A plane hit the pentagon on 9/11 not a missle. I think it is sick that so many people won't let go of the conspiracy theories. Its all a bunch of people trying to sell books, or push their own agenda. And for others, its purely entertainment, truely disgusting.
The gov could end this by releasing all the video from that they took from any camera near by.
I agree with alot of what people have said here. I did not personally see the plane hit the pentagon, but my sister did. She was right there, and it was unmistakable.
I don't have a problem with people questioning the gov'ts actions in response to 9/11. Even questioning their actions leading up to that terrible day. What I don't understand is people insatiable need to find a conspiracy in it. The real story is horrid enough, don't you think?
In answer to many people's inquiries about making information public: I agree with you, it would leave little room for conspiracy theories if there was 1000's of videos of the plane hitting the pentagon, much like the world trade center.
You have to understand that the pentagon is the most secure building in the united states, aside from the white house itself. You are not allowed to photograph the building, have a news camera even pointing at the thing under normal circumstances. There simply weren't any tourist cameras videographing the event, but there are rarely opportunities to record anything on the grounds.
Also, part of the reason we haven't gotten more information as to the aftermath, the damage, etc is also because it is a secure building. This is the epicenter of our armed forces. Much like we don't see pictures of our bases on the news when they are hit by bombs in afghanistan and iraq, you won't see much in terms of detailed evidence in the wake of the 9/11 attack.
All of the attacks on 9/11 were tragic, but the attack on the pentagon was handled differently because of the nature of the building. I hope for some of you this helps clear up all of the misinformation and rumor you may find online about this particular event.
I agree with alot of what people have said here. I did not personally see the plane hit the pentagon, but my sister did. She was right there, and it was unmistakable.
I don't have a problem with people questioning the gov'ts actions in response to 9/11. Even questioning their actions leading up to that terrible day. What I don't understand is people insatiable need to find a conspiracy in it. The real story is horrid enough, don't you think?
In answer to many people's inquiries about making information public: I agree with you, it would leave little room for conspiracy theories if there was 1000's of videos of the plane hitting the pentagon, much like the world trade center.
You have to understand that the pentagon is the most secure building in the united states, aside from the white house itself. You are not allowed to photograph the building, have a news camera even pointing at the thing under normal circumstances. There simply weren't any tourist cameras videographing the event, but there are rarely opportunities to record anything on the grounds.
Also, part of the reason we haven't gotten more information as to the aftermath, the damage, etc is also because it is a secure building. This is the epicenter of our armed forces. Much like we don't see pictures of our bases on the news when they are hit by bombs in afghanistan and iraq, you won't see much in terms of detailed evidence in the wake of the 9/11 attack.
All of the attacks on 9/11 were tragic, but the attack on the pentagon was handled differently because of the nature of the building. I hope for some of you this helps clear up all of the misinformation and rumor you may find online about this particular event.
who said you're not allowed to photograph the pentagon? how would they stop you? there's a gas station and a hotel which both had cameras pointing towards the pentagon that had their tapes confiscated right after the building was hit...they show us the towers being hit over and over and over...yet we're not allowed to see the pentagon?
this isn't directed at you necessarily, but i'm still waiting on a reply as to how a KNOWN hijacked plane made a u-turn, flew thru dc's no-fly zone, made another u-turn...all this over 1 1/2 hours after the first tower was hit and no military were ever scrambled...why did cheney wait until right before the pentagon was hit to give the order?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
who said you're not allowed to photograph the pentagon? how would they stop you? there's a gas station and a hotel which both had cameras pointing towards the pentagon that had their tapes confiscated right after the building was hit...they show us the towers being hit over and over and over...yet we're not allowed to see the pentagon?
this isn't directed at you necessarily, but i'm still waiting on a reply as to how a KNOWN hijacked plane made a u-turn, flew thru dc's no-fly zone, made another u-turn...all this over 1 1/2 hours after the first tower was hit and no military were ever scrambled...why did cheney wait until right before the pentagon was hit to give the order?
I'm wondering if you have ever had a chance to visit DC? Its a beautiful city, lots to see and do, you should come out this way if you ever have the opportunity.
Having not seen the area (which I am making the assumption that you haven't), I suppose I should try to explain the area a bit better.
The pentagon is an armed building, with lots of security partoling the premisis. You cannot simply walk into the building, or even close to it without proper identification. If you are a tourist or visitor standing within eyeshot of the pentagon with a video camera, security will approach you and ask you to stop. Local news coverage even needs special permission to do a live shot from the pentagon, because there is so much sensitive information and personel that pass through that building every day.
Yes, there were security camera's in both the gas station and the hotel, for their own security, I do not believe that they were pointed at the pentagon (although I do believe that some of the background may have included video of the plane). This is controlled, and for security to those establishments, that is why it exists.
The point I was trying to make was that unlike the World Trade Center, which is a privately owned, commercial building, the pentagon has been one of the most highly secure buildings in the country. That is why you won't see alot of private video's of the buildings. That is why the attack on the pentagon is treated differently from a "right to know" perspective.
As far as the plane getting shot down, making the order, etc. I really wish I understood that myself. Pre-9/11, the thought of shooting down a passanger airliner was unthinkable. we all got a tough lesson that day. I would imagine that even our gov't officals would have had to hesitate for a moment given the magnitude of the attacks that day. Hindsight being 20/20, I would imagine that our officals wish they had shot that plane down. But at that time, on that day, its hard to say. The entire area is highly congested as well, so shooting a plane down would likely have caused deaths beyond those on the plane. Its a big question, but I think we'd all know the answer if a plane would be hijacked today.
Sorry to go on and on, but I wanted to make one more point.
You mentioned the "no fly zone" over DC. It is possible that there was some thought that the plane may have intended to land at National Airport, which is only a stones throw away from the pentagon. While the airspace is controlled, moreso now than pre 9/11, there is a lot of commercial airliner traffic that comes in and out of that airspace on a daily basis. It is not as though the presence of a passanger plane in the airspace over DC was a totally unmistakable sign. Wasn't sure if you knew about National Airport being so close.
If it is one of the most armed buildings in our nation, wouldn't you think there would be cameras all around it, possibly showing every possible angle of the plane flying into the building?
If it is one of the most armed buildings in our nation, wouldn't you think there would be cameras all around it, possibly showing every possible angle of the plane flying into the building?
this is the only video I have seen. a plane can not be clearly seen and I think because it was moving too fast and the camera couldnt actually catch a clear shot even in one frame.
If it is one of the most armed buildings in our nation, wouldn't you think there would be cameras all around it, possibly showing every possible angle of the plane flying into the building?
I would assume that there are camera's outside and in the surrounding areas of the pentagon. The reason those would not be released is simple; its classified information.
There is all kinds of red tape surrounding any type of sensitive information in our gov't. Perhaps they haven't been relesased due to "ongoing criminal investigations", because the footgage could be used for propaganda, etc.
I'm not saying its right, but if you understand how classified information becomes declassified throughout history, it is not an instantaneous event, nor is it often one that is taken with haste due to public demand.
Again, thats whats different about the pentagon. The footage you saw of the world trade centers being hit was for the most part private party, or live news coverage of a public building in NY, not a secure one in DC.
I could have sworn I read somewhere they weren't releasing those tapes because of the Zacarias Moussaoui trial. I am trying to find where I read that..Anyone else remember reading that?
Stix and Stones may break my bones, but More than Words will never hurt me.
I could have sworn I read somewhere they weren't releasing those tapes because of the Zacarias Moussaoui trial. I am trying to find where I read that..Anyone else remember reading that?
Yes. That was stated often, in combination with a more vague "ongoing criminal investigation". That could be tied to folks at guantanamo or elsewhere I would think.
questions that seem to have not been officially answered:
why, at the PENTAGON, (surely one of, if not THEE most heavily guarded and monitored buildings in the country), did only one little shitty camera get footage of the "accident"---??
"eyewitnesses" who "saw" a flying object hit the building---
what were they doing at the pentagon? i would guess that there aren't too many people who are allowed to just "hang out" around there. so if they are government employees, well...
any unofficial conspirators have the answers?
peace
lz
The world is like a ride in an amusement park, and when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. The ride goes up and down, around and around, it has thrills and chills, and it's very brightly colored, and it's very loud, and it's fun for a while. Many people have been on the ride a long time, and they begin to wonder, "Hey, is this real, or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered, and they come back to us and say, "Hey, don't worry; don't be afraid, ever. Because this is just a ride." And we...kill those people. "Shut him up! I've got a lot invested in this ride, shut him up! Look at my furrows of worry, look at my big bank account, and my family. This has to be real." It's just a ride. But we always kill the good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok? But it doesn't matter, because it's just a ride. And we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings of money. Just a simple choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.
--Bill Hicks
questions that seem to have not been officially answered:
why, at the PENTAGON, (surely one of, if not THEE most heavily guarded and monitored buildings in the country), did only one little shitty camera get footage of the "accident"---??
"eyewitnesses" who "saw" a flying object hit the building---
what were they doing at the pentagon? i would guess that there aren't too many people who are allowed to just "hang out" around there. so if they are government employees, well...
any unofficial conspirators have the answers?
peace
lz
Did you read all of the posts? Both of those have already been addressed. Its really none of your concern what my sister was doing in the area, certainly not a reason to consider her a potential conspirator. That is laughable!!
Did you read all of the posts? Both of those have already been addressed. Its really none of your concern what my sister was doing in the area, certainly not a reason to consider her a potential conspirator. That is laughable!!
glad you can laugh about it.
The world is like a ride in an amusement park, and when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. The ride goes up and down, around and around, it has thrills and chills, and it's very brightly colored, and it's very loud, and it's fun for a while. Many people have been on the ride a long time, and they begin to wonder, "Hey, is this real, or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered, and they come back to us and say, "Hey, don't worry; don't be afraid, ever. Because this is just a ride." And we...kill those people. "Shut him up! I've got a lot invested in this ride, shut him up! Look at my furrows of worry, look at my big bank account, and my family. This has to be real." It's just a ride. But we always kill the good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok? But it doesn't matter, because it's just a ride. And we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings of money. Just a simple choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.
--Bill Hicks
Well, I do find your statement amusing. The fact that you would go so far as to imply that any eyewitnesses there at the pentagon that day are co-conspirators is rediculous.
I'm wondering if you have ever had a chance to visit DC? Its a beautiful city, lots to see and do, you should come out this way if you ever have the opportunity.
Having not seen the area (which I am making the assumption that you haven't), I suppose I should try to explain the area a bit better.
The pentagon is an armed building, with lots of security partoling the premisis. You cannot simply walk into the building, or even close to it without proper identification. If you are a tourist or visitor standing within eyeshot of the pentagon with a video camera, security will approach you and ask you to stop. Local news coverage even needs special permission to do a live shot from the pentagon, because there is so much sensitive information and personel that pass through that building every day.
Yes, there were security camera's in both the gas station and the hotel, for their own security, I do not believe that they were pointed at the pentagon (although I do believe that some of the background may have included video of the plane). This is controlled, and for security to those establishments, that is why it exists.
The point I was trying to make was that unlike the World Trade Center, which is a privately owned, commercial building, the pentagon has been one of the most highly secure buildings in the country. That is why you won't see alot of private video's of the buildings. That is why the attack on the pentagon is treated differently from a "right to know" perspective.
As far as the plane getting shot down, making the order, etc. I really wish I understood that myself. Pre-9/11, the thought of shooting down a passanger airliner was unthinkable. we all got a tough lesson that day. I would imagine that even our gov't officals would have had to hesitate for a moment given the magnitude of the attacks that day. Hindsight being 20/20, I would imagine that our officals wish they had shot that plane down. But at that time, on that day, its hard to say. The entire area is highly congested as well, so shooting a plane down would likely have caused deaths beyond those on the plane. Its a big question, but I think we'd all know the answer if a plane would be hijacked today.
actually i lived in northern virginia, 30 min south of dc for over 2 decades of my life....you really should work on those assumptions
the metro is right there next to the pentagon, i'm sure if you walk around being obvious about it someone will come out and say something to you...but having grown up there in the area i've taken plenty of pics outside the pentagon, i've even been inside it when i was a seasonal hire while in college during the summers.
you are confusing things, it wasn't just the authority to shoot down planes that was taken away from norad, it was the authority to do ANYTHING, even just scrambling jets and intercepting it.
as for thinking it might land at national...no...it was known to be a hijacked plane, 2 hijacked planes hit the world trade center towers starting 1 1/2 hours before that...you honestly think they thought gee, they already hit 2 buildings, maybe this time they will just land? ha!
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
actually i lived in northern virginia, 30 min south of dc for over 2 decades of my life....you really should work on those assumptions
the metro is right there next to the pentagon, i'm sure if you walk around being obvious about it someone will come out and say something to you...but having grown up there in the area i've taken plenty of pics outside the pentagon, i've even been inside it when i was a seasonal hire while in college during the summers.
you are confusing things, it wasn't just the authority to shoot down planes that was taken away from norad, it was the authority to do ANYTHING, even just scrambling jets and intercepting it.
as for thinking it might land at national...no...it was known to be a hijacked plane, 2 hijacked planes hit the world trade center towers starting 1 1/2 hours before that...you honestly think they thought gee, they already hit 2 buildings, maybe this time they will just land? ha!
I wasn't making an assumption, that is why I asked if you'd ever been here, because you seemed to know so little about the security around the pentagon. There is a difference between asking a question and making an assumption I even noted that I was assuming you hadn't.
There were jets scrambled, where there not?
I could not possibly know what the powers that be were thinking on that day, just throwing some toughts around. Post 9/11 I am certain that the planes would have been shot down, but alot has changed in our collective mindset since 9/11.
I wasn't making an assumption, that is why I asked if you'd ever been here, because you seemed to know so little about the security around the pentagon. There is a difference between asking a question and making an assumption I even noted that I was assuming you hadn't.
There were jets scrambled, where there not?
I could not possibly know what the powers that be were thinking on that day, just throwing some toughts around. Post 9/11 I am certain that the planes would have been shot down, but alot has changed in our collective mindset since 9/11.
jets were scrambled, but very late. jets had been scrabled hundreds of times the years before 9/11 when planes went off course or didn't respond...
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
jets were scrambled, but very late. jets had been scrabled hundreds of times the years before 9/11 when planes went off course or didn't respond...
Ok, I'm done discussing this with you now. You clearly aren't seeking truth, but rather looking to make any statement to further the debate, even if you correct your lies and mistruths in your very next statement
Ok, I'm done discussing this with you now. You clearly aren't seeking truth, but rather looking to make any statement to further the debate, even if you correct your lies and mistruths in your very next statement
Air support should have been sent long before they were, I believe it was something like a 90 min. gap between when the planes were hijacked and when the Pentagon was hit. They already knew about the hijacking/attacks of the planes in New York, why on Earth did it take so long to get things going when you knew that these planes were going to be used as missles
jets were scrambled, but very late. jets had been scrabled hundreds of times the years before 9/11 when planes went off course or didn't respond...
dont think thats essentially true..
CLAIM: "It has been standard operating procedures for decades to immediately intercept off-course planes that do not respond to communications from air traffic controllers," says the Web site oilempire.us. "When the Air Force 'scrambles' a fighter plane to intercept, they usually reach the plane in question in minutes."
FACT: In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999. With passengers and crew unconscious from cabin decompression, the plane lost radio contact but remained in transponder contact until it crashed. Even so, it took an F-16 1 hour and 22 minutes to reach the stricken jet. Rules in effect back then, and on 9/11, prohibited supersonic flight on intercepts. Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ). "Until 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ," FAA spokesman Bill Schumann tells PM. After 9/11, NORAD and the FAA increased cooperation, setting up hotlines between ATCs and NORAD command centers, according to officials from both agencies. NORAD has also increased its fighter coverage and has installed radar to monitor airspace over the continent.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
Air support should have been sent long before they were, I believe it was something like a 90 min. gap between when the planes were hijacked and when the Pentagon was hit. They already knew about the hijacking/attacks of the planes in New York, why on Earth did it take so long to get things going when you knew that these planes were going to be used as missles
i presume it takes a huge chain of commands to be made to enable a fighter jet pilot to shot down a plane full of his own countrymen, women and children... they have to be bang on the money identifiying the plane wouldnt they? 100% with no doubts certain they were bringing down the right plane... its easy to say "they should have brought it down" without knowing the full chain of events that goes into that thinking... i mean, were american pilots specifically trained pre-911 to shot down airplanes containing innocent US civilians (and other nationalities) as well as young kids, old people, etc... thats a heavy emotional burden to bear, and maybe its a last resort scenario.... see how long it took them to find Payne Stewarts plane... and his transponder was on... without the transponder on, on this plane it'd be like trying to find a needle in a giant stack of needles!!
CLAIM: No fighter jets were scrambled from any of the 28 Air Force bases within close range of the four hijacked flights. "On 11 September Andrews had two squadrons of fighter jets with the job of protecting the skies over Washington D.C.," says the Web site emperors-clothes.com. "They failed to do their job." "There is only one explanation for this," writes Mark R. Elsis of StandDown.net. "Our Air Force was ordered to Stand Down on 9/11."
FACT: On 9/11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the contiguous 48 states. No computer network or alarm automatically alerted the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) of missing planes. "They [civilian Air Traffic Control, or ATC] had to pick up the phone and literally dial us," says Maj. Douglas Martin, public affairs officer for NORAD. Boston Center, one of 22 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times: at 8:37 am EST to inform NEADS that Flight 11 was hijacked; at 9:21 am to inform the agency, mistakenly, that Flight 11 was headed for Washington (the plane had hit the North Tower 35 minutes earlier); and at 9:41 am to (erroneously) identify Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 from Boston as a possible hijacking. The New York ATC called NEADS at 9:03 am to report that United Flight 175 had been hijacked--the same time the plane slammed into the South Tower. Within minutes of that first call from Boston Center, NEADS scrambled two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Mass., and three F-16s from Langley Air National Guard Base in Hampton, Va. None of the fighters got anywhere near the pirated planes.
Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When the hijackers turned off the planes' transponders, which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors. And NORAD's sophisticated radar? It ringed the continent, looking outward for threats, not inward. "It was like a doughnut," Martin says. "There was no coverage in the middle." Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats and NORAD wasn't prepared to track them.
so how were these fighters supposed to find the missing flights? also, if you shoot down a commercial airliner with all on board and then it ploughs into a fucking school killing 300 kids... then you have to weigh up a lot of options and opinions... human nature will hold you back purely on the basis of "odds"... what are the odds of this being the wrong plane... and a jet-pilot has shot down the wrong plane.... imagine the furore then!!!!!
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
Ok, I'm done discussing this with you now. You clearly aren't seeking truth, but rather looking to make any statement to further the debate, even if you correct your lies and mistruths in your very next statement
what are you talking about? you started being a smartass, ASSUMING things...then you say you weren't assuming at all! but end the state ment re-enforcing it w/ "i even said i assumed" so you weren't assuming, you only assumed.....?
did you read anything i posted? did you read there were already 2 fighters patrolling long island when the first tower was hit, yet they weren't sent to the area until much later? how did you correct that?
"Long Island to Manhattan
Two F-15s flying off the coast of Long Island were not redeployed to Mahattan until after the second tower was hit. 3 "
"While Flights 11 and 175 were in the air, two F-15s were circling in a 150-mile chunk of air space off the coast of Long Island as ordered. Pilot Major Daniel Nash reported seeing a plume of smoke over Manhattan even though he was 70 miles away, and couldn't recall being told about the North Tower strike. After the second Tower was hit at 9:03, the pilots were ordered to head to Manhattan for combat air patrol, and they did that for the next four hours. 4"
plz, correct that! or this
"At 9:09, NORAD ordered Langley Air Force Base, in Hampden, Virginia, to put F-16s on battle stations alert. The order to scramble was not given until around 9:25. 6 At 9:30, the two and possibly three F-16s were finally airborne and en route to the Pentagon. 7 They were armed with Sidewinder missiles and authorized to shoot down civilian aircraft. At 9:49 the F-16s reached the Pentagon, around 15 minutes after the Pentagon strike. Simple calculations reveal that the F-16s could have reached the Pentagon before the assault, but also flew at an average of 24% of their top speeds.
At 10:01 AM the FAA ordered the 180th Fighter Wing out of Swanton, Ohio, to scramble F-16 fighters. 8 Unlike many other bases, Swanton had no fighters on stand-by alert status. Yet it managed to put jets in the air 16 minutes later."
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Air support should have been sent long before they were, I believe it was something like a 90 min. gap between when the planes were hijacked and when the Pentagon was hit. They already knew about the hijacking/attacks of the planes in New York, why on Earth did it take so long to get things going when you knew that these planes were going to be used as missles
exactly, see my post above this
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
CLAIM: "It has been standard operating procedures for decades to immediately intercept off-course planes that do not respond to communications from air traffic controllers," says the Web site oilempire.us. "When the Air Force 'scrambles' a fighter plane to intercept, they usually reach the plane in question in minutes."
FACT: In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999. With passengers and crew unconscious from cabin decompression, the plane lost radio contact but remained in transponder contact until it crashed. Even so, it took an F-16 1 hour and 22 minutes to reach the stricken jet. Rules in effect back then, and on 9/11, prohibited supersonic flight on intercepts. Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ). "Until 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ," FAA spokesman Bill Schumann tells PM. After 9/11, NORAD and the FAA increased cooperation, setting up hotlines between ATCs and NORAD command centers, according to officials from both agencies. NORAD has also increased its fighter coverage and has installed radar to monitor airspace over the continent.
that's interesting phrasing your source has there...
in the DECADE before...ie the 90's...well, what about the 2000's??
"It is standard operating procedure (SOP) to scramble jet fighters whenever a jetliner goes off course or radio contact with it is lost. Between September 2000 and June 2001, interceptors were scrambled 67 times. 1 In the year 2000 jets were scrambled 129 times. 2"
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i presume it takes a huge chain of commands to be made to enable a fighter jet pilot to shot down a plane full of his own countrymen, women and children...
I believe the only chain of command would be Vice president Cheney who took the authorization away from NORAD months before 9/11. I guess if you say the "huge chain of commands" is what delayed the response (when in fact the chain of command was one mans decision), than it just proves how slow the gov't response to the highjackings were.
CLAIM: No fighter jets were scrambled from any of the 28 Air Force bases within close range of the four hijacked flights. "On 11 September Andrews had two squadrons of fighter jets with the job of protecting the skies over Washington D.C.," says the Web site emperors-clothes.com. "They failed to do their job." "There is only one explanation for this," writes Mark R. Elsis of StandDown.net. "Our Air Force was ordered to Stand Down on 9/11."
FACT: On 9/11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the contiguous 48 states. No computer network or alarm automatically alerted the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) of missing planes. "They [civilian Air Traffic Control, or ATC] had to pick up the phone and literally dial us," says Maj. Douglas Martin, public affairs officer for NORAD. Boston Center, one of 22 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times: at 8:37 am EST to inform NEADS that Flight 11 was hijacked; at 9:21 am to inform the agency, mistakenly, that Flight 11 was headed for Washington (the plane had hit the North Tower 35 minutes earlier); and at 9:41 am to (erroneously) identify Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 from Boston as a possible hijacking. The New York ATC called NEADS at 9:03 am to report that United Flight 175 had been hijacked--the same time the plane slammed into the South Tower. Within minutes of that first call from Boston Center, NEADS scrambled two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Mass., and three F-16s from Langley Air National Guard Base in Hampton, Va. None of the fighters got anywhere near the pirated planes.
"At 10:01 AM the FAA ordered the 180th Fighter Wing out of Swanton, Ohio, to scramble F-16 fighters. 8 Unlike many other bases, Swanton had no fighters on stand-by alert status. Yet it managed to put jets in the air 16 minutes later."
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
that's interesting phrasing your source has there...
in the DECADE before...ie the 90's...well, what about the 2000's??
"It is standard operating procedure (SOP) to scramble jet fighters whenever a jetliner goes off course or radio contact with it is lost. Between September 2000 and June 2001, interceptors were scrambled 67 times. 1 In the year 2000 jets were scrambled 129 times. 2"
i think decade can be grammatically used to encompass 10 years prior to a given year... i.e. the decade prior to my birth year of 1974 would be 1963-1973... a decade is just 10 years of time... it doesnt have to end in a zero for it to be a decade.
i bet all of the above scrambling of jets happened off-shore, and searching for planes that had their transformers still on.. the 9/11 scrambling debacle show how grossly inept the govt was at being ready for such an event....
as i've previously posted:- Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When the hijackers turned off the planes' transponders, which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors. And NORAD's sophisticated radar? It ringed the continent, looking outward for threats, not inward. "It was like a doughnut," Martin says. "There was no coverage in the middle." Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats and NORAD wasn't prepared to track them
this is the size of the task ahead of them... 4500 identical blips of radar to find one plane.... mmmmm doughnuts!!!
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
I believe the only chain of command would be Vice president Cheney who took the authorization away from NORAD months before 9/11. I guess if you say the "huge chain of commands" is what delayed the response (when in fact the chain of command was one mans decision), than it just proves how slow the gov't response to the highjackings were.
no... he is at the top of the chain of command.... its not like he picks up the phone and calls the pilot himself... which would be a small chain of command... Cheney would call say Defense Secretary, he in turn would call USAF, who would then call some general somewhere who in turn would call the specific airbase commanders who in turn would raise the order to stand-by pilots..
this is a chain of command, you only highlighted who had the ultimate decision... thats a totally different thing
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
Jets from a Massachusetts base circled New York. Jets from Virginia soared over the nation's capitol.
And, guarding the rest of the nation in the first chaotic minutes of the crisis: F-16s from Toledo.
Federal military officials recently confirmed that the 180th Fighter Wing - an Ohio Air National Guard unit based at Toledo Express Airport - was the first unit outside the East Coast to answer the Air Force's plea for immediate help.
And had the last hijacked plane continued west - or had any other hijacked plane headed across the heartland - the Toledo fighter wing was the only unit immediately available to carry out the ultimate act: Shoot it down.
"They had the fuel. They had guns. That's what was needed," said retired Lt. Col. Alan Scott, who has been analyzing the air responses for the Air Force.
Three months after the worst terrorist attack in America's history, new details are emerging about the frenzied minutes from the time the first plane hit the World Trade Center to the time the nation had grounded every civilian plane in the sky.
The man responsible for coordinating the air defense strategy over the hard-hit area - Lt. Col. Robert Marr - confirmed to The Blade last week that the Toledo unit played a critical role as the nation's military geared up for any more attacks.
"It just had a phenomenal response on Sept. 11," Colonel Marr said from his command post in Rome, N.Y.
The new details also reveal a key weakness in the nation's air defense system on Sept. 11 - a weakness that left the interior of the nation more vulnerable.
Up until that day, the military's radar trackers had a Cold War posture of looking outside America's borders for threatening invaders. Those radars were positioned along the continental coasts, leaving blind spots in America's interior.
That meant the military was forced to rely on civilian air traffic controllers at the Federal Aviation Administration to detect what was in the skies - something they're now trying to fix.
"We're working very hard in trying to achieve an interior look," said Colonel Scott, now an Air Force consultant, whose first briefing of the issue was broadcast on C-Span last week.
Toledo's response on Sept. 11 is believed to be the first time the unit has answered a call from the North American Aerospace Defense Command, or NORAD - the special U.S. and Canadian military agency that scans the skies around the continent watching for any kind of invaders, from nuclear missiles to foreign fighter jets.
A former commander of the Toledo fighter wing, Lt. Col. Gary Chudzinsk, said the local base has always been aware that it could be alerted to such crises "but you just don't expect it."
"In [my] 31 years, I've never heard of that happening," said the lieutenant colonel, who retired seven years ago.
But with the hijackers striking the nation's vital spots, military officials say they were forced to call Toledo and other units to protect America's interior.
To be sure, the nation was in a deep peace on the morning of Sept. 11. Only 14 military jets were on alert at seven locations at 8 a.m. EST - all along the country's borders, according to the briefing.
Additionally, the people who monitor America's radar system - the Federal Aviation Administration - were not poised for what was about to unfold.
The trouble began at 8:20 a.m., when the first hijacked airliner, American Airlines Flight 11, turned off its transponder, an electronic device that tells the FAA the plane's location.
Twenty minutes later - after the plane veered off course - FAA officials alerted the North East Air Defense Sector based in Rome, N.Y., of the possible hijacking. Six minutes later, the plane crashed into the trade center.
At that same time, the military response began. The sector commander, Colonel Marr, ordered two Massachusetts-based F-15 fighter jets to prepare for takeoff. In six minutes - considered a quick response time - the jets left for New York, closing the 153-mile gap at speeds of 950 mph.
They were eight minutes too late to catch the second plane's crash into the trade center, but they set up an air patrol of the city to catch any other potential hijacked planes.
Within a few minutes, hijackers took control of the third plane as it crossed the southern tip of Ohio, turning it around toward Washington. A military transport plane in the area told the FAA it was flying low and fast, prompting air traffic controllers to call the Rome, N.Y., command center.
Two jets were scrambled for takeoff, and within six minutes they embarked on a 100-mile journey from Langley Air Force base in southeastern Virginia to Washington. But the third plane crashed into the Pentagon as the jets were 12 minutes away.
Then, a fourth plane deviated from its westward flight path and circled counter-clockwise around the western Cleveland suburbs, prompting another call from the FAA to Rome, N.Y., command center.
By 10:01 a.m., the command center began calling several bases across the country for help. That included a phone call to Toledo's 1,000-member 180th Fighter Wing.
At 10:17 a.m., according to the briefing, Toledo's fighter jets took off, heading east.
"They basically just took aircraft that were just being set up for training missions and launched out to help defend the skies over North America, wherever they could," Colonel Marr said. "[The response was] very, very, very quick."
By then, President Bush had issued an order to shoot down that fourth plane before it hit any potential targets, and the jets in Washington were still circling.
It's unclear what role Toledo's jets played before they were joined by Air National Guard jets from Syracuse at 10:44 a.m. The fourth plane crashed into a western Pennsylvania hillside sometime between 10:02 and 10:10 a.m., officials say.
Toledo Air Guard officials declined to talk about the events that morning, even in general terms permitted by the military.
Lt. Col. Carole Allen - the base spokeswoman - said personnel were still grieving over the unexpected death of their 44-year-old commander of operations, Pete Raffa, who died seven days ago of a heart attack.
But, in explaining their mission, Colonel Marr said the Toledo jets "never had a track close enough that they were directed to engage."
"[But] if a valid direction had come from the appropriate level to engage a target, or shoot down a target at some time, they could have done that," he said.
And, at the time, military and civilian officials were scrambling to land all the other commercial planes in the air during the crisis - plus sort out more than a dozen false reports of additional hijackings.
"By the time [Toledo's jets] got in the air, all those four [hijacked planes] were down," Colonel Marr said. "The problem was, we didn't know those were only the four."
Another problem was that military commanders were never fully able to track all hijacked jetliners. The third flight - the one that hit the Pentagon - left NORAD's radar system shortly before it crossed the southern tip of Ohio.
That left the military relying on the FAA, which has no authority to direct military defense.
Complicating matters: Until the Sept. 11 attacks, the military relied on the FAA to ask for help before the Defense Department took action in a potential hijacking. The civilian agency, initially, was late calling key events:
Eleven minutes after American Airlines Flight 11 crashed into the trade center, the FAA formally notified the military the airplane had crashed. Until then, the responding fighter jets did not know the plane had crashed.
It took three minutes after United Airlines Flight 175 crashed into the trade center for the FAA to report it had been hijacked. It took an additional six minutes for the FAA to formally report the plane had crashed.
As a result, NORAD's radar system is now being expanded to complement the FAA's nationwide coverage. No one will clearly identify the blind spots that were present on Sept. 11, nor will they say how far it has been widened.
Also being re-examined is the protocol over who can respond to domestic hijackings. Until Sept 11, law enforcement handled hijackings, and the military responded only when asked and approved by the top brass.
It created a situation where military commanders had to improvise, and Toledo played right into that scenario that sunny Tuesday morning.
The base was not assigned to NORAD's regular defense network - meaning it was not supposed to even expect a call for help, military officials said.
But, with about three dozen pilots and 20 F-16s, the 180th offered the right personnel and location to intercept and, if ordered, shoot down any hijacked airliners that strayed into the Midwest.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
Comments
The gov could end this by releasing all the video from that they took from any camera near by.
I don't have a problem with people questioning the gov'ts actions in response to 9/11. Even questioning their actions leading up to that terrible day. What I don't understand is people insatiable need to find a conspiracy in it. The real story is horrid enough, don't you think?
In answer to many people's inquiries about making information public: I agree with you, it would leave little room for conspiracy theories if there was 1000's of videos of the plane hitting the pentagon, much like the world trade center.
You have to understand that the pentagon is the most secure building in the united states, aside from the white house itself. You are not allowed to photograph the building, have a news camera even pointing at the thing under normal circumstances. There simply weren't any tourist cameras videographing the event, but there are rarely opportunities to record anything on the grounds.
Also, part of the reason we haven't gotten more information as to the aftermath, the damage, etc is also because it is a secure building. This is the epicenter of our armed forces. Much like we don't see pictures of our bases on the news when they are hit by bombs in afghanistan and iraq, you won't see much in terms of detailed evidence in the wake of the 9/11 attack.
All of the attacks on 9/11 were tragic, but the attack on the pentagon was handled differently because of the nature of the building. I hope for some of you this helps clear up all of the misinformation and rumor you may find online about this particular event.
who said you're not allowed to photograph the pentagon? how would they stop you? there's a gas station and a hotel which both had cameras pointing towards the pentagon that had their tapes confiscated right after the building was hit...they show us the towers being hit over and over and over...yet we're not allowed to see the pentagon?
this isn't directed at you necessarily, but i'm still waiting on a reply as to how a KNOWN hijacked plane made a u-turn, flew thru dc's no-fly zone, made another u-turn...all this over 1 1/2 hours after the first tower was hit and no military were ever scrambled...why did cheney wait until right before the pentagon was hit to give the order?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I'm wondering if you have ever had a chance to visit DC? Its a beautiful city, lots to see and do, you should come out this way if you ever have the opportunity.
Having not seen the area (which I am making the assumption that you haven't), I suppose I should try to explain the area a bit better.
The pentagon is an armed building, with lots of security partoling the premisis. You cannot simply walk into the building, or even close to it without proper identification. If you are a tourist or visitor standing within eyeshot of the pentagon with a video camera, security will approach you and ask you to stop. Local news coverage even needs special permission to do a live shot from the pentagon, because there is so much sensitive information and personel that pass through that building every day.
Yes, there were security camera's in both the gas station and the hotel, for their own security, I do not believe that they were pointed at the pentagon (although I do believe that some of the background may have included video of the plane). This is controlled, and for security to those establishments, that is why it exists.
The point I was trying to make was that unlike the World Trade Center, which is a privately owned, commercial building, the pentagon has been one of the most highly secure buildings in the country. That is why you won't see alot of private video's of the buildings. That is why the attack on the pentagon is treated differently from a "right to know" perspective.
As far as the plane getting shot down, making the order, etc. I really wish I understood that myself. Pre-9/11, the thought of shooting down a passanger airliner was unthinkable. we all got a tough lesson that day. I would imagine that even our gov't officals would have had to hesitate for a moment given the magnitude of the attacks that day. Hindsight being 20/20, I would imagine that our officals wish they had shot that plane down. But at that time, on that day, its hard to say. The entire area is highly congested as well, so shooting a plane down would likely have caused deaths beyond those on the plane. Its a big question, but I think we'd all know the answer if a plane would be hijacked today.
You mentioned the "no fly zone" over DC. It is possible that there was some thought that the plane may have intended to land at National Airport, which is only a stones throw away from the pentagon. While the airspace is controlled, moreso now than pre 9/11, there is a lot of commercial airliner traffic that comes in and out of that airspace on a daily basis. It is not as though the presence of a passanger plane in the airspace over DC was a totally unmistakable sign. Wasn't sure if you knew about National Airport being so close.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
this is the only video I have seen. a plane can not be clearly seen and I think because it was moving too fast and the camera couldnt actually catch a clear shot even in one frame.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12818225/
I still have no doubt that a plane did in fact hit the building. too many people saw it with their own eyes.
I would assume that there are camera's outside and in the surrounding areas of the pentagon. The reason those would not be released is simple; its classified information.
There is all kinds of red tape surrounding any type of sensitive information in our gov't. Perhaps they haven't been relesased due to "ongoing criminal investigations", because the footgage could be used for propaganda, etc.
I'm not saying its right, but if you understand how classified information becomes declassified throughout history, it is not an instantaneous event, nor is it often one that is taken with haste due to public demand.
Again, thats whats different about the pentagon. The footage you saw of the world trade centers being hit was for the most part private party, or live news coverage of a public building in NY, not a secure one in DC.
Yes. That was stated often, in combination with a more vague "ongoing criminal investigation". That could be tied to folks at guantanamo or elsewhere I would think.
why, at the PENTAGON, (surely one of, if not THEE most heavily guarded and monitored buildings in the country), did only one little shitty camera get footage of the "accident"---??
"eyewitnesses" who "saw" a flying object hit the building---
what were they doing at the pentagon? i would guess that there aren't too many people who are allowed to just "hang out" around there. so if they are government employees, well...
any unofficial conspirators have the answers?
peace
lz
--Bill Hicks
Did you read all of the posts? Both of those have already been addressed. Its really none of your concern what my sister was doing in the area, certainly not a reason to consider her a potential conspirator. That is laughable!!
glad you can laugh about it.
--Bill Hicks
Well, I do find your statement amusing. The fact that you would go so far as to imply that any eyewitnesses there at the pentagon that day are co-conspirators is rediculous.
Peace, I'm off to the beach.
actually i lived in northern virginia, 30 min south of dc for over 2 decades of my life....you really should work on those assumptions
the metro is right there next to the pentagon, i'm sure if you walk around being obvious about it someone will come out and say something to you...but having grown up there in the area i've taken plenty of pics outside the pentagon, i've even been inside it when i was a seasonal hire while in college during the summers.
you are confusing things, it wasn't just the authority to shoot down planes that was taken away from norad, it was the authority to do ANYTHING, even just scrambling jets and intercepting it.
as for thinking it might land at national...no...it was known to be a hijacked plane, 2 hijacked planes hit the world trade center towers starting 1 1/2 hours before that...you honestly think they thought gee, they already hit 2 buildings, maybe this time they will just land? ha!
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I wasn't making an assumption, that is why I asked if you'd ever been here, because you seemed to know so little about the security around the pentagon. There is a difference between asking a question and making an assumption
There were jets scrambled, where there not?
I could not possibly know what the powers that be were thinking on that day, just throwing some toughts around. Post 9/11 I am certain that the planes would have been shot down, but alot has changed in our collective mindset since 9/11.
jets were scrambled, but very late. jets had been scrabled hundreds of times the years before 9/11 when planes went off course or didn't respond...
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Ok, I'm done discussing this with you now. You clearly aren't seeking truth, but rather looking to make any statement to further the debate, even if you correct your lies and mistruths in your very next statement
Air support should have been sent long before they were, I believe it was something like a 90 min. gap between when the planes were hijacked and when the Pentagon was hit. They already knew about the hijacking/attacks of the planes in New York, why on Earth did it take so long to get things going when you knew that these planes were going to be used as missles
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
dont think thats essentially true..
CLAIM: "It has been standard operating procedures for decades to immediately intercept off-course planes that do not respond to communications from air traffic controllers," says the Web site oilempire.us. "When the Air Force 'scrambles' a fighter plane to intercept, they usually reach the plane in question in minutes."
FACT: In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999. With passengers and crew unconscious from cabin decompression, the plane lost radio contact but remained in transponder contact until it crashed. Even so, it took an F-16 1 hour and 22 minutes to reach the stricken jet. Rules in effect back then, and on 9/11, prohibited supersonic flight on intercepts. Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ). "Until 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ," FAA spokesman Bill Schumann tells PM. After 9/11, NORAD and the FAA increased cooperation, setting up hotlines between ATCs and NORAD command centers, according to officials from both agencies. NORAD has also increased its fighter coverage and has installed radar to monitor airspace over the continent.
i presume it takes a huge chain of commands to be made to enable a fighter jet pilot to shot down a plane full of his own countrymen, women and children... they have to be bang on the money identifiying the plane wouldnt they? 100% with no doubts certain they were bringing down the right plane... its easy to say "they should have brought it down" without knowing the full chain of events that goes into that thinking... i mean, were american pilots specifically trained pre-911 to shot down airplanes containing innocent US civilians (and other nationalities) as well as young kids, old people, etc... thats a heavy emotional burden to bear, and maybe its a last resort scenario.... see how long it took them to find Payne Stewarts plane... and his transponder was on... without the transponder on, on this plane it'd be like trying to find a needle in a giant stack of needles!!
CLAIM: No fighter jets were scrambled from any of the 28 Air Force bases within close range of the four hijacked flights. "On 11 September Andrews had two squadrons of fighter jets with the job of protecting the skies over Washington D.C.," says the Web site emperors-clothes.com. "They failed to do their job." "There is only one explanation for this," writes Mark R. Elsis of StandDown.net. "Our Air Force was ordered to Stand Down on 9/11."
FACT: On 9/11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the contiguous 48 states. No computer network or alarm automatically alerted the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) of missing planes. "They [civilian Air Traffic Control, or ATC] had to pick up the phone and literally dial us," says Maj. Douglas Martin, public affairs officer for NORAD. Boston Center, one of 22 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times: at 8:37 am EST to inform NEADS that Flight 11 was hijacked; at 9:21 am to inform the agency, mistakenly, that Flight 11 was headed for Washington (the plane had hit the North Tower 35 minutes earlier); and at 9:41 am to (erroneously) identify Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 from Boston as a possible hijacking. The New York ATC called NEADS at 9:03 am to report that United Flight 175 had been hijacked--the same time the plane slammed into the South Tower. Within minutes of that first call from Boston Center, NEADS scrambled two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Mass., and three F-16s from Langley Air National Guard Base in Hampton, Va. None of the fighters got anywhere near the pirated planes.
Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When the hijackers turned off the planes' transponders, which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors. And NORAD's sophisticated radar? It ringed the continent, looking outward for threats, not inward. "It was like a doughnut," Martin says. "There was no coverage in the middle." Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats and NORAD wasn't prepared to track them.
so how were these fighters supposed to find the missing flights? also, if you shoot down a commercial airliner with all on board and then it ploughs into a fucking school killing 300 kids... then you have to weigh up a lot of options and opinions... human nature will hold you back purely on the basis of "odds"... what are the odds of this being the wrong plane... and a jet-pilot has shot down the wrong plane.... imagine the furore then!!!!!
what are you talking about? you started being a smartass, ASSUMING things...then you say you weren't assuming at all! but end the state ment re-enforcing it w/ "i even said i assumed" so you weren't assuming, you only assumed.....?
did you read anything i posted? did you read there were already 2 fighters patrolling long island when the first tower was hit, yet they weren't sent to the area until much later? how did you correct that?
"Long Island to Manhattan
Two F-15s flying off the coast of Long Island were not redeployed to Mahattan until after the second tower was hit. 3 "
"While Flights 11 and 175 were in the air, two F-15s were circling in a 150-mile chunk of air space off the coast of Long Island as ordered. Pilot Major Daniel Nash reported seeing a plume of smoke over Manhattan even though he was 70 miles away, and couldn't recall being told about the North Tower strike. After the second Tower was hit at 9:03, the pilots were ordered to head to Manhattan for combat air patrol, and they did that for the next four hours. 4"
plz, correct that! or this
"At 9:09, NORAD ordered Langley Air Force Base, in Hampden, Virginia, to put F-16s on battle stations alert. The order to scramble was not given until around 9:25. 6 At 9:30, the two and possibly three F-16s were finally airborne and en route to the Pentagon. 7 They were armed with Sidewinder missiles and authorized to shoot down civilian aircraft. At 9:49 the F-16s reached the Pentagon, around 15 minutes after the Pentagon strike. Simple calculations reveal that the F-16s could have reached the Pentagon before the assault, but also flew at an average of 24% of their top speeds.
At 10:01 AM the FAA ordered the 180th Fighter Wing out of Swanton, Ohio, to scramble F-16 fighters. 8 Unlike many other bases, Swanton had no fighters on stand-by alert status. Yet it managed to put jets in the air 16 minutes later."
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
exactly, see my post above this
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
that's interesting phrasing your source has there...
in the DECADE before...ie the 90's...well, what about the 2000's??
"It is standard operating procedure (SOP) to scramble jet fighters whenever a jetliner goes off course or radio contact with it is lost. Between September 2000 and June 2001, interceptors were scrambled 67 times. 1 In the year 2000 jets were scrambled 129 times. 2"
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
"At 10:01 AM the FAA ordered the 180th Fighter Wing out of Swanton, Ohio, to scramble F-16 fighters. 8 Unlike many other bases, Swanton had no fighters on stand-by alert status. Yet it managed to put jets in the air 16 minutes later."
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i think decade can be grammatically used to encompass 10 years prior to a given year... i.e. the decade prior to my birth year of 1974 would be 1963-1973... a decade is just 10 years of time... it doesnt have to end in a zero for it to be a decade.
i bet all of the above scrambling of jets happened off-shore, and searching for planes that had their transformers still on.. the 9/11 scrambling debacle show how grossly inept the govt was at being ready for such an event....
as i've previously posted:- Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When the hijackers turned off the planes' transponders, which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors. And NORAD's sophisticated radar? It ringed the continent, looking outward for threats, not inward. "It was like a doughnut," Martin says. "There was no coverage in the middle." Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats and NORAD wasn't prepared to track them
this is the size of the task ahead of them... 4500 identical blips of radar to find one plane.... mmmmm doughnuts!!!
no... he is at the top of the chain of command.... its not like he picks up the phone and calls the pilot himself... which would be a small chain of command... Cheney would call say Defense Secretary, he in turn would call USAF, who would then call some general somewhere who in turn would call the specific airbase commanders who in turn would raise the order to stand-by pilots..
this is a chain of command, you only highlighted who had the ultimate decision... thats a totally different thing
And, guarding the rest of the nation in the first chaotic minutes of the crisis: F-16s from Toledo.
Federal military officials recently confirmed that the 180th Fighter Wing - an Ohio Air National Guard unit based at Toledo Express Airport - was the first unit outside the East Coast to answer the Air Force's plea for immediate help.
And had the last hijacked plane continued west - or had any other hijacked plane headed across the heartland - the Toledo fighter wing was the only unit immediately available to carry out the ultimate act: Shoot it down.
"They had the fuel. They had guns. That's what was needed," said retired Lt. Col. Alan Scott, who has been analyzing the air responses for the Air Force.
Three months after the worst terrorist attack in America's history, new details are emerging about the frenzied minutes from the time the first plane hit the World Trade Center to the time the nation had grounded every civilian plane in the sky.
The man responsible for coordinating the air defense strategy over the hard-hit area - Lt. Col. Robert Marr - confirmed to The Blade last week that the Toledo unit played a critical role as the nation's military geared up for any more attacks.
"It just had a phenomenal response on Sept. 11," Colonel Marr said from his command post in Rome, N.Y.
The new details also reveal a key weakness in the nation's air defense system on Sept. 11 - a weakness that left the interior of the nation more vulnerable.
Up until that day, the military's radar trackers had a Cold War posture of looking outside America's borders for threatening invaders. Those radars were positioned along the continental coasts, leaving blind spots in America's interior.
That meant the military was forced to rely on civilian air traffic controllers at the Federal Aviation Administration to detect what was in the skies - something they're now trying to fix.
"We're working very hard in trying to achieve an interior look," said Colonel Scott, now an Air Force consultant, whose first briefing of the issue was broadcast on C-Span last week.
Toledo's response on Sept. 11 is believed to be the first time the unit has answered a call from the North American Aerospace Defense Command, or NORAD - the special U.S. and Canadian military agency that scans the skies around the continent watching for any kind of invaders, from nuclear missiles to foreign fighter jets.
A former commander of the Toledo fighter wing, Lt. Col. Gary Chudzinsk, said the local base has always been aware that it could be alerted to such crises "but you just don't expect it."
"In [my] 31 years, I've never heard of that happening," said the lieutenant colonel, who retired seven years ago.
But with the hijackers striking the nation's vital spots, military officials say they were forced to call Toledo and other units to protect America's interior.
To be sure, the nation was in a deep peace on the morning of Sept. 11. Only 14 military jets were on alert at seven locations at 8 a.m. EST - all along the country's borders, according to the briefing.
Additionally, the people who monitor America's radar system - the Federal Aviation Administration - were not poised for what was about to unfold.
The trouble began at 8:20 a.m., when the first hijacked airliner, American Airlines Flight 11, turned off its transponder, an electronic device that tells the FAA the plane's location.
Twenty minutes later - after the plane veered off course - FAA officials alerted the North East Air Defense Sector based in Rome, N.Y., of the possible hijacking. Six minutes later, the plane crashed into the trade center.
At that same time, the military response began. The sector commander, Colonel Marr, ordered two Massachusetts-based F-15 fighter jets to prepare for takeoff. In six minutes - considered a quick response time - the jets left for New York, closing the 153-mile gap at speeds of 950 mph.
They were eight minutes too late to catch the second plane's crash into the trade center, but they set up an air patrol of the city to catch any other potential hijacked planes.
Within a few minutes, hijackers took control of the third plane as it crossed the southern tip of Ohio, turning it around toward Washington. A military transport plane in the area told the FAA it was flying low and fast, prompting air traffic controllers to call the Rome, N.Y., command center.
Two jets were scrambled for takeoff, and within six minutes they embarked on a 100-mile journey from Langley Air Force base in southeastern Virginia to Washington. But the third plane crashed into the Pentagon as the jets were 12 minutes away.
Then, a fourth plane deviated from its westward flight path and circled counter-clockwise around the western Cleveland suburbs, prompting another call from the FAA to Rome, N.Y., command center.
By 10:01 a.m., the command center began calling several bases across the country for help. That included a phone call to Toledo's 1,000-member 180th Fighter Wing.
At 10:17 a.m., according to the briefing, Toledo's fighter jets took off, heading east.
"They basically just took aircraft that were just being set up for training missions and launched out to help defend the skies over North America, wherever they could," Colonel Marr said. "[The response was] very, very, very quick."
By then, President Bush had issued an order to shoot down that fourth plane before it hit any potential targets, and the jets in Washington were still circling.
It's unclear what role Toledo's jets played before they were joined by Air National Guard jets from Syracuse at 10:44 a.m. The fourth plane crashed into a western Pennsylvania hillside sometime between 10:02 and 10:10 a.m., officials say.
Toledo Air Guard officials declined to talk about the events that morning, even in general terms permitted by the military.
Lt. Col. Carole Allen - the base spokeswoman - said personnel were still grieving over the unexpected death of their 44-year-old commander of operations, Pete Raffa, who died seven days ago of a heart attack.
But, in explaining their mission, Colonel Marr said the Toledo jets "never had a track close enough that they were directed to engage."
"[But] if a valid direction had come from the appropriate level to engage a target, or shoot down a target at some time, they could have done that," he said.
And, at the time, military and civilian officials were scrambling to land all the other commercial planes in the air during the crisis - plus sort out more than a dozen false reports of additional hijackings.
"By the time [Toledo's jets] got in the air, all those four [hijacked planes] were down," Colonel Marr said. "The problem was, we didn't know those were only the four."
Another problem was that military commanders were never fully able to track all hijacked jetliners. The third flight - the one that hit the Pentagon - left NORAD's radar system shortly before it crossed the southern tip of Ohio.
That left the military relying on the FAA, which has no authority to direct military defense.
Complicating matters: Until the Sept. 11 attacks, the military relied on the FAA to ask for help before the Defense Department took action in a potential hijacking. The civilian agency, initially, was late calling key events:
Eleven minutes after American Airlines Flight 11 crashed into the trade center, the FAA formally notified the military the airplane had crashed. Until then, the responding fighter jets did not know the plane had crashed.
It took three minutes after United Airlines Flight 175 crashed into the trade center for the FAA to report it had been hijacked. It took an additional six minutes for the FAA to formally report the plane had crashed.
As a result, NORAD's radar system is now being expanded to complement the FAA's nationwide coverage. No one will clearly identify the blind spots that were present on Sept. 11, nor will they say how far it has been widened.
Also being re-examined is the protocol over who can respond to domestic hijackings. Until Sept 11, law enforcement handled hijackings, and the military responded only when asked and approved by the top brass.
It created a situation where military commanders had to improvise, and Toledo played right into that scenario that sunny Tuesday morning.
The base was not assigned to NORAD's regular defense network - meaning it was not supposed to even expect a call for help, military officials said.
But, with about three dozen pilots and 20 F-16s, the 180th offered the right personnel and location to intercept and, if ordered, shoot down any hijacked airliners that strayed into the Midwest.