Next thing you know, we'll discover that Kucinich and Obama are actually in the same party - but that's a bunch of conspiracy mumbo-jumbo I'd rather not get started on right now.
Not hate government.....hate some of what it has become. There is obviously a need for governement involvment in many cases, just not every case.
The Dems have gone wrong by claiming that the government can solve everyone's problems...it can't and it shouldn't.
The Reps have gone wrong by allow government involvment in matters that certainly should be left up to individuals and in other cases allowing federal governement involvement in what shoulkd clearly be a State issue.
They both have expanded the government in their own way, and as it is extremely difficult to get rid of something once it has started the gov't got very large. Well, that's how I see it anyhow. I certainly don't share you sentiment that the government will work efficiently again if it is run by people that like big government.
I never said "big" government, I said effective government. We do need an understanding of where government can work and where it can't. However, I don't think we're getting a clear picture right now - mainly because we've had years in which people are trying to push government into areas where it can't work (regulating individual's personal lives, religiosity, nation building, etc.) and hamstringing it in areas where it can (social safety nets, environmental/corporate regulations, etc.)
I agree with both of these, mainly because there is synthesis, and both of you are seeing the same thing, basically. And I think very reasonably, realistically and accurately.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Next thing you know, we'll discover that Kucinich and Obama are actually in the same party - but that's a bunch of conspiracy mumbo-jumbo I'd rather not get started on right now.
They may be in the same party but imo, they are worlds apart. Kucinich is one of the only Dems I can see myself getting behind.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
is against the "war" in Iraq. He wants to end it, and bring the troops home.
Yes, he does want to keep a few there, just as we want to keep a few in Afghanistan, just as we still have a few in Kosovo and quite a few more in South Korea.
Yes, I got a little upset a few weeks ago when I heard a soundbite of Obama's that said he will leave all options on the table, in regards to Iran. But, hell, wouldn't you all too? If diplomacy (which Obama is good at, by the way), doesn't work....what then, God forbid?
Would you rather see McCain or Rudy in charge? Thompson? Hillary? Same old same old?
Sure, we'd all love a Kucinich in charge, but I'm sorry, folks...it ain't going to happen in 2008.
Senator Obama is not a NAFTA fan when it comes down to him seeing all our jobs go to other countries. He's no fan of Mujibar on the phone when we call for tech support any more than we are. He knows that it was Gore and Clinton who pushed NAFTA through and he knows the repercussions every time he visits Detroit, et al on the campaign trail. He's for bringing the jobs back home. He's for bringing our American cars up to date and up to demand by making them hybrids. He's for a lot of things you probably don't even know about yet.
Let's continue this discusion in December, shall we?
is against the "war" in Iraq. He wants to end it, and bring the troops home.
Yes, he does want to keep a few there, just as we want to keep a few in Afghanistan, just as we still have a few in Kosovo and quite a few more in South Korea.
Yes, I got a little upset a few weeks ago when I heard a soundbite of Obama's that said he will leave all options on the table, in regards to Iran. But, hell, wouldn't you all too? If diplomacy (which Obama is good at, by the way), doesn't work....what then, God forbid?
Would you rather see McCain or Rudy in charge? Thompson? Hillary? Same old same old?
Sure, we'd all love a Kucinich in charge, but I'm sorry, folks...it ain't going to happen in 2008.
Senator Obama is not a NAFTA fan when it comes down to him seeing all our jobs go to other countries. He's no fan of Mujibar on the phone when we call for tech support any more than we are. He knows that it was Gore and Clinton who pushed NAFTA through and he knows the repercussions every time he visits Detroit, et al on the campaign trail. He's for bringing the jobs back home. He's for bringing our American cars up to date and up to demand by making them hybrids. He's for a lot of things you probably don't even know about yet.
Let's continue this discusion in December, shall we?
thanks, Bu2!! only took 5 pages to get a real reply!!!
buuuut i'm not so sure i trust him on NAFTA...(i had a longer post but internet explorer crashed taking all my links :( ) but, according to bloomsberg one of obama's chief economic/trade advisors is Daniel Tarullo...he was a deputy director for international affairs under clinton and helped create NAFTA and get it pushed thru (yes, i'm aware nafta was trying to be approved under bush but wasn't, he helped w/ changes and whatnot), not only that but his law firm advised mexico on NAFTA
the worst part was that as little as 1-2 years ago this guy was arguing why we need to escalate the WTO!!!
it just seems one of his main men on trade and economics is such a rabid NAFTA/WTO supportoer...seems kinda contradictory
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
thanks, Bu2!! only took 5 pages to get a real reply!!!
buuuut i'm not so sure i trust him on NAFTA...(i had a longer post but internet explorer crashed taking all my links :( ) but, according to bloomsberg one of obama's chief economic/trade advisors is Daniel Tarullo...he was a deputy director for international affairs under clinton and helped create NAFTA and get it pushed thru (yes, i'm aware nafta was trying to be approved under bush but wasn't, he helped w/ changes and whatnot), not only that but his law firm advised mexico on NAFTA
the worst part was that as little as 1-2 years ago this guy was arguing why we need to escalate the WTO!!!
it just seems one of his main men on trade and economics is such a rabid NAFTA/WTO supportoer...seems kinda contradictory
This is news to me. I'd never heard of his connection to Obama before you posted this. I'm going to have to research for a little while and figure out how to place this in my "Obama for President" brain mode.
I will say that, having two cats, I'm very worried about the whole China gluten wheat and rice debacle -- hell, eating chicken and pork, I worry about humans, let alone animals!
I'll have to get back to you on this, kabong. But rest assured, I'll look into it.
i'm just wondering if NOCODE#1 is going to coming back to this thread and admit his error in judgement. maybe he confused you with someone else, Kabong? i'm definately confused.
Are you saying that the American population is too stupid to have known who the Speaker of the House would be when the Democrats took over?
And if the reason the Democrats took over is because they appeared more "conservative" than they really are, then why is it that the more conciliatory they are with conservatives and the Bush administration the more their poll numbers drop?
Starting with Reagan, and solidified in the 1994 election, the government has been largely run by people who hate government - or at least claim too. Consequently, the government has been doing terrible as far as social programs are concerned. It's a self fullfilling prophecy - and it will change as soon as people realize that the government can do things effectively just as it has done things effectively in the past.
1. no. congressional races are local. only 50 out of 435 are competitive, (i.e. within a 55 to 45 spread) so only 50 districts are deciding the swing...if you want to extrapolate those 50 districts and pretend that's the "will of the American" people, be my guest but
2. in thos 50 districts, Dems ran as conservatives...see the likes of heath shuler...in the senate guys like tester and webb. and the more bush agrees with cons his numbers drop? concrete example please? bush was 50-50 until immigration...which is another issue conservative dems ran on.
this just in, bush is a liberal republican. he was doing well in popularity until he pissed us off...you can believe it or not, but that's reality.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
1. no. congressional races are local. only 50 out of 435 are competitive, (i.e. within a 55 to 45 spread) so only 50 districts are deciding the swing...if you want to extrapolate those 50 districts and pretend that's the "will of the American" people, be my guest but
this just in, bush is a liberal republican. he was doing well in popularity until he pissed us off...you can believe it or not, but that's reality.
1. congressional races aren't always "local". case in point: 2006. exit polling indicates that iraq and the various gop scandals (abramoff, cunningham, delay, foley, torture, wiretapping, etc.) were the most important issues to the voters. that's national. lots of those polled probably "liked" their congressman to some extent, but bush's screwups and the general malaise in the republican party are the reasons why the "republican revolution" lasted only 12 years.
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
1. congressional races aren't always "local". case in point: 2006. exit polling indicates that iraq and the various gop scandals (abramoff, cunningham, delay, foley, torture, wiretapping, etc.) were the most important issues to the voters. that's national. lots of those polled probably "liked" their congressman to some extent, but bush's screwups and the general malaise in the republican party are the reasons why the "republican revolution" lasted only 12 years.
if only 50 congressional races out of 435 are competitive, how is that national? over 100 congressional races aren't even contested. incumbency reelection rates are at 98%....
so tell me...if 50 out of 435 races are competitive, tell me how that's representative of the "will of the people" ESPECIALLY when conservative democrats won those races. remember, liberals like pelosi went into hiding during the elections...they didn't go anywhere NEAR those close races. way i see it...the will of the people is saying we aren't giving it our all in Iraq and we are weak on the border.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
This is news to me. I'd never heard of his connection to Obama before you posted this. I'm going to have to research for a little while and figure out how to place this in my "Obama for President" brain mode.
I will say that, having two cats, I'm very worried about the whole China gluten wheat and rice debacle -- hell, eating chicken and pork, I worry about humans, let alone animals!
I'll have to get back to you on this, kabong. But rest assured, I'll look into it.
it's not just cat/dog food! i heard on cnn last week it's also in toothpaste and some cough medicine from china!!! (but does anyone buy toothpaste made in china? hell, actually i have no clue where mine was made...:D) kinda scary all the crap they keep saying they find toxic shit in our food/products
now, according to bloomberg they are just advisors, so maybe they aren't even advising him on those sections, i don't know, it just seems odd to have someone from citigroup and another w/ such strong nafta/wto connections advising you on anything
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i'm just wondering if NOCODE#1 is going to coming back to this thread and admit his error in judgement. maybe he confused you with someone else, Kabong? i'm definately confused.
no, the troll has disappeared, not the first time he's said that to me, either. i went back and searched for something in another obama thread and noticed he made the same accusation of my real motivations being i don't like that he's black...no reply in that thread, either :(
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
no, the troll has disappeared, not the first time he's said that to me, either. i went back and searched for something in another obama thread and noticed he made the same accusation of my real motivations being i don't like that he's black...no reply in that thread, either :(
if only 50 congressional races out of 435 are competitive, how is that national? over 100 congressional races aren't even contested. incumbency reelection rates are at 98%....
so tell me...if 50 out of 435 races are competitive, tell me how that's representative of the "will of the people" ESPECIALLY when conservative democrats won those races. remember, liberals like pelosi went into hiding during the elections...they didn't go anywhere NEAR those close races. way i see it...the will of the people is saying we aren't giving it our all in Iraq and we are weak on the border.
You're reading too much Free Republic, dude. Pelosi didn't go into hiding. Bush's numbers have been in the hole since 2005 - though they've gone even deeper since the immigration debate. When you piss off the last few people who support you, that's what happens. You can shout about "conservative Democrats" all you want, but they weren't voting out liberal Republicans on a strictly local level. Besides, if a district wants to stay conservative, why in the hell would they vote Democratic? You'd think they'd do something about it in the Republican Primaries. No, it was a turn against your party. You'll likely be losing more seats in 2008 (though, you still have a chance at the White House). Welcome to the minority.
indeed, i wonder if i said i didn't support hillary that would mean i hate women?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
the only candidate out of this current field of corporate whores that would actually serve the interests of the american/world people is dennis kucinich. please make an argument for any other candidate you feel that about?
i agree!!!! but now we can include nader into that
and ppl can feel free to give any reasons as to the original post, other than my2hands
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
so, what we have so far as to why i should vote for obama is
-he'd pick better supreme court justices than mccain would
-something vague about women's health
oh, yeah, and
-he's 'the only realistic option, deal w/ it!'
did i miss anything? is it really that hard?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
he's the only choice that can win that shares some values close to doing the right thing.
He's pandering now and has been pandering for the last year so naturally the Nader supporters are calling him out for it.
He's not going to come on and make drastic wholesale changes and that's what many expect.
I don't actually believe he's going to try to set up circumstances to go to war with Iran like the Republicans will. I believe he'll try to roll us out of Iraq with responsible measure.
I believe he'll work toward some economic issues we need for the domestic side as well as doing something about health care.
And ...Honestly... I'm hoping he has been listening to his minister (Rev. Wright)... a lot of things that Wright has said are true.
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
And more imortantly, sweetpotato told you to do so:D:D
Sheesh, just get in line. Be part of the (fake) movement. Follow orders. Do as your told.
Damn independant, free-thinkiing hippies! Always have to question everything....always have to think and dig deeper. Always being a pain in the ass.
Can't you just allow yourself to be sucked-in by the Obama-Craze....the Obama PR Machine......for just a minute or two? Go with it.
C' mon! And after you vote for Obama we can all sit down together and watch American Idol, Desperate Housewives and Who Wants To Blow Obama? on TV. What fun! What joy!
Sheesh, don't you know 60% of the white Obama supporters are voting for him soley to prove to themselves (and to everyone else) that they're not racist?
Comments
Next thing you know, we'll discover that Kucinich and Obama are actually in the same party - but that's a bunch of conspiracy mumbo-jumbo I'd rather not get started on right now.
I agree with both of these, mainly because there is synthesis, and both of you are seeing the same thing, basically. And I think very reasonably, realistically and accurately.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
They may be in the same party but imo, they are worlds apart. Kucinich is one of the only Dems I can see myself getting behind.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Yes, he does want to keep a few there, just as we want to keep a few in Afghanistan, just as we still have a few in Kosovo and quite a few more in South Korea.
Yes, I got a little upset a few weeks ago when I heard a soundbite of Obama's that said he will leave all options on the table, in regards to Iran. But, hell, wouldn't you all too? If diplomacy (which Obama is good at, by the way), doesn't work....what then, God forbid?
Would you rather see McCain or Rudy in charge? Thompson? Hillary? Same old same old?
Sure, we'd all love a Kucinich in charge, but I'm sorry, folks...it ain't going to happen in 2008.
Senator Obama is not a NAFTA fan when it comes down to him seeing all our jobs go to other countries. He's no fan of Mujibar on the phone when we call for tech support any more than we are. He knows that it was Gore and Clinton who pushed NAFTA through and he knows the repercussions every time he visits Detroit, et al on the campaign trail. He's for bringing the jobs back home. He's for bringing our American cars up to date and up to demand by making them hybrids. He's for a lot of things you probably don't even know about yet.
Let's continue this discusion in December, shall we?
thanks, Bu2!! only took 5 pages to get a real reply!!!
buuuut i'm not so sure i trust him on NAFTA...(i had a longer post but internet explorer crashed taking all my links :( ) but, according to bloomsberg one of obama's chief economic/trade advisors is Daniel Tarullo...he was a deputy director for international affairs under clinton and helped create NAFTA and get it pushed thru (yes, i'm aware nafta was trying to be approved under bush but wasn't, he helped w/ changes and whatnot), not only that but his law firm advised mexico on NAFTA
the worst part was that as little as 1-2 years ago this guy was arguing why we need to escalate the WTO!!!
http://www.citizen.org/publications/release.cfm?ID=7501
it just seems one of his main men on trade and economics is such a rabid NAFTA/WTO supportoer...seems kinda contradictory
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
This is news to me. I'd never heard of his connection to Obama before you posted this. I'm going to have to research for a little while and figure out how to place this in my "Obama for President" brain mode.
I will say that, having two cats, I'm very worried about the whole China gluten wheat and rice debacle -- hell, eating chicken and pork, I worry about humans, let alone animals!
I'll have to get back to you on this, kabong. But rest assured, I'll look into it.
1. no. congressional races are local. only 50 out of 435 are competitive, (i.e. within a 55 to 45 spread) so only 50 districts are deciding the swing...if you want to extrapolate those 50 districts and pretend that's the "will of the American" people, be my guest but
2. in thos 50 districts, Dems ran as conservatives...see the likes of heath shuler...in the senate guys like tester and webb. and the more bush agrees with cons his numbers drop? concrete example please? bush was 50-50 until immigration...which is another issue conservative dems ran on.
this just in, bush is a liberal republican. he was doing well in popularity until he pissed us off...you can believe it or not, but that's reality.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
1. congressional races aren't always "local". case in point: 2006. exit polling indicates that iraq and the various gop scandals (abramoff, cunningham, delay, foley, torture, wiretapping, etc.) were the most important issues to the voters. that's national. lots of those polled probably "liked" their congressman to some extent, but bush's screwups and the general malaise in the republican party are the reasons why the "republican revolution" lasted only 12 years.
if only 50 congressional races out of 435 are competitive, how is that national? over 100 congressional races aren't even contested. incumbency reelection rates are at 98%....
so tell me...if 50 out of 435 races are competitive, tell me how that's representative of the "will of the people" ESPECIALLY when conservative democrats won those races. remember, liberals like pelosi went into hiding during the elections...they didn't go anywhere NEAR those close races. way i see it...the will of the people is saying we aren't giving it our all in Iraq and we are weak on the border.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
it's not just cat/dog food! i heard on cnn last week it's also in toothpaste and some cough medicine from china!!! (but does anyone buy toothpaste made in china? hell, actually i have no clue where mine was made...:D) kinda scary all the crap they keep saying they find toxic shit in our food/products
now, according to bloomberg they are just advisors, so maybe they aren't even advising him on those sections, i don't know, it just seems odd to have someone from citigroup and another w/ such strong nafta/wto connections advising you on anything
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
no, the troll has disappeared, not the first time he's said that to me, either. i went back and searched for something in another obama thread and noticed he made the same accusation of my real motivations being i don't like that he's black...no reply in that thread, either :(
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
strange.
indeed, i wonder if i said i didn't support hillary that would mean i hate women?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
you fucking racist sexist pig :cool:
i agree!!!! but now we can include nader into that
and ppl can feel free to give any reasons as to the original post, other than my2hands
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
tell me about it!!
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
exactly
That's what people tell me.
-he'd pick better supreme court justices than mccain would
-something vague about women's health
oh, yeah, and
-he's 'the only realistic option, deal w/ it!'
did i miss anything? is it really that hard?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
He's pandering now and has been pandering for the last year so naturally the Nader supporters are calling him out for it.
He's not going to come on and make drastic wholesale changes and that's what many expect.
I don't actually believe he's going to try to set up circumstances to go to war with Iran like the Republicans will. I believe he'll try to roll us out of Iraq with responsible measure.
I believe he'll work toward some economic issues we need for the domestic side as well as doing something about health care.
And ...Honestly... I'm hoping he has been listening to his minister (Rev. Wright)... a lot of things that Wright has said are true.
so you don't BELIEVE it regardless on what he said this week, but you are more than willing to BELIEVE someone else will because.....right.
this guy has built the biggest kool aid stand.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I told you I'd get around to using that joke.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JfuHT9vsxPE&feature=related
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
that is riduculous
Um, hello? Obama told you to do so!
And more imortantly, sweetpotato told you to do so:D:D
Sheesh, just get in line. Be part of the (fake) movement. Follow orders. Do as your told.
Damn independant, free-thinkiing hippies! Always have to question everything....always have to think and dig deeper. Always being a pain in the ass.
Can't you just allow yourself to be sucked-in by the Obama-Craze....the Obama PR Machine......for just a minute or two? Go with it.
C' mon! And after you vote for Obama we can all sit down together and watch American Idol, Desperate Housewives and Who Wants To Blow Obama? on TV. What fun! What joy!
Sheesh, don't you know 60% of the white Obama supporters are voting for him soley to prove to themselves (and to everyone else) that they're not racist?
" I'm not racist, I voted for Obama. I swear! "