unless you can predict the future; you can't say that. you could witness an accident today and see mangled kids being pulled from the wreckage and have it effect you. you can have nightmares for months reliving that experience every day. that my friend is ptsd.
I've seen some fairly crazy shit. I had a guy die right beside me from a heart attack...wierd...he kept looking at me and I just knew he was dying. I've found 2 drowned people on two different occasions...the one guy had been nibbled on by quite a bit by fish...that or he was turning into stew. I've watched a guy burn to death once. I think I'd have to see some really hardcore shit to get PTSD. Probably one of those snuffrape Iraqi housecall visits would do I imagine...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
This month, however, the State Department launched the first survey of all State personnel who have served since 2002 in "unaccompanied posts," or areas deemed so dangerous that family members are not allowed. The one-month survey is being carried on the department's internal Web site, and responses are anonymous. So far, half of the respondents said they experienced irritability and unusual hostility, and 35 to 52 percent said they suffered from one or more symptoms common to PTSD -- including social withdrawal, isolation, apathy, insomnia and anxiety -- during or after their assignments.
"Preliminary results from the State Department survey suggest that it may affect some 40 percent or more, similar to what has been reported for the U.S. military," Kashkett told lawmakers.
how can we put them in that environment? let alone the 'fuck it' attitude when they come home? more than 1/2 a million iraqis are dead and how many of ours are we scarring for life? on top of the dead, on top of the maimed
it's fucking disgusting
I don't see how you got the 1/2 of troops suffer from some form of PTSD. The only figure I see that is close to that is here,... "and 35 to 52 percent said they suffered from one or more symptoms common to PTSD -- including social withdrawal, isolation, apathy, insomnia and anxiety -- during or after their assignments." And that was on the high end.
Does one or more symptom mean you have PTSD? Shit, I am feeling pretty apathetic and withdrawn right now. Does that mean I has PTSD.
Maybe you got it from this.... "Preliminary results from the State Department survey suggest that it may affect some 40 percent or more, similar to what has been reported for the U.S. military,". But this is still less than half.
So why trump up the number?
Second our troops are pretty strong, and the military has a pretty good counseling system. The Army has recognized the PTSD problem.
Some soldiers don't want to go because they think it might hurt the carrier, but the military is addressing those fears. Soldiers can go to counseling and it will not be put into their records.
I know a couple soldiers that reached their point while over there. The soldiers went to some counseling and they are fine now.
We can put them in that environment because it is their job. It is their job to do the hard, nasty, selfless stuff so that others can live in comfort.
I don't see how you got the 1/2 of troops suffer from some form of PTSD. The only figure I see that is close to that is here,... "and 35 to 52 percent said they suffered from one or more symptoms common to PTSD -- including social withdrawal, isolation, apathy, insomnia and anxiety -- during or after their assignments." And that was on the high end.
Does one or more symptom mean you have PTSD? Shit, I am feeling pretty apathetic and withdrawn right now. Does that mean I has PTSD.
Maybe you got it from this.... "Preliminary results from the State Department survey suggest that it may affect some 40 percent or more, similar to what has been reported for the U.S. military,". But this is still less than half.
So why trump up the number?
Second our troops are pretty strong, and the military has a pretty good counseling system. The Army has recognized the PTSD problem.
Some soldiers don't want to go because they think it might hurt the carrier, but the military is addressing those fears. Soldiers can go to counseling and it will not be put into their records.
I know a couple soldiers that reached their point while over there. The soldiers went to some counseling and they are fine now.
We can put them in that environment because it is their job. It is their job to do the hard, nasty, selfless stuff so that others can live in comfort.
how are they doing this in iraq????
what is their job? nation building? funny, georgie said that wasn't their job or role...but when it comes to protecting valuable interests.....
3/4 want us out of their fucking country. what would you do if someone was over here and 3/4 of americans wanted them out and saw them as only a negative?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
while i've never been to phoenix i have trouble believing it is a rational side by side comparison...are you saying looking at phoenix is like looking in a mirror w/ iraq??? for real!?
haaaa
i'm sure it's violent there, but on your trips have you ever....had your friends car in front of you get blown up by an ied? had your friend shot next to you by a sniper or 'small arms fire'??
also, are you in that situation pretty much 24hrs a day? for 18 months or more?? if so, then you are a fool to stay!
it's a perpetual state of this shit! not just a business trip to town!!!
i bolded the part, 35-52...as for your moods of 'feeling pretty apathetic and withdrawn'...i, again, have great trouble thinking your terror of some business trips is anywhere near comparable to 24hrs a day for 18 months of so much more shit than you will find happening to you in phonenix (not to say there some bad shit doesn't happen there)
it's not comparable
not even close
then you say "We can put them in that environment because it is their job. It is their job to do the hard, nasty, selfless stuff so that others can live in comfort."
how are they doing this in iraq????
what is their job? nation building? funny, georgie said that wasn't their job or role...but when it comes to protecting valuable interests.....
3/4 want us out of their fucking country. what would you do if someone was over here and 3/4 of americans wanted them out and saw them as only a negative?
I think you are confusing me with someone else. I have only been to Phoenix once and nothing traumatic happened, unless you count watching the 2nd Charlie's Angles movie. Either way this is the first time I have ever mentioned my trip through Phoenix on this board.
When I said we put them in those situations because it is they job I was speaking more generally. I was not specifically refering the current Iraq campaign. Putting up with shit, being uncomfortable, being away from their family, is part of what a soldier does.
Whether or not they should be there is a different topic.
I think you are confusing me with someone else. I have only been to Phoenix once and nothing traumatic happened, unless you count watching the 2nd Charlie's Angles movie. Either way this is the first time I have ever mentioned my trip through Phoenix on this board.
When I said we put them in those situations because it is they job I was speaking more generally. I was not specifically refering the current Iraq campaign. Putting up with shit, being uncomfortable, being away from their family, is part of what a soldier does.
Whether or not they should be there is a different topic.
doh! the phoenix part was supposed to be in a reply to onelongsong...
oh, you were speaking gernerally?? b/c i thought this thread was specifically about what they go through in iraq?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i live in that climate. it's been 117F already this summer and it's expected to get warmer. it did cool down to 98F at night though. if you look at the police blotter for phoenix; you'll see that every time i go to phoenix i experience more violence than the soldiers in iraq. thus i carry a gun when i visit phoenix. more people have been killed by drunk drivers in the us then soldiers killed in iraq during the same time period. furthermore; when they enlisted; they knew it was a snake when they picked it up. just as police know they will be shot at and firemen know they will be put in danger at a moments notice. it's part of the job they chose. i raise the most dangerous animal in north america. i'm put in danger every day. i chose this life as they chose theirs.
i was diagnosed with ptsd because of my brain surgery. i had nightmares and relived the experience daily. i saw it as a medical condition i had to beat. not a reason to feel sorry for myself and collect disability. i do have compassion for those with real ptsd. i've seen it at it's worse from a friend shot up in vietnam. i've also seen someone collecting social security because they got ptsd from witnessing a fatal accident.
i'd say 40% are pushing for a medical discharge just to get out of iraq. IMO of course.
while i've never been to phoenix i have trouble believing it is a rational side by side comparison...are you saying looking at phoenix is like looking in a mirror w/ iraq??? for real!?
haaaa
i'm sure it's violent there, but on your trips have you ever....had your friends car in front of you get blown up by an ied? had your friend shot next to you by a sniper or 'small arms fire'??
also, are you in that situation pretty much 24hrs a day? for 18 months or more?? if so, then you are a fool to stay!
it's a perpetual state of this shit! not just a business trip to town!!! again, have great trouble thinking your terror of some business trips is anywhere near comparable to 24hrs a day for 18 months of so much more shit than you will find happening to you in phonenix (not to say there some bad shit doesn't happen there)
it's not comparable
not even close
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
The way I see it... these are OUR soldiers. They've been to fucking Iraq... WE HAVEN'T. If they come home and say they are suffering... we should believe them first, not doubt them. They have served our country... we 'Support The Troops', right? Well, calling them liars is not much support.
...
On behalf of a grateful Nation... we think you soldiers are full of shit. Just get back to work at the Tire Shop and quit complaining. Here is an 'I Support The Troops' magnet to show our gratitude.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
while i've never been to phoenix i have trouble believing it is a rational side by side comparison...are you saying looking at phoenix is like looking in a mirror w/ iraq??? for real!?
haaaa
i'm sure it's violent there, but on your trips have you ever....had your friends car in front of you get blown up by an ied? had your friend shot next to you by a sniper or 'small arms fire'??
also, are you in that situation pretty much 24hrs a day? for 18 months or more?? if so, then you are a fool to stay!
it's a perpetual state of this shit! not just a business trip to town!!! again, have great trouble thinking your terror of some business trips is anywhere near comparable to 24hrs a day for 18 months of so much more shit than you will find happening to you in phonenix (not to say there some bad shit doesn't happen there)
it's not comparable
not even close
i see your point el. there's no comparrison. but inner city NY is 24/7 violence. and for the people that do witness either a friend being blown up by an ied or their best friend be torn apart by a drunk driver; i can see them having ptsd. but i also ask what about those coming home from WWII? they saw similar things and those in concentration camps seen worse. how were they able to come home and go to work? ptsd used to be a serious condition. now every day life is reason for ptsd. i was diagnosed with it for having surgery. my friend was diagnosed with it after seeing a child run over by a prison van in downtown phoenix. if you see someone murdered; you get ptsd. the only requirements now is you have to be stressed after seeing a traumatic incident. look at rosie O'fatass. she was 3 states away when columbine happened.
my son is on his way to iraq and a nephew just returned from 2 tours. i also saw a documentory where gang members are enlisting to learn to fight on american streets. what a great set-up to have the government pay you and also earn illegal money on the side.
yes; we have good soldiers there and we have bad ones. 50% is an insane amount though. vietnam was a cut throat war where babies were booby trapped with explosives. i'd expect to see a higher number for that war.
what is their job? nation building? funny, georgie said that wasn't their job or role...but when it comes to protecting valuable interests.....
3/4 want us out of their fucking country. what would you do if someone was over here and 3/4 of americans wanted them out and saw them as only a negative?
if they were here to bring freedom and democracy as they did in WWII when they brought freedom to europe when it was in the control of a dictator. i would want the same freedoms granted to the rest of the world. i would see that they never took land but gave the land back to the people and helped them rebuild. they helped them become a bigger and better nation then they were. they gave loans that only one nation repayed. poland was the only country to repay them yet they still help. i would know that if my country ever had a disaster; they would be there to help.
doh! the phoenix part was supposed to be in a reply to onelongsong...
oh.. ok I was a little confused.
oh, you were speaking gernerally?? b/c i thought this thread was specifically about what they go through in iraq?
Firstly:
I was saying that generally because PTSD is not something new to the Iraq war. Soldiers dealing with fucked up shit is not something new to the Iraq war. I was trying to make the point that it is a Soldiers job to go into bad environments.
My overall point is, saying we should bring the soldiers home because they are dealing with things that happen in war is not a valid reason to bring them home. It would be like saying firefighters should not leave the fire station because they will have to deal with fire.
There are valid reasons to bring the soldiers home. Soldiers getting PTSD is not one of them.
Secondly
The study said
This month, however, the State Department launched the first survey of all State personnel who have served since 2002 in "unaccompanied posts," or areas deemed so dangerous that family members are not allowed.
The best example of an "unaccompanied post" is any post in Korea. Afganistan is an example of a dangerous assignment that families are not allowed to go to with the soldiers.
So the study you used is not specifically about what soldiers go through in Iraq. But I understand what you are getting at, I just like being a nitpicking ass-hole at times. Especially when some one does it to me first.
i see your point el. there's no comparrison. but inner city NY is 24/7 violence. and for the people that do witness either a friend being blown up by an ied or their best friend be torn apart by a drunk driver; i can see them having ptsd. but i also ask what about those coming home from WWII? they saw similar things and those in concentration camps seen worse. how were they able to come home and go to work? ptsd used to be a serious condition. now every day life is reason for ptsd. i was diagnosed with it for having surgery. my friend was diagnosed with it after seeing a child run over by a prison van in downtown phoenix. if you see someone murdered; you get ptsd. the only requirements now is you have to be stressed after seeing a traumatic incident. look at rosie O'fatass. she was 3 states away when columbine happened.
my son is on his way to iraq and a nephew just returned from 2 tours. i also saw a documentory where gang members are enlisting to learn to fight on american streets. what a great set-up to have the government pay you and also earn illegal money on the side.
yes; we have good soldiers there and we have bad ones. 50% is an insane amount though. vietnam was a cut throat war where babies were booby trapped with explosives. i'd expect to see a higher number for that war.
i don't think ww2 is a good comparison b/c time were a lot different back then...ppl were not as open w/ their emotions as they are today.
there's also white supremicists joining to get training, as well
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Comments
I've seen some fairly crazy shit. I had a guy die right beside me from a heart attack...wierd...he kept looking at me and I just knew he was dying. I've found 2 drowned people on two different occasions...the one guy had been nibbled on by quite a bit by fish...that or he was turning into stew. I've watched a guy burn to death once. I think I'd have to see some really hardcore shit to get PTSD. Probably one of those snuffrape Iraqi housecall visits would do I imagine...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
I don't see how you got the 1/2 of troops suffer from some form of PTSD. The only figure I see that is close to that is here,... "and 35 to 52 percent said they suffered from one or more symptoms common to PTSD -- including social withdrawal, isolation, apathy, insomnia and anxiety -- during or after their assignments." And that was on the high end.
Does one or more symptom mean you have PTSD? Shit, I am feeling pretty apathetic and withdrawn right now. Does that mean I has PTSD.
Maybe you got it from this.... "Preliminary results from the State Department survey suggest that it may affect some 40 percent or more, similar to what has been reported for the U.S. military,". But this is still less than half.
So why trump up the number?
Second our troops are pretty strong, and the military has a pretty good counseling system. The Army has recognized the PTSD problem.
Some soldiers don't want to go because they think it might hurt the carrier, but the military is addressing those fears. Soldiers can go to counseling and it will not be put into their records.
I know a couple soldiers that reached their point while over there. The soldiers went to some counseling and they are fine now.
We can put them in that environment because it is their job. It is their job to do the hard, nasty, selfless stuff so that others can live in comfort.
how are they doing this in iraq????
what is their job? nation building? funny, georgie said that wasn't their job or role...but when it comes to protecting valuable interests.....
3/4 want us out of their fucking country. what would you do if someone was over here and 3/4 of americans wanted them out and saw them as only a negative?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I think you are confusing me with someone else. I have only been to Phoenix once and nothing traumatic happened, unless you count watching the 2nd Charlie's Angles movie. Either way this is the first time I have ever mentioned my trip through Phoenix on this board.
When I said we put them in those situations because it is they job I was speaking more generally. I was not specifically refering the current Iraq campaign. Putting up with shit, being uncomfortable, being away from their family, is part of what a soldier does.
Whether or not they should be there is a different topic.
doh! the phoenix part was supposed to be in a reply to onelongsong...
oh, you were speaking gernerally?? b/c i thought this thread was specifically about what they go through in iraq?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
while i've never been to phoenix i have trouble believing it is a rational side by side comparison...are you saying looking at phoenix is like looking in a mirror w/ iraq??? for real!?
haaaa
i'm sure it's violent there, but on your trips have you ever....had your friends car in front of you get blown up by an ied? had your friend shot next to you by a sniper or 'small arms fire'??
also, are you in that situation pretty much 24hrs a day? for 18 months or more?? if so, then you are a fool to stay!
it's a perpetual state of this shit! not just a business trip to town!!! again, have great trouble thinking your terror of some business trips is anywhere near comparable to 24hrs a day for 18 months of so much more shit than you will find happening to you in phonenix (not to say there some bad shit doesn't happen there)
it's not comparable
not even close
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
...
On behalf of a grateful Nation... we think you soldiers are full of shit. Just get back to work at the Tire Shop and quit complaining. Here is an 'I Support The Troops' magnet to show our gratitude.
Hail, Hail!!!
i see your point el. there's no comparrison. but inner city NY is 24/7 violence. and for the people that do witness either a friend being blown up by an ied or their best friend be torn apart by a drunk driver; i can see them having ptsd. but i also ask what about those coming home from WWII? they saw similar things and those in concentration camps seen worse. how were they able to come home and go to work? ptsd used to be a serious condition. now every day life is reason for ptsd. i was diagnosed with it for having surgery. my friend was diagnosed with it after seeing a child run over by a prison van in downtown phoenix. if you see someone murdered; you get ptsd. the only requirements now is you have to be stressed after seeing a traumatic incident. look at rosie O'fatass. she was 3 states away when columbine happened.
my son is on his way to iraq and a nephew just returned from 2 tours. i also saw a documentory where gang members are enlisting to learn to fight on american streets. what a great set-up to have the government pay you and also earn illegal money on the side.
yes; we have good soldiers there and we have bad ones. 50% is an insane amount though. vietnam was a cut throat war where babies were booby trapped with explosives. i'd expect to see a higher number for that war.
if they were here to bring freedom and democracy as they did in WWII when they brought freedom to europe when it was in the control of a dictator. i would want the same freedoms granted to the rest of the world. i would see that they never took land but gave the land back to the people and helped them rebuild. they helped them become a bigger and better nation then they were. they gave loans that only one nation repayed. poland was the only country to repay them yet they still help. i would know that if my country ever had a disaster; they would be there to help.
oh.. ok I was a little confused.
Firstly:
I was saying that generally because PTSD is not something new to the Iraq war. Soldiers dealing with fucked up shit is not something new to the Iraq war. I was trying to make the point that it is a Soldiers job to go into bad environments.
My overall point is, saying we should bring the soldiers home because they are dealing with things that happen in war is not a valid reason to bring them home. It would be like saying firefighters should not leave the fire station because they will have to deal with fire.
There are valid reasons to bring the soldiers home. Soldiers getting PTSD is not one of them.
Secondly
The study said
The best example of an "unaccompanied post" is any post in Korea. Afganistan is an example of a dangerous assignment that families are not allowed to go to with the soldiers.
So the study you used is not specifically about what soldiers go through in Iraq. But I understand what you are getting at, I just like being a nitpicking ass-hole at times. Especially when some one does it to me first.
i don't think ww2 is a good comparison b/c time were a lot different back then...ppl were not as open w/ their emotions as they are today.
there's also white supremicists joining to get training, as well
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way