More American racism against Muslims...

cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,447
edited November 2006 in A Moving Train
Er....wait a minute

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/11/17/dutch.burkas.ap/index.html

I thought Europe was perfect. ;)
hippiemom = goodness
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Call me racist all you want, but i totally agree with that...

    "THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) -- The Dutch government, facing re-election next week, said Friday it plans to draw up legislation "as soon as possible" banning the head-to-toe garment known as burqas and other clothing that covers the entire face in public places."
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,447
    Call me racist all you want, but i totally agree with that...

    "THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) -- The Dutch government, facing re-election next week, said Friday it plans to draw up legislation "as soon as possible" banning the head-to-toe garment known as burqas and other clothing that covers the entire face in public places."


    Racist.




















    u asked me to
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Call me racist all you want, but i totally agree with that...

    "THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) -- The Dutch government, facing re-election next week, said Friday it plans to draw up legislation "as soon as possible" banning the head-to-toe garment known as burqas and other clothing that covers the entire face in public places."
    Sure, but how much of that has to do with you being on the opposite end of the spectrum? I hear there are some nude beaches in your area.... :D
  • aoifeaoife Posts: 126
    Call me racist all you want, but i totally agree with that...

    "THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) -- The Dutch government, facing re-election next week, said Friday it plans to draw up legislation "as soon as possible" banning the head-to-toe garment known as burqas and other clothing that covers the entire face in public places."
    do you not realise that is totally ignorant of a different culture and way of life
    "If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin castle, unless you set about the organisation of the socialist republic then all of your efforts would have been in vain. England will still rule you through her capitalists ,landlords and commercial institutions"
  • Racist.




















    u asked me to

    no problem, i think Burka shouldn't exist in the first place, not talking about the veil on the head, that is even damn sexy.
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • Sure, but how much of that has to do with you being on the opposite end of the spectrum? I hear there are some nude beaches in your area.... :D

    hehe, Montreal is not St-Tropez, it's cold up here right now... and damn rainy (3,7 sun hours in the last 14 days, depressing). There are some nude beaches around but not much, and some nudist campground, and some nude strippers club, and some swingers club, whatever you like. :)
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • aoife wrote:
    do you not realise that is totally ignorant of a different culture and way of life

    not sure it makes me ignorant about a different culture, but sure i don't understand the Burka. If you can prove me that most women are wearing it on their own will, then i'll agree with you that it is just another fashion items. Maybe yes it can be seen as ignorant, but the feminist male in me is stronger than the religious belief male in me.
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • dg1979usdg1979us Posts: 568
    aoife wrote:
    do you not realise that is totally ignorant of a different culture and way of life


    I wouldnt say its ignorance. The burkha is more or less a sign of oppression. By tolerating the burkha you are more or less tolerating the oppression of women. If the woman just feels more comfortable wearing it, then more power to her, but if she is wearing it out of fear or intimidation then thats a different story.
  • dg1979us wrote:
    I wouldnt say its ignorance. The burkha is more or less a sign of oppression. By tolerating the burkha you are more or less tolerating the oppression of women. If the woman just feels more comfortable wearing it, then more power to her, but if she is wearing it out of fear or intimidation then thats a different story.

    yeah that's also my opinion, thanks for making it clear :)
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • enharmonicenharmonic Posts: 1,917
    Last I checked, "Muslim" was not a race.
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    dg1979us wrote:
    I wouldnt say its ignorance. The burkha is more or less a sign of oppression.
    It's only a sign of oppression using your own culturally unique meaning of oppression, and how you can't fathom people voluntarily living with a different set of morals from your own. You are tyring to transfer your morals onto another culture and I think that's wrong. I wouldn't say racist but definitely verging on xenophobia.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • NMyTreeNMyTree Posts: 2,374
    Kudos to the people of the Netherlands!!!
  • EbizzieEbizzie Posts: 240
    surferdude wrote:
    It's only a sign of oppression using your own culturally unique meaning of oppression, and how you can't fathom people voluntarily living with a different set of morals from your own. You are tyring to transfer your morals onto another culture and I think that's wrong. I wouldn't say racist but definitely verging on xenophobia.


    Sooo, what you're really saying is that you support the Muslim treatment of women?

    I'm not trying to dog you, I understand your point but you must also understand how easily your comment can be turned into my ridiculous question. This is why liberals are demonized by many Americans, this attitude that there is no right or wrong, good or evil. Something as disrespectful to human freedoms as forcing a woman to be covered head-to-toe in public is considered acceptable by the far left being it's just "their morals". Do you also feel cannibalism should be accepted? Genocide and sectarian violence? Those are components of some cultures' moralities. Worse yet, someone who says that these things are wrong, "women shouldn't have to be covered head-to-toe in public", is labeled as a racist and xenophobe?!?!?

    Is there just no common ground amongst people? Does every stand someone takes have to lie in the corner of revolutionary left or the radical right? This, to me, seems like a pretty cut and dry case of wrongness and clear oppression of human rights. I think that 95% of non-Muslims would probably agree with me, as well as a large portion of Muslims themselves. And yet you're going to label all of us "xenophobes"? I don't get it, man.
    "Worse than traitors in arms are the men who pretend loyalty to the flag, feast and fatten on the misfortunes of the nation while patriotic blood is crimsoning the plains." -- Abraham Lincoln
  • dg1979usdg1979us Posts: 568
    surferdude wrote:
    It's only a sign of oppression using your own culturally unique meaning of oppression, and how you can't fathom people voluntarily living with a different set of morals from your own. You are tyring to transfer your morals onto another culture and I think that's wrong. I wouldn't say racist but definitely verging on xenophobia.


    Excuse me but equality of the sexes is most definately better than the mistreatment of one sex. In many muslim societies women are forced to wear veils, are forced to walk behind men, have no chance of being leaders in their society, etc etc. It isnt voluntary, its law. You arent going to convince me that the oppression of women is just a cultural difference that I dont understand, its sexism and its oppression and and I have no problem saying the western worlds treatment of women is far superior to that of many Islamic nations. Like I said, if a muslim woman in Europe wants to wear a veil, I think that should be her right. But keep in mind she might choose to wear it out of intimidation or fear because of the way things were in her home country.
  • aoifeaoife Posts: 126
    not sure it makes me ignorant about a different culture, but sure i don't understand the Burka. If you can prove me that most women are wearing it on their own will, then i'll agree with you that it is just another fashion items. Maybe yes it can be seen as ignorant, but the feminist male in me is stronger than the religious belief male in me.
    you know most of those women are proud of their religion and believe in it and what they are wearing who are you to tell them that they are being opressed and dont want to wear it. they have their own opinions and beliefs that you dont understand because you come from a different background. i dont understand either but at least im not trying to apply my set of values and beliefs to a different culture. if you ask me your being sexist by telling these women what they believe in is wrong and by implying that they are weak. many of these are educated women who should be allowed wear what they want
    "If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin castle, unless you set about the organisation of the socialist republic then all of your efforts would have been in vain. England will still rule you through her capitalists ,landlords and commercial institutions"
  • NMyTreeNMyTree Posts: 2,374
    aoife wrote:
    you know most of those women are proud of their religion and believe in it and what they are wearing who are you to tell them that they are being opressed and dont want to wear it. they have their own opinions and beliefs that you dont understand because you come from a different background. i dont understand either but at least im not trying to apply my set of values and beliefs to a different culture. if you ask me your being sexist by telling these women what they believe in is wrong and by implying that they are weak. many of these are educated women who should be allowed wear what they want


    Are non-Muslims living in Islamic states (countries) permitted to dress, behave and practice their faith without restrictions of any kind?
  • aoifeaoife Posts: 126
    NMyTree wrote:
    Are non-Muslims living in Islamic states (countries) permitted to dress, behave and practice their faith without restrictions of any kind?
    so if you disagree with the way it is there why do you support the same thing happening in europe and the west in general
    "If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin castle, unless you set about the organisation of the socialist republic then all of your efforts would have been in vain. England will still rule you through her capitalists ,landlords and commercial institutions"
  • NMyTreeNMyTree Posts: 2,374
    aoife wrote:
    so if you disagree with the way it is there why do you support the same thing happening in europe and the west in general

    Because the Islamic culture promotes and enforces a highly restrictive and oppressive set of guidelines, rules, regulations and policies on themselves and on all non-mulsims who live amongst them. Permitting them to impose their will and culture in non-Islamic countries has proven itself to be a highly dangerous, violent and disruptive approach to social integration.

    If they demand non-muslims integrate into their society and culture under strict and prohibitive rules; why would they expect non-Islamic countries and societies to permit Muslims to ignore and disregard the guidelines, rules, regulations and policies these host non-Islamic countries/societies have established and enforce?

    Muslims have long considered Islam, themselves and their religion above the laws and rules of all other non-Islamic countries, while practicing double-standards and hypocrisy when it comes to their own values being respected and honored by non-muslims, in Islamic states/countries.

    When you travel to different countries or move to live in other countries, you must be willing and committed to living within the rules of their society and culture.
  • aoifeaoife Posts: 126
    NMyTree wrote:
    Because the Islamic culture promotes and enforces a highly restrictive and oppressive set of guidelines, rules, regulations and policies on themselves and on all non-mulsims who live amongst them. Permitting them to impose their will and culture in non-Islamic countries has proven itself to be a highly dangerous, violent and disruptive approach to social integration.

    If they demand non-muslims integrate into their society and culture under strict and prohibitive rules; why would they expect non-Islamic countries and societies to permit Muslims to ignore and disregard the guidelines, rules, regulations and policies these host non-Islamic countries/societies have established and enforce?

    Muslims have long considered Islam, themselves and their religion above the laws and rules of all other non-Islamic countries, while practicing double-standards and hypocrisy when it comes to their own values being respected and honored by non-muslims, in Islamic states/countries.

    When you travel to different countries or move to live in other countries, you must be willing and committed to living within the rules of their society and culture.
    imposing themselves? im sorry how does the way a muslim woman dresses impose on you and the way you live your life?
    also its not like there was a rule before they came that people could not dress according to their religion, that only came recently in order to discriminate against muslims, wearing the dress these women do does not pose a threat to society and so there should not be a law against it. people should be allowed to dress how they wish as long as it isnt indecent and this is anything but
    "If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin castle, unless you set about the organisation of the socialist republic then all of your efforts would have been in vain. England will still rule you through her capitalists ,landlords and commercial institutions"
  • Any law that controls an individual's appearance is fundamentally flawed. How is this anything but fascist?

    So the motive for wearing it is what's at hand here. As soon a mind-reading device is invented they should get right on that.
    hate was just a legend
  • dg1979usdg1979us Posts: 568
    Any law that controls an individual's appearance is fundamentally flawed. How is this anything but fascist?

    So the motive for wearing it is what's at hand here. As soon a mind-reading device is invented they should get right on that.


    I dont really disagree with that, and I dont really agree with the law. But that still doesnt change the fact that the veil is a sign of oppression and I really dont see how that can be argued. But if a woman chooses to wear it, then I believe she should. But in saying that, I can also understand business or schools not allowing it and things of that nature.
  • dg1979us wrote:
    I dont really disagree with that, and I dont really agree with the law. But that still doesnt change the fact that the veil is a sign of oppression and I really dont see how that can be argued. But if a woman chooses to wear it, then I believe she should. But in saying that, I can also understand business or schools not allowing it and things of that nature.

    What if the wearer is a devout muslim? It seems as if every woman who wears a burka is automatically labeled as oppressed, clearly a simple generalization that symbolizes the misunderstanding of Islam in the western world. If this is the policy then businesses and schools should be consistent and ban all other religious symbols. If not then it's obviously a discrimination based on a specific religion.
    hate was just a legend
  • aoifeaoife Posts: 126
    dg1979us wrote:
    I dont really disagree with that, and I dont really agree with the law. But that still doesnt change the fact that the veil is a sign of oppression and I really dont see how that can be argued. But if a woman chooses to wear it, then I believe she should. But in saying that, I can also understand business or schools not allowing it and things of that nature.
    to us it might seem like oppression because if somebody suddenly told us to wear it it would be opressive because we arent from that background and dont understand but maybe they see it as being protected from exploitation such as pornography and things like that
    "If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin castle, unless you set about the organisation of the socialist republic then all of your efforts would have been in vain. England will still rule you through her capitalists ,landlords and commercial institutions"
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,447
    dg1979us wrote:
    I dont really disagree with that, and I dont really agree with the law. But that still doesnt change the fact that the veil is a sign of oppression and I really dont see how that can be argued. But if a woman chooses to wear it, then I believe she should. But in saying that, I can also understand business or schools not allowing it and things of that nature.


    So are some other symbols that people wear on clothing, etc. all the time...

    but as soon as you make laws telling one group what to wear...you are already halfway down that slippery slope.

    It's just plain wrong...these women already have the right not to wear them if they choose not to...and they have laws that protect them if they are 'hurt' in someway for not wearing them...should end there.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • NMyTreeNMyTree Posts: 2,374
    Muslims in several countries around the world are working feverishly to change and impose new laws, which embody Islamic Law, in their non-Islamic host countries.

    Many people around the world, in many countries are fed up with Muslim's violent and bullying tactics and agenda.

    If you don't think this has an effect on the host country's non-muslim population and culture, then, you're either kidding yourself or you have not been paying attention.

    Draw a cartoon, make a joke. Just don't use Islam or Muslims as the punchline, right?

    How many people were injured or murdered and how many buildings and personal property were destroyed, as a result of Iran's Cartoon Contest?
  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    They should be able to wear whatever they want.
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


    naděje umírá poslední
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    Western women visiting countries under Sharia law generally have to conform to rules of modesty. I'd like to see muslim women who come west give a little quid pro quo and put on a t-shirt and levis. Lighten up and live a little.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • BlancheBlanche Posts: 247
    As much as we, in western society, think the veil, the very long tunic, the long sleeves, the covered neck, the burka are symbols of repression, believe it or not, many Muslim women are used to these garments and are uncomfortable once they are unveiled or wearing short skirts or sleeveless tops.
    For some somen, wearing the hijab (veil) is actually liberating. They're not judged because of their appearance according to the latest style and they are not the object of catcalls and remarks when in public.

    However, I think that one must adapt one's self to the customs and culture of the country where he lives. Therefore, it's normal for Muslim women to dress like their Dutch contemporaries, not just for reasons fo identification or communication or "safety".
    However, passing a law won't help educate people about their cultural differences and how they won't be bad people in the eyes of their (abrahamic, sikh, zoroastrian...) god by bending the rules a little.
  • If someone does not want to assimilate, then they should move back to their native country. You can still be different, unique, and maintain your culture and customs while adapting to the lifestyle of the current country you call home.
    The less you know, the more you believe.
  • EbizzieEbizzie Posts: 240
    Is this law really about the burqa or is it about dissuading muslims from moving to Holland?
    "Worse than traitors in arms are the men who pretend loyalty to the flag, feast and fatten on the misfortunes of the nation while patriotic blood is crimsoning the plains." -- Abraham Lincoln
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