can they really not pay you?

El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
edited November 2006 in A Moving Train
they recently changed how you clock in and out at my work, no more scanning your hand but using badges now...they gave out something explaining the new rules and one part caught my eye and seems very wrong...i don't know how they can do this...

"The system has been set up w/ rounding limits. The rounds are as follows:

Overtime worked before the associates scheduled shift will be rounded to the nearest 1/2 hour.

Example: Associate works 8:00am - 5:00pm. They clock in at 7:31 the clock will round to 8:00, however if they clock at 7:30 the clock pays from 7:30. If the associate clocks in at 6:05am the clock pays from 6:30."

is that really 'the nearest 1/2 hour'? when i was taught rounding i wasn't taught you round 31 to 40, you round it down to 30. so wouldn't the nearest 1/2 hour from 7:31 be 7:30??
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
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Comments

  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    I dont see anything wrong with that. if you are supposed to be there at 730, then get there at 730. if you are there at 731, you are late. too bad.

    but yea they could have worded it differently.

    like........ "if you are late, you wont get paid, if you dont like it, find a new job, and have a nice day."
  • a half hour seems a bit extreme. I've seen it rounded to the 15 minutes or 1/10 of an hour.

    My question is, if you clock out at 5:05 PM, do they pay you until 5:30?
    My whole life
    was like a picture
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    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I dont see anything wrong with that. if you are supposed to be there at 730, then get there at 730. if you are there at 731, you are late. too bad.


    but then why not pay you from 7:31 instead of you working 29 min of overtime for free? why not give you a tardy or something instead? if i got there at 7:31 i'd say fuck it and just wait till 8
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    a half hour seems a bit extreme. I've seen it rounded to the 15 minutes or 1/10 of an hour.

    My question is, if you clock out at 5:05 PM, do they pay you until 5:30?


    no, clocking OUT has to exceed 15 min past your time. so if i clocked out at 14 min past my set time i wouldn't get paid for it, but anything after that first 15 min clocks you out at that time.
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • Staceb10Staceb10 Posts: 675
    Is that how they explained it? I've seen it rounded to 1/4 hour but not that big of a difference.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    El_Kabong wrote:
    but then why not pay you from 7:31 instead of you working 29 min of overtime for free? why not give you a tardy or something instead? if i got there at 7:31 i'd say fuck it and just wait till 8


    because you are required to be there at a certain time. technically you can get fired for being late. the company doesnt owe you shit if you cant do whats required.

    but yea fuck it, if you dont get caught, wait until 8.
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    Staceb10 wrote:
    Is that how they explained it? I've seen it rounded to 1/4 hour but not that big of a difference.


    this is what the sheet they gave out says...i copied it word for word...well, the only change i made was typing 'w/' instead of 'with'
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    jlew24asu wrote:
    because you are required to be there at a certain time. technically you can get fired for being late. the company doesnt owe you shit if you cant do whats required.

    but yea fuck it, if you dont get caught, wait until 8.


    no, i'm required to be there at the time my agreed schedule is...if i come in to work overtime that is my choice, i'm not required to work overtime at any specific time
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    El_Kabong wrote:
    no, i'm required to be there at the time my agreed schedule is...if i come in to work overtime that is my choice, i'm not required to work overtime at any specific time


    O ok. I missed that. then yea its bullshit. I'm with ya. but you should still be on time. if you happen to miss it by a few mintues, maybe for reasons you couldnt control, wait till 8.
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    I worked at a place that did that, but only in 15 minute increments, not a half hour, which seems like a long time. And the same bullshit at the end of the day, where you'd have to work all the way until 6:15 to get paid. So if I was two minutes late for some reason, I smoked another cigarette and waited until the other 13 minutes had gone by before I clocked in, and if I had to stay 5 minutes late I'd make sure my work lasted for at least 15 minutes ... no way was I clocking out at 6:14!
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    it prob comes down to how the overtime is set up. I worked at a factory a couple summers where anything over 8 hours a day is automatically time and a half. I could see how the company could be getting worked a bit if people would clock in at 745 then hang out or not do much before work started at 8. 15 minutes a day would add up over a year. But yeah, they can do that, they make the rules...but it does suck. And if you're not required to work overtime the company prob wants to make sure that if you're gonna get paid for overtime, you actually do a substantial amount of work for the overtime.
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  • The can really not pay you, unless you have a contract stating otherwise. If they're "rounding up" your time, just don't work that time. So if they'd take 29 minutes from you for showing up at 7:31, tell them to not expect you to start working until 8.
  • It's illegal, and MANY businesses set up their timecard/pay rules in an illegal manner. Very few, if any, employees ever actually do anything about it, other then to vent to each other.

    Hourly employees must be compensated for the time that they actually work. An employer cannot simply dictate that because they set up their timecard system to "round" up or down that an employee will not be paid.

    If you punch in at 5:01 and go to work, the employer cannot legally start paying you at 5:30 - giving them 29 free minutes of your labor.

    If you're late, your employer can reprimand you, dock your pay for the time missed, or even fire you, but CANNOT - under any circumstance - get free labor from you.
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  • chromiamchromiam Posts: 4,114
    most people are missing the big picture here... this has to do with overtime, not regular work hours. Most companies view overtime as a privledge and don't have to offer it to you. In this case you clock in at 7:31 and then wait till 8 to start working, nothing lost, nothing gained.
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  • I don't understand in todays world why they even round anyway. If it's a small company that uses time cards and adds up the time manually, i can see how dividing the hours up by quarters or something makes life easier, but if it's all computer tracked, why can they use the actual time?
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • pjny wrote:
    It's illegal, and MANY businesses set up their timecard/pay rules in an illegal manner. Very few, if any, employees ever actually do anything about it, other then to vent to each other.

    Hourly employees must be compensated for the time that they actually work. An employer cannot simply dictate that because they set up their timecard system to "round" up or down that an employee will not be paid.

    If you punch in at 5:01 and go to work, the employer cannot legally start paying you at 5:30 - giving them 29 free minutes of your labor.

    This is false. It is not illegal to round timecards so long as the rounding works both ways (up and down). Furthermore, it is not illegal to implement these kind of schemes to discourage people from working optional overtime, which from the sound of it is the case here.
    If you're late, your employer can reprimand you, dock your pay for the time missed, or even fire you, but CANNOT - under any circumstance - get free labor from you.

    This is basically true. Employers are not allowed to extract hourly labor from you at no pay. But significance plays a roll here. If a rounding system docks you out of $5 a year, no one is going to consider that claim any more than they'd consider a claim made by an employer if you spend 10 minutes of your day fucking around with your friends instead of working.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    i just watched office space last night, i can see kabong stealing the clock-in machine and smashing it in a field while the ghetto boys play in the background
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    my2hands wrote:
    i just watched office space last night, i can see kabong stealing the clock-in machine and smashing it in a field while the ghetto boys play in the background


    I've done that.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I've done that.

    stop lying, you had michael bolton playing ;)
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    chopitdown wrote:
    it prob comes down to how the overtime is set up. I worked at a factory a couple summers where anything over 8 hours a day is automatically time and a half. I could see how the company could be getting worked a bit if people would clock in at 745 then hang out or not do much before work started at 8. 15 minutes a day would add up over a year. But yeah, they can do that, they make the rules...but it does suck. And if you're not required to work overtime the company prob wants to make sure that if you're gonna get paid for overtime, you actually do a substantial amount of work for the overtime.


    thinking more about it i guess they can do it b/c i, and the others, have the option to not work there...so as long as it is STATED company policy they can do it. like the law, ignorance is not a defense.

    i just don't like how they did it...like they didn't say anything until friday and then all they said was you have to clock in/out at a badge relay, the hand scan will no longer track time altho you will still need to use it to get in the door <but i understand a badge relay goes a lot quicker than having to enter your last 4 of your ssn, hit enter, scan your hand, open the door, close it...before anyone else can use it> the badge relays don't have any sort of time on it... so i have no idea what time it's recording. at least w/ the handscan it tells you the time it recorded...the relay just flashes from red to green. but how do i know what time it's recording? i've worked at places where SAP's time was different than the time on the computer, which was different from the computer next to it, which was different than the clocks on the wall...

    so, after that brief mention on friday saying to use the relay started w/ 3rd shift on sunday nothing was said until yesterday <wednesday> when they handed out a 5 pages of the new time rules and told everyone to sign a paper saying they understood it. the guy tried to give me crap b/c i said i wouldn't sign until later...how can i say i understand it if i haven't even had a chance to read it?? no one would have a contract shoved in their hands and just sign it. he tried to say 'you use your badge instead of the hand scan, it's not complicated!' but obvioulsy it must be if it takes them 5 pages just to say that. a lot of ppl seemed to just glance at it and forget about it as everyone i showed that provision to seemed surprised by it.

    as for the overtime...that's complicated...for certain areas overtime is mandatory. some have mandatory overtime 5 days a week, some areas have it every weekend, where i work i am only obligated to work 'some time' every other weekend. i don't have a set time to be there like other areas do for ot, i can come in whenever i want and stay over whenever i want as long as there's work to do.

    if they're worried about ppl getting overtime for nothing, and i can understand that, a lot of times i see the guy who works teh shift before me hanging around doing nothing...just racking up ot for sitting in the breakroom and watching tv, that should be managements role to handle that.

    at least make it more widely known than burying it in 5 pages and expecting everyone to see it. when the execs think something's important enough for us to know they tell us, i think this qualifies, too.
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    my2hands wrote:
    i just watched office space last night, i can see kabong stealing the clock-in machine and smashing it in a field while the ghetto boys play in the background


    pc load letter????? what the fuck does that mean!?!?
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    El_Kabong wrote:
    pc load letter????? what the fuck does that mean!?!?


    classic!
  • hey kabong, does your company use ADP EZ labor? this is the same bullshit that happens at my work, except its 15 minute increments, not 30.

    you know some consulting dickhead gave the company the advice to set up the clock-in/out this way and showed how it would save the firm a bunch of money.
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    El_Kabong wrote:
    pc load letter????? what the fuck does that mean!?!?

    LOL...i just got done fighting with our copier at work...I won, just barely.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • Urban HikerUrban Hiker Posts: 1,312
    It is not illegal to round timecards so long as the rounding works both ways (up and down).


    That's how it works in WA state

    http://www.lni.wa.gov/WorkplaceRights/files/policies/esd1.pdf

    Follow the link & see pages 5 & 6
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  • That's how it works in WA state

    http://www.lni.wa.gov/WorkplaceRights/files/policies/esd1.pdf

    Follow the link & see pages 5 & 6

    And that's exactly what I said. Rounding is permitted as long as the system rounds up as well as down (page 5). Furthermore, employers can prevent employees from clocking in early (page 5). Finally, significance plays an important role (page 4).
  • PaperPlatesPaperPlates Posts: 1,745
    chromiam wrote:
    most people are missing the big picture here... this has to do with overtime, not regular work hours. Most companies view overtime as a privledge and don't have to offer it to you. In this case you clock in at 7:31 and then wait till 8 to start working, nothing lost, nothing gained.

    He's right. Overtime isn't a right. And if they set up rules, no matter how stupid you think they are, you have two choices. Deal with their rules and get on with your job, or get a new job. At least you have a choice.

    Or you can get a job with abook. She comes and goes as she pleases, and they adore her for it. ;)
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  • pjny wrote:
    It's illegal, and MANY businesses set up their timecard/pay rules in an illegal manner. Very few, if any, employees ever actually do anything about it, other then to vent to each other.

    Hourly employees must be compensated for the time that they actually work. An employer cannot simply dictate that because they set up their timecard system to "round" up or down that an employee will not be paid.

    If you punch in at 5:01 and go to work, the employer cannot legally start paying you at 5:30 - giving them 29 free minutes of your labor.

    If you're late, your employer can reprimand you, dock your pay for the time missed, or even fire you, but CANNOT - under any circumstance - get free labor from you.
    I'm guessing this may vary by state but as an accountant in Utah I can verify that this is true. pjny is right on. Many people just let the company shit on them when in fact what the company is doing is illegal. I'd recommend you contact the Department of Workforce Services for whatever state you live in and see what they have to say about it. My guess is that they're just trying to bully some free labor out of you which is very likely illegal.
  • He's right. Overtime isn't a right. And if they set up rules, no matter how stupid you think they are, you have two choices. Deal with their rules and get on with your job, or get a new job. At least you have a choice.

    Or you can get a job with abook. She comes and goes as she pleases, and they adore her for it. ;)
    But if someone works overtime it is absolutely illegal to not pay them. Sure if the company has a no-overtime policy or if they exceed stated overtime limits then they can be reprimanded or fired but they have to pay the employee for the time worked.
  • Its stories like these that make me glad I'm not an hourly employee. Of course that also means I don't get any overtime at all.
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