So all it takes is the presence of U.S. soldiers to lead to this kind of sectarian violence? I am not talking about attacks on U.S. troops, I am talking about Iraqis killing Iraqis. The sectarian problem in Iraq is not an American creation, and if U.S. troops left, the problem would probably get even worse.
one group of Iraqis would win and take control and it would stop. The problem is that we don't respect Iraq's ability to rule itself. Somehow, we beleive they are better off in this lawless state.
I would say it does...to step outside of what one has been taught, to seriously look at one's own country and the choices of it's leaders takes critical thinking...
lapping up everything the powers-that-be say, not asking questions, not seek accountalbility is the easy and simple way out...
Your first paragraph sounds good. I just don't think that is what happens. At least not with the majority of lefty posters on the MT. In the end it always comes down to the US blame game as silly assertions in this thread have shown (ex. no toture in Iraq before the US invasion). I agree with your second paragraph as well.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
They actually back the attacks on US forces? Whoa! Isn't that like taking a poll of Yanks on 912 and seeing if they want to discuss the world policies? Instead of their other option. I can't imagine how the Iraqi people feel this way.
one group of Iraqis would win and take control and it would stop. The problem is that we don't respect Iraq's ability to rule itself. Somehow, we beleive they are better off in this lawless state.
They actually back the attacks on US forces? Whoa! Isn't that like taking a poll of Yanks on 912 and seeing if they want to discuss the world policies? Instead of their other option. I can't imagine how the Iraqi people feel this way.
i think herein lies the problem. people can't understand how the iraqis feel this way. the fact is, they do! Its kind of like how we can't understand how anyone couldn't like pearl jam.
our campaign of winning the hearts and minds has obviously failed, along with this entire war plan. If we haven't convinced them by now, we never will. We need to take their opinions into accoutn when we talk about the future of our involvement there.
yes, the US destabilized Iraq, we agree on that...however, I think where we may differ is this: the US had no plan for what to do after the removal of Saddam...I feel if you are going to break something, you should be prepared to fix it...you see, what is going on now is a horrible, i.e. blaming the Iraqi people for the results of a war forced upon them...the US broke Iraq, with no plan to fix Iraq, therefore, they (meaning those who pushed for, supported, created, had part it) should fix it...I read a quote somewhere, "you got us in, how are you going to get us out"...one has to admit, "stay the course" is not a plan...therefore, "more of the same" is not going to get it done...
how's that...?
I agree that the "exit plan", such that it is, is not very good. Again, though ... The sectarian violence does not exist because of a bad exit plan. I have no problems blaming the U.S. for PART of the mess. A big part. Maybe I should have made that clear from the beginning. But at some point, the Iraqis are going to have to stop killing one another. Maybe Abuskedti is right, and that point can only come after the U.S. leaves.
Your first paragraph sounds good. I just don't think that is what happens. At least not with the majority of lefty posters on the MT. In the end it always comes down to the US blame game as silly assertions in this thread have shown (ex. no toture in Iraq before the US invasion). I agree with your second paragraph as well.
I have to agree with you, as well...there are people on both sides, who have extreme views, beliefs, and perceptions of what has happend, is happening, and what should happen from here...I would have to say, though, I do have to disagree with use of the word "majority" and "always"...I would say that the majority of those on the MT, who lean to left are fair and seek to see both sides...and there are some on the right who do the same...
one group of Iraqis would win and take control and it would stop. The problem is that we don't respect Iraq's ability to rule itself. Somehow, we beleive they are better off in this lawless state.
Yeah but America does not want that b/c if they leave I for one believe that the group that takes power will be very anti-American.....therefore regardless what the USA does it is a lose-lose in my opinion...but as a nation the leaders should take responsiiblity for what their creation has turned into.....plus to not consider the hostility of rival sects that are present in Iraq is pure idiotic especially from those running the country...this problem was well stated before the war...and to say it was not means you were not listening b/c I sure heard it.....the US is not to blame for everything but they indirectly got this going and should prepare for the fallback......which is another regime in Iraq with higher anti-American sentiments than before.....which I hope does not occur but at the present rate I wouldnt be surprised....
Yeah but America does not want that b/c if they leave I for one believe that the group that takes power will be very anti-American.....therefore regardless what the USA does it is a lose-lose in my opinion...but as a nation the leaders should take responsiiblity for what their creation has turned into.....plus to not consider the hostility of rival sects that are present in Iraq is pure idiotic especially from those running the country...this problem was well stated before the war...and to say it was not means you were not listening b/c I sure heard it.....the US is not to blame for everything but they indirectly got this going and should prepare for the fallback......which is another regime in Iraq with higher anti-American sentiments than before.....which I hope does not occur but at the present rate I wouldnt be surprised....
And because America does not want that.. its ok to just allow thousands of innocent Iraqis to die violently every month.
Just look at the realitiy of the situation over there...
We are not Arabic and we are not Muslims... we will NEVER be accepted over there.
The only ones that want us to stay are the ones who are making a play for power and/or money. Their politicians are a joke... they make our politicians look like truth telling angels. Chalibi... that fucker lied to us about Hussein's capabilities and like dicks, we believed him. Now, he is the Minister of the Interior and the Oil Minister... exactly what he wanted and knew he could only get ifHussein was out of the way.
And their joke of a piece of shit army... your tax dollars are paying their wages. If they weren't getting paid, they wouldn't be enlisting. To them, the Army is a job, not a calling.
We are basically tightening the screws on a boiler... if we leave, the fucking place is going to explode. If we stay, the violence will continue to seep through the gaps and burn us... but, either way, we are doing nothing to cool the fires that are fueling this thing.
...
Add... I know that ALL countries go through a period of instability and violence and eventually settle down... and Iraq will get there someday. But, the variables are the level of violence that will occur and what will Iraq settle in to. The violence will be a long, protracted one where we'll lose a couple og Marines here and a couple of National Guardsmen there on a weekly basis... but, what will Iraq end up as? A moderate Arab State that is a trade partner... or a Shi'ite controlled state that will introduce more Islamic law into its society and look more like Iran?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm no supporter of the Iraq war, but this is just bullshit. Saddam and his thug sons committed their fair share of toture and rape long before we arrived.
...
What if he was torturing and raping the same people who are attacking and killing our soldiers and the same ones that support the attacks on our guys.
...
Wouldn't that make Hussein a 'Good guy'?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
one group of Iraqis would win and take control and it would stop. The problem is that we don't respect Iraq's ability to rule itself. Somehow, we beleive they are better off in this lawless state.
Your first paragraph sounds good. I just don't think that is what happens. At least not with the majority of lefty posters on the MT. In the end it always comes down to the US blame game as silly assertions in this thread have shown (ex. no toture in Iraq before the US invasion). I agree with your second paragraph as well.
This point is worth thinking about ...
i think herein lies the problem. people can't understand how the iraqis feel this way. the fact is, they do! Its kind of like how we can't understand how anyone couldn't like pearl jam.
our campaign of winning the hearts and minds has obviously failed, along with this entire war plan. If we haven't convinced them by now, we never will. We need to take their opinions into accoutn when we talk about the future of our involvement there.
I agree that the "exit plan", such that it is, is not very good. Again, though ... The sectarian violence does not exist because of a bad exit plan. I have no problems blaming the U.S. for PART of the mess. A big part. Maybe I should have made that clear from the beginning. But at some point, the Iraqis are going to have to stop killing one another. Maybe Abuskedti is right, and that point can only come after the U.S. leaves.
I have to agree with you, as well...there are people on both sides, who have extreme views, beliefs, and perceptions of what has happend, is happening, and what should happen from here...I would have to say, though, I do have to disagree with use of the word "majority" and "always"...I would say that the majority of those on the MT, who lean to left are fair and seek to see both sides...and there are some on the right who do the same...
Yeah but America does not want that b/c if they leave I for one believe that the group that takes power will be very anti-American.....therefore regardless what the USA does it is a lose-lose in my opinion...but as a nation the leaders should take responsiiblity for what their creation has turned into.....plus to not consider the hostility of rival sects that are present in Iraq is pure idiotic especially from those running the country...this problem was well stated before the war...and to say it was not means you were not listening b/c I sure heard it.....the US is not to blame for everything but they indirectly got this going and should prepare for the fallback......which is another regime in Iraq with higher anti-American sentiments than before.....which I hope does not occur but at the present rate I wouldnt be surprised....
Well they got this part right. Baghdad could look like Irvine and we'll still be there...
And because America does not want that.. its ok to just allow thousands of innocent Iraqis to die violently every month.
We are not Arabic and we are not Muslims... we will NEVER be accepted over there.
The only ones that want us to stay are the ones who are making a play for power and/or money. Their politicians are a joke... they make our politicians look like truth telling angels. Chalibi... that fucker lied to us about Hussein's capabilities and like dicks, we believed him. Now, he is the Minister of the Interior and the Oil Minister... exactly what he wanted and knew he could only get ifHussein was out of the way.
And their joke of a piece of shit army... your tax dollars are paying their wages. If they weren't getting paid, they wouldn't be enlisting. To them, the Army is a job, not a calling.
We are basically tightening the screws on a boiler... if we leave, the fucking place is going to explode. If we stay, the violence will continue to seep through the gaps and burn us... but, either way, we are doing nothing to cool the fires that are fueling this thing.
...
Add... I know that ALL countries go through a period of instability and violence and eventually settle down... and Iraq will get there someday. But, the variables are the level of violence that will occur and what will Iraq settle in to. The violence will be a long, protracted one where we'll lose a couple og Marines here and a couple of National Guardsmen there on a weekly basis... but, what will Iraq end up as? A moderate Arab State that is a trade partner... or a Shi'ite controlled state that will introduce more Islamic law into its society and look more like Iran?
Hail, Hail!!!
What if he was torturing and raping the same people who are attacking and killing our soldiers and the same ones that support the attacks on our guys.
...
Wouldn't that make Hussein a 'Good guy'?
Hail, Hail!!!