the origins of jesus, the end times, christianity and every other religion...

El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
edited June 2007 in A Moving Train
i found this very interesting, this is part one of zeitgeist (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com ) of 3 parts...this is the only one dealing w/ religion, the rest was using fear as a social control method and the 3rd part is about the ppl behind the curtains (bankers/federal reserve, industrialists....)

anyway, it lays a pretty good claim that jesus, christianity and pretty much every other religion is lifted from paganism and astrology and the whole myth of jesus and the end times and all that is based on astrology...it makes the claim that the end times has been mistaken for what it really means, it does not mean the end of the world as a lot of christians believe but the end of the age...the changing from the age of pisces to the age of aquarius and points out bible quotes that point to that...

watch (just 26 min, but veeeeery interesting) and discuss!!!

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-8461754114455236037&hl=en
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • LikeAnOceanLikeAnOcean Posts: 7,718
    lots of good points..

    fyi, I'm agnostic. I don't believe, but I don't not believe.. I just wish people would not go nuts over religion. I think it ok to have, but not exploit.
  • ToolgardenToolgarden Posts: 88
    Amen.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: read Joseph Campbell. Is it coincidence that his initials are JC? I wish I hadn't had so much to drink tonight, I would contribute more.

    ok.
    "Should I tell you my room is walled up? In what way might I leave it? Here is how; Goodwill knows no obstacle. Nothing can stand before a deep desire. All I have to do is imagine a door." -Schultz

    Trading stories with the leaves instead
  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    Sounds interesting, I'll watch it when I have a little bit more time...

    Have you seen Bible Uncovered on National Geographic?
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


    naděje umírá poslední
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Yea, the Bible originates from paganism, which originates from ancient astrological stories created for the propagation of knowledge concerning agriculture.

    The in-between is myth-making by investors.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • IndianSummerIndianSummer Posts: 854
    I have faced it, A life wasted...

    Take my hand, my child of love
    Come step inside my tears
    Swim the magic ocean,
    I've been crying all these years
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    I think we should implement a dont ask dont tell policy with religion
  • IndianSummerIndianSummer Posts: 854
    jlew24asu wrote:
    dont ask dont tell policy

    whats a "dont ask dont tell" policy ??
    I have faced it, A life wasted...

    Take my hand, my child of love
    Come step inside my tears
    Swim the magic ocean,
    I've been crying all these years
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    El_Kabong wrote:
    the rest was using fear as a social control method

    you can see plenty of evidence of that in the US military thread

    pussy fucking americans scared of the boogey man
  • mxaaronmxaaron Posts: 92
    This theory of the origins of Christianity seems to be popping up frequently: movies like The God Who Wasn't There, numerous websites such as Jesusneverexisted.com, and so on.

    Instead of trying to refute these claims, I will instead refer readers to several books which deal with the "jesus is taken from pagan myths" theories (not that Im avoiding the issue, but rather I respect their scholarship)
    I reccomend "Reinventing Jesus" (the authors escape me at the moment), anything by N.T. Wright (very scholary), or perhaps some Ben Witherington.

    Look them up on Amazon if you have some extra cash to invest. If not, I suppose you can continue to believe that these theories are bulletproof and that the case concernig Christ is closed.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    mxaaron wrote:
    This theory of the origins of Christianity seems to be popping up frequently: movies like The God Who Wasn't There, numerous websites such as Jesusneverexisted.com, and so on.

    Instead of trying to refute these claims, I will instead refer readers to several books which deal with the "jesus is taken from pagan myths" theories (not that Im avoiding the issue, but rather I respect their scholarship)
    I reccomend "Reinventing Jesus" (the authors escape me at the moment), anything by N.T. Wright (very scholary), or perhaps some Ben Witherington.

    Look them up on Amazon if you have some extra cash to invest. If not, I suppose you can continue to believe that these theories are bulletproof and that the case concernig Christ is closed.
    ...
    If David Blaine and/or Criss Angel were around 2000 years ago... doing the magic tricks they do in New York and Vegas... except they did these same tricks in Jerusalem or Damacus... do you think they might have a Religion based upon them today?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    whats a "dont ask dont tell" policy ??
    I mean we should all keep our religious beliefs to ourselves.

    what is so hard to understand what I mean by that?
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    If David Blaine and/or Criss Angel were around 2000 years ago... doing the magic tricks they do in New York and Vegas... except they did these same tricks in Jerusalem or Damacus... do you think they might have a Religion based upon them today?


    http://youtube.com/watch?v=sBQLq2VmZcA
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    can u give me the name of this video.


    this is part one of zeitgeist (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com ) of 3 parts
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    While there are several sources that suggest that Mithraism included a notion of rebirth, they are all post-Christian. The earliest...dates from the end of the second century A.D."2

    Therefore, even though there are similarities between Christianity and Mithraism, it is up to the critics to prove that one borrowed from the other. But, considering that the writers of the New Testament were Jews who shunned pagan philosophies and that the Old Testament has all of the themes found in Christianity, it is far more probable that if any borrowing was done, it was done by the pagan religions that wanted to emulate the success of Christianity.

    http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm
    http://www.bede.org.uk/frazer.htm
    http://www.probe.org/content/view/781/77/
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    chopitdown wrote:
    While there are several sources that suggest that Mithraism included a notion of rebirth, they are all post-Christian. The earliest...dates from the end of the second century A.D."2

    Therefore, even though there are similarities between Christianity and Mithraism, it is up to the critics to prove that one borrowed from the other. But, considering that the writers of the New Testament were Jews who shunned pagan philosophies and that the Old Testament has all of the themes found in Christianity, it is far more probable that if any borrowing was done, it was done by the pagan religions that wanted to emulate the success of Christianity.

    http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm
    http://www.bede.org.uk/frazer.htm
    http://www.probe.org/content/view/781/77/

    The bolded text is factually in accurate. Noah's Ark story for example dates back to the Epic of Gilgamesh (2500 B.C.). Pointing out a single error in some literary works will not prove the bolded statement.

    That statement also doesn't explain Isis-Mari, Devaki, Maya and so on. It only talks about Mithraism. The reason these Christian apologists use Mithraism is because the area is very disputable, but there are many other traditions which aren't spoken about by apologists. Or at least all I've seen.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    Ahnimus wrote:
    The bolded text is factually in accurate. Noah's Ark story for example dates back to the Epic of Gilgamesh (2500 B.C.). Pointing out a single error in some literary works will not prove the bolded statement.

    That statement also doesn't explain Isis-Mari, Devaki, Maya and so on. It only talks about Mithraism. The reason these Christian apologists use Mithraism is because the area is very disputable, but there are many other traditions which aren't spoken about by apologists. Or at least all I've seen.

    i posted some other links that address the concept that is presented. Here is one that discusses some of the issues as well.
    http://www.blackapologetics.com/bamanswerantiquity.html

    The quote that I posted mostly had to do with the resurrection component that other religions had, it wasn't meant to be taken as dealing with the Ark.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • mxaaronmxaaron Posts: 92
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    If David Blaine and/or Criss Angel were around 2000 years ago... doing the magic tricks they do in New York and Vegas... except they did these same tricks in Jerusalem or Damacus... do you think they might have a Religion based upon them today?

    I see little relevance to the post I made, which was simply to inform the readers of the topic of some good, scholary, works which discuss Jesus, his origins, resurrection, and so on. To be honest, I was not expecting a response to my post; there was nothing to respond to, for I like I said, I simply suggested a few books for those who were interested. But,alas, I recieve a response like this...

    But to answer your question, there were many magicians in antiquity, some of which were mentioned in the Bible. Is your argument that Jesus was nothing more than a magician, who impressed onlookers? If so, you must provide some evidence for you claim, which unfortunatley you haven't provided. One might assume the "miracles" described in the Gospels were nothing more than illusions shown to gullible onlookers, but this requires that 1. There must have been a man Jesus who did these things
    Many (such as Jesusneverexisted.com) are not willing to accept that.
    and
    2. The Gospels must be at the very least somewhat trustworthy (or else you could not use them for your theory)
    The reason Christ has a religion based upon him is not because of his miracles, whether you believe them to be supernatural or not, but rather the fact he claimed to be the Messiah, a Savior. His miracles were secondary to the crucifixion and resurrection.

    Aaron
  • Smellyman2Smellyman2 Posts: 689
    Very interesting video. The evidence in the video is very plausible, unlike the evidence for Christianity and other religions.
  • mxaaronmxaaron Posts: 92
    Smellyman wrote:
    Very interesting video. The evidence in the video is very plausible, unlike the evidence for Christianity and other religions.

    What do you mean by evidence being plausible or implausible?
  • citizen_drewcitizen_drew Posts: 170
    I always get confused about the beginning and ending of ages on my calendar, I always think it’s every 2500 years, not 2150 as stated in the video…Good to know.

    Also my Indian friend who happens to be a devout Sikh sometimes likes to bring up some of his beliefs, the ones that come to mind after watching the video are:
    There is only one God...
    And that all religions just have a different viewpoint or perspective of this same God.
    The universe is the temple of God.

    Apparently they all have the same birthday, I wonder if that’s along the lines of what he was talking about... Gurus are always talking in code messin with me head.

    Interesting film
  • Smellyman2Smellyman2 Posts: 689
    mxaaron wrote:
    What do you mean by evidence being plausible or implausible?

    Meaning they actually had well thought out theories backed up by evidence and religion, like Christianity, has no evidence, only faith. You can believe it if you want, makes no difference to me, but I thought it was a very compelling video.
  • mxaaronmxaaron Posts: 92
    Smellyman wrote:
    Meaning they actually had well thought out theories backed up by evidence and religion, like Christianity, has no evidence, only faith. You can believe it if you want, makes no difference to me, but I thought it was a very compelling video.

    Do you mean to say Christianty has no evidence, implausible evidence, or that you are unconvinced by the evidence for it? Furthermore, by "evidence for Christianity" do you mean specifically the Resurrection, or the credibility of the Gospels, or the evidence for or against the existence of God (and so on)?

    Just trying to understand what exactly you mean

    Thanks
    Aaron
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    mxaaron wrote:
    Do you mean to say Christianty has no evidence, implausible evidence, or that you are unconvinced by the evidence for it? Furthermore, by "evidence for Christianity" do you mean specifically the Resurrection, or the credibility of the Gospels, or the evidence for or against the existence of God (and so on)?

    Just trying to understand what exactly you mean

    Thanks
    Aaron

    yes, where is the proof, especially to date wise, of the flood and noah's ark? the resurrection? jesus at all, other than from the bible? that god spoke to moses on the mountain? the burning bush? it's blind faith.

    what do you think will happen during the rapture/end times?

    did you watch the video and see all the documented similarities of figures like jesus from religions BEFORE, in some cases hundreds of years before, christianity? 3 kings, death, resurrection after 3 days, the cross, 12 brothers/disciples, virgin birth, mary, moses like figures (placed in a basket in the water, raised by royalty, took the word of god...)w/ names like 'mises'....?
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • ForestBrainForestBrain Posts: 460
    I wish people could just stop being judgmental.
    I believe people love arguing and they will do it over anything they can.
    When life gives you lemons, throw them at somebody.
  • mxaaronmxaaron Posts: 92
    El_Kabong wrote:
    yes, where is the proof, especially to date wise, of the flood and noah's ark? the resurrection? jesus at all, other than from the bible? that god spoke to moses on the mountain? the burning bush? it's blind faith.

    what do you think will happen during the rapture/end times?

    did you watch the video and see all the documented similarities of figures like jesus from religions BEFORE, in some cases hundreds of years before, christianity? 3 kings, death, resurrection after 3 days, the cross, 12 brothers/disciples, virgin birth, mary, moses like figures (placed in a basket in the water, raised by royalty, took the word of god...)w/ names like 'mises'....?

    Mr. Kabong,

    What proof do you need? The Jesus-myth theory is held by few (if any)reputable scholars, inculding secular. His existence is almost non-debatable; what can be questioned are the claims He made, that is, about himself being the Son of God. I could say the testimonies presented in the Gospels, and throughout the writings of Paul (and others) are indeed "evidence of Christianity" (which, as I mentioned in an earlier post, is ambiguous).

    And yes, I did watch the video, but there wasn't any groundbreaking information that can't be found by doing a simple Google search. Did you read any of the books I suggested? Some scholary books, and heck, some authors have degrees in the relevent fields, and even have citations and the like. Perhaps you check them out...
  • SpecificsSpecifics Posts: 417
    I wish people could just stop being judgmental.
    I believe people love arguing and they will do it over anything they can.

    That is complete bullshit, no-one likes arguing. You dick.
  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    I wish people could just stop being judgmental.

    Funny.
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


    naděje umírá poslední
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    mxaaron wrote:
    Mr. Kabong,

    What proof do you need? The Jesus-myth theory is held by few (if any)reputable scholars, inculding secular. His existence is almost non-debatable; what can be questioned are the claims He made, that is, about himself being the Son of God. I could say the testimonies presented in the Gospels, and throughout the writings of Paul (and others) are indeed "evidence of Christianity" (which, as I mentioned in an earlier post, is ambiguous).

    And yes, I did watch the video, but there wasn't any groundbreaking information that can't be found by doing a simple Google search. Did you read any of the books I suggested? Some scholary books, and heck, some authors have degrees in the relevent fields, and even have citations and the like. Perhaps you check them out...


    Mr. Aaron,

    that didn't answer any of my questions other than did you watch it.

    Sincerely,
    Kabong

    PS no, i haven't had a chance to read any books yet, but what about the pretty big list of scholars from that time who never mentioned jesus? and what about all the reoccuring themes in these religions?
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    El_Kabong wrote:

    PS no, i haven't had a chance to read any books yet, but what about the pretty big list of scholars from that time who never mentioned jesus?

    So if all scholars didn't comment on Jesus it implies that he is made up? I'm sure a lot of those scholars left out many details in regards to other things. The fact they didn't report on Jesus can mean a lot of things; your presuppositions about Jesus prob lead you to a conclusion that you like, just as my presupps lead me to a conclusion I like.
    El_Kabong wrote:
    and what about all the reoccuring themes in these religions?
    http://www.probe.org/content/view/781/77/
    The first argument against this view is the logical fallacy of false cause. This fallacy occurs when someone argues that just because two things exist side by side, that one must be the cause of the other. As one theologian has written, the History of Religions School had the tendency "to convert parallels into influences and influences into sources."{5} Causal connection is much harder to prove than proximity. The mere fact that other religions may have had a god who died and then came back to life in some manner does not mean that this was the source of Christian ideas, even if it can be shown that the apostles knew of this other set of beliefs.

    Some scholars, hostile to Christianity, tend to exaggerate, or invent, similarities between Christianity and the mystery religions. British scholar Edwyn Bevan writes:

    Of course if one writes an imaginary description of the Orphic mysteries . . . filling in the large gaps in the picture left by our data from the Christian Eucharist, one produces something very impressive. On this plan, you first put in the Christian elements, and then are staggered to find them there.{6}

    An example might be the practice of the taurobolium in the cult of Cybele or Great Mother. This initiation rite, in which the blood of a sacrificed bull is allowed to pour over a neophyte, is claimed by some to be the source of baptism in Christianity. Arguments have been made that the language "blood of the lamb" (Rev. 7:14), and "blood of Jesus" (1 Peter 1:2) was borrowed from the language of the taurobolium and criobolium in which a ram was slaughtered. In fact, a better argument can be made that the cult borrowed its language from the Christian tradition.

    The cult of Cybele did not use the taurobolium until the second century A.D.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • The first link that comes up when you search for "Jesus" on youtube:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KiAvmzcZbg
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

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