well stated

El_Kabong

beetle wrote:

you've restated what i have said, as for my question toy you regarding israels right to exist?? any response, or was this a brush off???
(hope your enjoying the open debate as well as i am.)

well, you mistated it to an extent.

sharon's visit was approved, but there was never any mention of arriving w/ 1,000 armed men

'Because Jews do not normally visit the Temple Mount except as tourists and because Sharon made his visit accompanied by 1,000 soldiers during a delicate part of the peace process, Sharon has been criticized for trying to provoke a Palestinian reaction that would undermine the peace process.

Palestinians term their demonstrations and attacks the "al-Aqsa Intifada," in the name of the mosque on the Haram al-Sharif and state that the Intifada is fueled by frustration over continued Israeli occupation of the majority of the West Bank and parts of the Gaza Strip.'

the violence didn't break out until a day or 2 after his visit

about your question that you asked someone else...of course we support israel's right to exist within reason. being it should be fair, not taking the best parts whenever you feel like it and keeping ppl living under your boot heel and gun. their economy is all but destroyed b/c of israel's actions.

hailhailkc

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

We do not live in Iran or Syria. Do you think our government should conduct itself to the same standards as your examples?

Why do you overlook the fact that Israel are acting like bullies and pushing around those who have hardly any defense it all? Please don't bring up religion with me. The whole world is not christian and nor should we have to live by your scripture. These people are living in land that they inhabited first. They don't believe the land was promised to the jews so why should they just go along with the forced removal from their homeland? What if Arabs came and pushed you out of your home and then told you you could have the back corner of your backyard but thats it? What if they told you it was promised to them by Allah? What if all you had was a gun to defend yourself and they had a tanks, many guns and a helicopter w/ guns on it? Can you just imagine for one momnet how that must feel?

Not living in a country has never stopped you from voicing your opinion on it's actions before, why should that stop you now? After all, you're voicing your opinion on the Isreal / Lebanon situation…and none of us live there either. I don't understand the outcry towards Israel while avoiding the outcry towards other nations. I don't think Israel is acting like a bully, I think Hamas and Hezbollah are acting like the bullies. I think Israel acts in self defense. Besides, unlike Hezbollah and Hamas, the IDF targets military infrastructure and equipment / headquarters. Do they sometimes kill innocents? Yes. Do they purposefully target them like Hezbollah? No. Quite the difference if you ask me. After all, if these lives are so valuable, why would you side with a group of individuals who fire rockets into the neighborhoods of innocent people, regardless of how few tanks or planes they have available to them, or how little money or wealth they have? Those people are living in a land that the Jews inhabited first, so why should Israel have to give it up? And to ask religion to be taken out of the question is absurd, because the WHOLE conflict is based upon religion, not just land. The Jews DO believe the land was promised to them, why should they leave or give up their land? The whole world isn't non Christian either, so I shouldn't have to live by your values either. I'll talk about whatever I choose. Israel have given more land to the Arabs than is necessary…so…why haven't the Arabs ever accepted the terms presented to them in order to form their own nation? I'll tell you why, because it's not all about land. It's about destroying Israel as a nation. That's why Israel has to respond with such force. If they don't, they will just be destroyed. Iran's leader even said so. You can't expect them to sit there and give up prisoner for prisoner, or else Hezbollah will just keep doing the same thing in order to get their prisoners back. You can't give in to these terrorists. You can't negotiate, or more of the same will continue to happen.

RockinInCanada

beemster wrote:

They were attacked, they have the right to defend themselves, Lebanon obviously supports Hezbollah, so they have made themselves a target.

And for one second you don't think they went a little overboard...and how does 18% of the country (the exact proportion Hezbollah has seats in the Lebanon parliament) make the ENTIRE country a target...I guess to your logic the the other 82% don't matter...its overboard and its sickening some people here see it as okay...yeah its totally cowardly to kidnap two soldiers...but to bring your entire military to the country as a reprimand is fucking ridiculous....Im sorry you cannot see how overboard this reaction is....

beetle

about your question that you asked someone else...of course we support israel's right to exist within reason. being it should be fair, not taking the best parts whenever you feel like it and keeping ppl living under your boot heel and gun. their economy is all but destroyed b/c of israel's actions.[/quote]



...israel taking the best parts???, last i checked israel lacks israel is surrounded by oil rich nations, or should i say the leaders of those nations are oil rich while they let their people live like peasants, israel on the other hand was handed a baron land and has made such strives in 50plus years of existense that i sense some jealousy, but who am i to say...

mammasan

beemster wrote:

They were attacked, they have the right to defend themselves, Lebanon obviously supports Hezbollah, so they have made themselves a target.

Actually you are mistaken. Syria and Iran support Hizbollah, not Lebanon. The Lebanese recently removed the pro-Syrian government and elected a more pro-western government. So no the Lebanese government does not support Hizbollah. Maybe you should get the facts straight before condemning innocent civilians to non-stop bombings.

rebornFixer

Now you're just recycling old material, dude. Don't turn your commentary into a Creed concert. Take a breather or something. Bulldozers and Rachel? I think you and I debated this topic 2 years ago!

rebornFixer

mammasan wrote:

Actually you are mistaken. Syria and Iran support Hizbollah, not Lebanon. The Lebanese recently removed the pro-Syrian government and elected a more pro-western government. So no the Lebanese government does not support Hizbollah. Maybe you should get the facts straight before condemning innocent civilians to non-stop bombings.

Good points, although the response could be that the Lebanese government hasn't done anything about Hezbollah, who controls about as much Lebanese territory as said government does. Sure, they'll tell you that they don't support militant groups, but their behavior suggests a certain amount of avoiding the problem, if not outright collaboration (which is now coming home to roost, big time). This government's hands are tied, in that the huge Shi'ite population in the country would probably balk if the Lebanese military took action against Hezbollah (gotta stick up for those terrorists!) ... They could, however, ask for UN help with the matter, or at the very least, the Lebanese military could secure the border with Israel.

I do NOT agree with the Israel response of attacking civilian Lebanese targets in Beirut or other areas where Hezbollah isn't likely to be. Just doing a little Devil's advocate. Is there anything Lebanon needs to change here?

rebornFixer

hailhailkc wrote:

or perhaps its more deep seeded than that. Like the fact that the United States supports Israel, etc.

Yeah, its funny. When someone on the right has this much of a hard-on for bashing one specific country (or religion), they get accused of being racist or otherwise prejudiced against one group of people. But amongst leftist ranks, it flies as some sort of justified response to the horrors of capitalist/fascist/American-backed regimes.

mammasan

reborncareerist wrote:

Good points, although the response could be that the Lebanese government hasn't done anything about Hezbollah, who controls about as much Lebanese territory as said government does. Sure, they'll tell you that they don't support militant groups, but their behavior suggests a certain amount of avoiding the problem, if not outright collaboration (which is now coming home to roost, big time). This government's hands are tied, in that the huge Shi'ite population in the country would probably balk if the Lebanese military took action against Hezbollah (gotta stick up for those terrorists!) ... They could, however, ask for UN help with the matter, or at the very least, the Lebanese military could secure the border with Israel.

I do NOT agree with the Israel response of attacking civilian Lebanese targets in Beirut or other areas where Hezbollah isn't likely to be. Just doing a little Devil's advocate. Is there anything Lebanon needs to change here?

I agree that Lebanese government needs to deal with Hizbollah and shouldn't be turning a blind eye to their existance. Maybe after what hasoccured they may take the initiate to crtack down on militant groups like Hizbollah. Also in their defense it was not until recently that the pro-Syrian government was removed from Lebanon. The new government needs time to secure it's place and support from the public before tackling a well funded group like Hizbollah. Further more I believe that Israel's response is aiding Hizbollah more than hurting it. You can't stop but think that this is exactly what Hizbollah had in mind when they kidnapped those two troops.

rebornFixer

mammasan wrote:

Further more I believe that Israel's response is aiding Hizbollah more than hurting it. You can't stop but think that this is exactly what Hizbollah had in mind when they kidnapped those two troops.

Yes. Yes, I think you're probably right. I have long believed that some of these terrorist groups actually support the killing of fellow Arabs, precisely because it fuels their ideology. Look at how many people are killed by their fellow citizens in Iraq, for example. They create scenarios where the "enemy" (be it Israel, the U.S., non-Muslims, etc.) kills or appears to kill their own people, and then reap the benefits in terms of new recruits, increased hatred, etc. Hezbollah has long used the Lebanese as a human shield, and various Palestinian factions used their own as a shield during the Infantida.

thankyougrandma

reborncareerist wrote:

Yes. Yes, I think you're probably right. I have long believed that some of these terrorist groups actually support the killing of fellow Arabs, precisely because it fuels their ideology. Look at how many people are killed by their fellow citizens in Iraq, for example. They create scenarios where the "enemy" (be it Israel, the U.S., non-Muslims, etc.) kills or appears to kill their own people, and then reap the benefits in terms of new recruits, increased hatred, etc. Hezbollah has long used the Lebanese as a human shield, and various Palestinian factions used their own as a shield during the Infantida.

So why does the Israeli govt. ignore that and just play that game with a terrorist organisation? Not only playing that game, but playing it ten times harder, they are punishing the wrong peoples. It's bad for everyone in this region, i mean for every civillians.

rebornFixer

thankyougrandma wrote:

So why does the Israeli govt. ignore that and just play that game with a terrorist organisation? Not only playing that game, but playing it ten times harder, they are punishing the wrong peoples. It's bad for everyone in this region, i mean for every civillians.

I know, it doesn't make tons of sense. I mean, there are times when I believe that the IDF must take appropriate action. But this Lebanon thing is an example where they are simply making a terrible mistake. Lebenese who had more or less nothing to do with Hezbollah and their ideology of hatred are going to hate Israel now, because they lost family members. What should Israel do differently, I guess is the question. Some kind of balance has to be struck between fighting terrorism while minimizing civilian casualties. If that means letting militants get away but leaving civilians alive, you know what, I'd do it. It would suck ass in some ways, and I'd worry about more Israelis dying later. But the alternative to is make new enemies while bolstering terrorist ideology, not to mention staining one's own morality by killing civilians.
Where is Mossad? Are they hunting Hezbollah as we speak, or are the Isrealis just using brute force in a case where surgical precision would work? Maybe I am naive, I am not a military commander.