that didn't answer any of my questions other than did you watch it.
Sincerely,
Kabong
PS no, i haven't had a chance to read any books yet, but what about the pretty big list of scholars from that time who never mentioned jesus? and what about all the reoccuring themes in these religions?
i didn't see this video as i'm at work...but what big list of scholars from that era never mentioned Jesus? I don't think that really proves much either though because he was a local phenomenon. Who would really be writing and talking up what a colony of the Roman Empire was doing? Also, he only had a 3 year public life...and taught by word of mouth.
“Kept in a small bowl, the goldfish will remain small. With more space, the fish can grow double, triple, or quadruple its size.”
-Big Fish
I see little relevance to the post I made, which was simply to inform the readers of the topic of some good, scholary, works which discuss Jesus, his origins, resurrection, and so on. To be honest, I was not expecting a response to my post; there was nothing to respond to, for I like I said, I simply suggested a few books for those who were interested. But,alas, I recieve a response like this...
But to answer your question, there were many magicians in antiquity, some of which were mentioned in the Bible. Is your argument that Jesus was nothing more than a magician, who impressed onlookers? If so, you must provide some evidence for you claim, which unfortunatley you haven't provided. One might assume the "miracles" described in the Gospels were nothing more than illusions shown to gullible onlookers, but this requires that 1. There must have been a man Jesus who did these things
Many (such as Jesusneverexisted.com) are not willing to accept that.
and
2. The Gospels must be at the very least somewhat trustworthy (or else you could not use them for your theory)
The reason Christ has a religion based upon him is not because of his miracles, whether you believe them to be supernatural or not, but rather the fact he claimed to be the Messiah, a Savior. His miracles were secondary to the crucifixion and resurrection.
Aaron
...
Okay... looks like someone got cheated on their dose of humor.
It was just a dumb question... nothing more. Just a dumb question based upon the fact that the Life of Jesus was written by men... possibly, men with biased viewpoints. Who's to say the authors didn't take a little 'Artistic license' and added embellishments when writing about His life? And how do we know that the text we read today was not edited by the Church back in 623 A.D? All we have is what is written in the Bible... the Bible that was in exclusively in the hands of the Church for how many hundreds of years? Is the Church is something we can trust?
...
So... yeah... when Jesus turned water into wine... miracle or magic?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Okay... looks like someone got cheated on their dose of humor.
It was just a dumb question... nothing more. Just a dumb question based upon the fact that the Life of Jesus was written by men... possibly, men with biased viewpoints. Who's to say the authors didn't take a little 'Artistic license' and added embellishments when writing about His life? And how do we know that the text we read today was not edited by the Church back in 623 A.D? All we have is what is written in the Bible... the Bible that was in exclusively in the hands of the Church for how many hundreds of years? Is the Church is something we can trust?
...
So... yeah... when Jesus turned water into wine... miracle or magic?
Didn't mean to come off too harsh earlier; sorry....
Yes, the Bible was written by men. As for the writers being bias, yeah, probably, considering the fact all the books were written by Jesus' followers (how, then, could they not be?) As for the Church editing texts, admittedly it has been done. But that is not really a problem, for there are many manuscripts to compare (older than the 7th century, by the way) which scholars can get a pretty good idea of what was original and what was added or embellished (for example, the last few verses of the book of Mark, or the Trinitarian passage in 1John).
As for turning the water into wine...well, I'm sure the people at the party were happy either way....
So if all scholars didn't comment on Jesus it implies that he is made up? I'm sure a lot of those scholars left out many details in regards to other things. The fact they didn't report on Jesus can mean a lot of things; your presuppositions about Jesus prob lead you to a conclusion that you like, just as my presupps lead me to a conclusion I like.
http://www.probe.org/content/view/781/77/
The first argument against this view is the logical fallacy of false cause. This fallacy occurs when someone argues that just because two things exist side by side, that one must be the cause of the other. As one theologian has written, the History of Religions School had the tendency "to convert parallels into influences and influences into sources."{5} Causal connection is much harder to prove than proximity. The mere fact that other religions may have had a god who died and then came back to life in some manner does not mean that this was the source of Christian ideas, even if it can be shown that the apostles knew of this other set of beliefs.
Some scholars, hostile to Christianity, tend to exaggerate, or invent, similarities between Christianity and the mystery religions. British scholar Edwyn Bevan writes:
Of course if one writes an imaginary description of the Orphic mysteries . . . filling in the large gaps in the picture left by our data from the Christian Eucharist, one produces something very impressive. On this plan, you first put in the Christian elements, and then are staggered to find them there.{6}
An example might be the practice of the taurobolium in the cult of Cybele or Great Mother. This initiation rite, in which the blood of a sacrificed bull is allowed to pour over a neophyte, is claimed by some to be the source of baptism in Christianity. Arguments have been made that the language "blood of the lamb" (Rev. 7:14), and "blood of Jesus" (1 Peter 1:2) was borrowed from the language of the taurobolium and criobolium in which a ram was slaughtered. In fact, a better argument can be made that the cult borrowed its language from the Christian tradition.
The cult of Cybele did not use the taurobolium until the second century A.D.
did you watch the video? it lays out faaaaar more similarities than 'died and came back'
like birth followed by 3 kings, virgin birth, mary, 12 apostles/brothers, the flood and ark, ppl like moses only named mises who were also placed in a basket at birth and put in a river b/c of infantcide to be raised by royalty and later take down the word of god, not only died and came back but were dead for 3 days and came back, then raise upwards and the cross....if you watched the video you would see a very big list of similarities side by side
these things were in other religions long before the time of jesus, so i don't see how, as to your earlier claim, they are copying off christianity....if they existed first, how can they copy something thousands to hundreds of years later??
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
did you watch the video? it lays out faaaaar more similarities than 'died and came back'
like birth followed by 3 kings, virgin birth, mary, 12 apostles/brothers, the flood and ark, ppl like moses only named mises who were also placed in a basket at birth and put in a river b/c of infantcide to be raised by royalty and later take down the word of god, not only died and came back but were dead for 3 days and came back, then raise upwards and the cross....if you watched the video you would see a very big list of similarities side by side
these things were in other religions long before the time of jesus, so i don't see how, as to your earlier claim, they are copying off christianity....if they existed first, how can they copy something thousands to hundreds of years later??
El... I did watch the video and their is interesting things in the video but again similarity does not imply causality...did you read the quote I posted? here it is again
This fallacy occurs when someone argues that just because two things exist side by side, that one must be the cause of the other. As one theologian has written, the History of Religions School had the tendency "to convert parallels into influences and influences into sources."{5} Causal connection is much harder to prove than proximity.
I'm not sure if they are copying off of christianity or, are they naturally occurring themes that are revealed in nature. Again, all of this is retrospective and with retrospective theories come bias.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
If God had a sense of humor... you know what would really be funny?
Scientology is the One religion of truth.
"The mormons, alright, the mormons got it right, OK? Now listen up..."
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
...
I'm with RigneyClan on this one.
There is a reason WHY Christmas and Easter fall where they do. And the things associated with both holidays, too. Both are based around Pagean ritual celebrations that mark the seasons. Trees decorated with fertility balls and fruit... bunnies and eggs say more about fertility than Jesus.
The young Christian Church used these celebrations to get the heathens to join in. Nothing wrong with that, I see it as a valid method to get people to listen in on your sermons and stuff.
...
But to pretend it was the other way around... isn't Truth a big part of your religion?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
I'm with RigneyClan on this one.
There is a reason WHY Christmas and Easter fall where they do. And the things associated with both holidays, too. Both are based around Pagean ritual celebrations that mark the seasons. Trees decorated with fertility balls and fruit... bunnies and eggs say more about fertility than Jesus.
The young Christian Church used these celebrations to get the heathens to join in. Nothing wrong with that, I see it as a valid method to get people to listen in on your sermons and stuff.
...
But to pretend it was the other way around... isn't Truth a big part of your religion?
fair points, i figured he was calling bullshit on something different.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
...
I'm with RigneyClan on this one.
There is a reason WHY Christmas and Easter fall where they do. And the things associated with both holidays, too. Both are based around Pagean ritual celebrations that mark the seasons. Trees decorated with fertility balls and fruit... bunnies and eggs say more about fertility than Jesus.
The young Christian Church used these celebrations to get the heathens to join in. Nothing wrong with that, I see it as a valid method to get people to listen in on your sermons and stuff.
...
But to pretend it was the other way around... isn't Truth a big part of your religion?
El... I did watch the video and their is interesting things in the video but again similarity does not imply causality...did you read the quote I posted? here it is again
This fallacy occurs when someone argues that just because two things exist side by side, that one must be the cause of the other. As one theologian has written, the History of Religions School had the tendency "to convert parallels into influences and influences into sources."{5} Causal connection is much harder to prove than proximity.
I'm not sure if they are copying off of christianity or, are they naturally occurring themes that are revealed in nature. Again, all of this is retrospective and with retrospective theories come bias.
ok, but what about the moses/mises/other variations of the name who had pretty much the exact same life? was it just a coincidence? where those religions who existed BEFORE christianity...were they just seeing the future when moses came?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
ok, but what about the moses/mises/other variations of the name who had pretty much the exact same life? was it just a coincidence? where those religions who existed BEFORE christianity...were they just seeing the future when moses came?
bump
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
that i don't know. I was recommended a good resource re: New testament and pagan thought "Ronald H. Nash, The Gospel and the Greeks: Did the New Testament Borrow from Pagan Thought?" I figured since you were asking some of the questions, you'd like to read a response from the other side of your view.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
I came across this video yesterday, and I must say - it's quite enlightening in regards to the astrotheological origins of many of the messianic myths.
...
If David Blaine and/or Criss Angel were around 2000 years ago... doing the magic tricks they do in New York and Vegas... except they did these same tricks in Jerusalem or Damacus... do you think they might have a Religion based upon them today?
Wait, so Sarah Silverman has been right all along?
Comments
i didn't see this video as i'm at work...but what big list of scholars from that era never mentioned Jesus? I don't think that really proves much either though because he was a local phenomenon. Who would really be writing and talking up what a colony of the Roman Empire was doing? Also, he only had a 3 year public life...and taught by word of mouth.
-Big Fish
Okay... looks like someone got cheated on their dose of humor.
It was just a dumb question... nothing more. Just a dumb question based upon the fact that the Life of Jesus was written by men... possibly, men with biased viewpoints. Who's to say the authors didn't take a little 'Artistic license' and added embellishments when writing about His life? And how do we know that the text we read today was not edited by the Church back in 623 A.D? All we have is what is written in the Bible... the Bible that was in exclusively in the hands of the Church for how many hundreds of years? Is the Church is something we can trust?
...
So... yeah... when Jesus turned water into wine... miracle or magic?
Hail, Hail!!!
Scientology is the One religion of truth.
Hail, Hail!!!
Didn't mean to come off too harsh earlier; sorry....
Yes, the Bible was written by men. As for the writers being bias, yeah, probably, considering the fact all the books were written by Jesus' followers (how, then, could they not be?) As for the Church editing texts, admittedly it has been done. But that is not really a problem, for there are many manuscripts to compare (older than the 7th century, by the way) which scholars can get a pretty good idea of what was original and what was added or embellished (for example, the last few verses of the book of Mark, or the Trinitarian passage in 1John).
As for turning the water into wine...well, I'm sure the people at the party were happy either way....
Aaron
bullshit probably. but that wont stop me inviting the man to my next party.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
did you watch the video? it lays out faaaaar more similarities than 'died and came back'
like birth followed by 3 kings, virgin birth, mary, 12 apostles/brothers, the flood and ark, ppl like moses only named mises who were also placed in a basket at birth and put in a river b/c of infantcide to be raised by royalty and later take down the word of god, not only died and came back but were dead for 3 days and came back, then raise upwards and the cross....if you watched the video you would see a very big list of similarities side by side
these things were in other religions long before the time of jesus, so i don't see how, as to your earlier claim, they are copying off christianity....if they existed first, how can they copy something thousands to hundreds of years later??
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
El... I did watch the video and their is interesting things in the video but again similarity does not imply causality...did you read the quote I posted? here it is again
This fallacy occurs when someone argues that just because two things exist side by side, that one must be the cause of the other. As one theologian has written, the History of Religions School had the tendency "to convert parallels into influences and influences into sources."{5} Causal connection is much harder to prove than proximity.
I'm not sure if they are copying off of christianity or, are they naturally occurring themes that are revealed in nature. Again, all of this is retrospective and with retrospective theories come bias.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I call total bullshit.
that's fine, you can do what you want.
I'm with RigneyClan on this one.
There is a reason WHY Christmas and Easter fall where they do. And the things associated with both holidays, too. Both are based around Pagean ritual celebrations that mark the seasons. Trees decorated with fertility balls and fruit... bunnies and eggs say more about fertility than Jesus.
The young Christian Church used these celebrations to get the heathens to join in. Nothing wrong with that, I see it as a valid method to get people to listen in on your sermons and stuff.
...
But to pretend it was the other way around... isn't Truth a big part of your religion?
Hail, Hail!!!
fair points, i figured he was calling bullshit on something different.
That's exactly what I was getting at.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
ok, but what about the moses/mises/other variations of the name who had pretty much the exact same life? was it just a coincidence? where those religions who existed BEFORE christianity...were they just seeing the future when moses came?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
bump
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
that i don't know. I was recommended a good resource re: New testament and pagan thought "Ronald H. Nash, The Gospel and the Greeks: Did the New Testament Borrow from Pagan Thought?" I figured since you were asking some of the questions, you'd like to read a response from the other side of your view.