U S Big 3 Auto

inmytree

MrBrian wrote:

Or they could just start out by building better cars.

exactly...

I bought my very first brand new car in March of this year. I researched for months...I wanted a car that would get 30+ in the city, in the $15,000 range, with a 5 Speed and Cruise Control....

The Aveo was the only US maker fitting that criteria ...I didn't even bother to test drive that thing...I looked at the Dodge Caliber...the interior was cheap and crappy...

I'm VERY happy with my Honda Fit...

MrBrian

blackredyellow wrote:

Didn't they get one already?


Oh, right... that was wooden arrow makers.

That was a really well timed response and executed perfectly.

jbalicki10

MrBrian wrote:

Of course. Always exceptions. But I was speaking in more general terms.

It's not really an exception. People don't take care of their cars and want new ones.There are trucks on the road that are 400,000 plus miles on. Go to Cuba, you'll see cars from the 40s-50s still working because people are forced to take care of their cars.

ajedigecko

blackredyellow wrote:

Didn't they get one already?


Oh, right... that was wooden arrow makers.

good point....who did the wooden arrow makers need a bail out from? were the plactic toy gun makers putting them out of business?

for thread integrity though........why do people act surprised when jobs are lost? if the economy is strong for 8 years, it is only practical that it will be weak for 8 years.
and for lessons learned.....people need to live below their means.

ajedigecko

jbalicki10 wrote:

It's not really an exception. People don't take care of their cars and want new ones.There are trucks on the road that are 400,000 plus miles on. Go to Cuba, you'll see cars from the 40s-50s still working because people are forced to take care of their cars.

good point....and they probably have their cars paid off so they can fix them when they do break.

MrBrian

jbalicki10 wrote:

It's not really an exception. People don't take care of their cars and want new ones.There are trucks on the road that are 400,000 plus miles on. Go to Cuba, you'll see cars from the 40s-50s still working because people are forced to take care of their cars.

Of course thats true. About taking care of them. But are you now talking about a car being done when it just cant move anymore? Or what?

Because we can debate about the different levels of old and finished.
Remember, those cars in Cuba and other 3rd world countries, yes they may run, but in many cases they can hardly even brake and exhaust fumes tend to run through the cabin.

Now we are getting into a very subjective level of what is 'still working'.

jbalicki10

MrBrian wrote:

Of course thats true. About taking care of them. But are you now talking about a car being done when it just cant move anymore? Or what?

Because we can debate about the different levels of old and finished.
Remember, those cars in Cuba and other 3rd world countries, yes they may run, but in many cases they can hardly even brake and exhaust fumes tend to run through the cabin.

Now we are getting into a very subjective level of what is 'still working'.

The quality of cars/trucks from America and Japan are the same as of right now. People have a precieved notion from back in the early 70s and 80s American cars are inferior. They kept to this notion to this day. I believe consumer reports has stated this, however you have to pay them for the story (link).

MrBrian

For example look at the build quality. Compare them. They are not the same.
They tend to also not drive as well.

It's just way off to state that the cars are in the same league. But like I said exceptions do exist.

I will search for that article, i'll try and find it because I think it is wrong. I am curious to see what they are on about.

jbalicki10

MrBrian wrote:

For example look at the build quality. Compare them. They are not the same.
They tend to also not drive as well.

It's just way off to state that the cars are in the same league. But like I said exceptions do exist.

I will search for that article, i'll try and find it because I think it is wrong. I am curious to see what they are on about.

It was in consumer report last fall. Don't know which month though. Sorry. But it was interesting.

DriftingByTheStorm

From what i understand about the US automakers, the problem is NOT competitive labor, pricing, or vehicles ...

it is LEGACY COSTS.

In other words, AMERICAN FIRMS HAVE MADE COMMITMENTS TO PAY RETIRED EMPLOYEES A LIVING WAGE FOR THEIR LIFETIME OF SERVICE.

I'm not sure whether that fact alone is enough to warrant further bailout, but it is certainly commendable, no?

I have heard this repeated ad nauseum on CNBC ... the problem with the US automakers is LEGACY COSTS. It is NOT a lack of competitive advantage, as perceived by the domestic consumer.

Just throwing in 2 cents.

I will say that, if we lose even one of the big 3, we have some SERIOUS problems in our manufacturing sector. They are HEAVILY INTER-DEPENDENT enterprises. GM goes ... their suppliers go ...their suppliers are Ford's suppliers ... and when Ford's suppliers go ... so does Ford.

Its going to be a cluster fuck domino effect.

meistereder

The only time i drive American cars is when I rent cars during traveling. My experience with mid-sized American cars at least is they have lots of plastic and cheap-looking instrumentation. They also have lots of blind spots and are not intelligently laid out in terms of reaching for a control and it being where you would expect it to be. They also rattle a lot and the road noise is a lot more than comparable European or Japanese cars. I am just calling it like it is, in my experience.

MrBrian

meistereder wrote:

The only time i drive American cars is when I rent cars during traveling. My experience with mid-sized American cars at least is they have lots of plastic and cheap-looking instrumentation. They also have lots of blind spots and are not intelligently laid out in terms of reaching for a control and it being where you would expect it to be. They also rattle a lot and the road noise is a lot more than comparable European or Japanese cars. I am just calling it like it is, in my experience.

Ergonomics, something the American car makers have no idea about.

Pacomc79

meistereder wrote:

The only time i drive American cars is when I rent cars during traveling. My experience with mid-sized American cars at least is they have lots of plastic and cheap-looking instrumentation. They also have lots of blind spots and are not intelligently laid out in terms of reaching for a control and it being where you would expect it to be. They also rattle a lot and the road noise is a lot more than comparable European or Japanese cars. I am just calling it like it is, in my experience.

Tell me about it, I just negociated northern Ohio in a gigantic land yacht of a rental Impala. I have no idea why they built that car in that manner. You can't see out of it, it has tiny mirrors, and it's just unwieldy. Why should my Toyota truck be a better driver than a rental car?

Maybe we should just all drive BMW's? They make them in South Carolina anyway, Kia just built a plant in Georgia. Hundaai (I have no idea) has a plant in Alabama. Mercedes has a plant in SC as well I believe. Nissan Titans are built in Mississippi and i think Toyota actually is assymbled in Detroit.

American car makers just desided to throw all thier weight behind SUV's. Ok. Live by it, die by it I guess.

I know that the german automakers may build a better driver, but as far as all around cars... there aren't many better in history than the Honda Accord.

Strangest Tribe

beachdweller wrote:

So should we bail out the big three U S auto makers? We've done it before, and yet they have never been run well. What will change if we bail them out this time?

The other side is losing that many more jobs during this economic crisis. Looks like another 240,000 lost in the last month.

Here's how I look at it. We bailed out the banks for the bad credit we might as well bail out the big 3 for they essentially became lending institutions themselves. Plus I have $1200 GM dollars built up on my credit card I don't want to lose:)

meistereder

Pacomc79 wrote:

Tell me about it, I just negociated northern Ohio in a gigantic land yacht of a rental Impala. I have no idea why they built that car in that manner. You can't see out of it, it has tiny mirrors, and it's just unwieldy. Why should my Toyota truck be a better driver than a rental car?

Maybe we should just all drive BMW's? They make them in South Carolina anyway, Kia just built a plant in Georgia. Hundaai (I have no idea) has a plant in Alabama. Mercedes has a plant in SC as well I believe. Nissan Titans are built in Mississippi and i think Toyota actually is assymbled in Detroit.

American car makers just desided to throw all thier weight behind SUV's. Ok. Live by it, die by it I guess.

I know that the german automakers may build a better driver, but as far as all around cars... there aren't many better in history than the Honda Accord.

Land yacht. Love that term.

stuckinline

The United States, with current efficiency standards of 27.5 miles per gallon for cars and 22.2 per gallon for SUVs and small trucks, has lagged behind the rest of the developed world. In the European Union, automakers have agreed to voluntary increases in fuel-economy standards that next year will lift the average to 44.2 miles per gallon, according to the Pew Center on Global Climate Change. In Japan, average vehicle fuel economy tops 45 miles per gallon. China's level is in the mid-30s and projected to rise, propelled by government policy.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/21/AR2007062101026_pf.html

meistereder

And as to them throwing their money at SUV's, you are absolutely right. I don't know the numbers, but right before gas prices took off but when they were starting to crawl up, I remember reading an article about how US automakers were taking the gamble, and how their research showed that no matter what the gas prices were, "Americans want big, powerful cars!" So out they come with the bigger Yukons, the H3, etc.

Literally a year later, they were panicing and now the big advertising campaigns are "refuel America" etc. Cash back for gas. NOT buy better, more fuel efficient cars! But gimmicks.

As far as I am concerned, this was preventable by being innovative and forward thinking. Like so many other things, we dropped the ball.

MrBrian

Pacomc79 wrote:

Tell me about it, I just negociated northern Ohio in a gigantic land yacht of a rental Impala. I have no idea why they built that car in that manner. You can't see out of it, it has tiny mirrors, and it's just unwieldy. Why should my Toyota truck be a better driver than a rental car?

Maybe we should just all drive BMW's? They make them in South Carolina anyway, Kia just built a plant in Georgia. Hundaai (I have no idea) has a plant in Alabama. Mercedes has a plant in SC as well I believe. Nissan Titans are built in Mississippi and i think Toyota actually is assymbled in Detroit.

American car makers just desided to throw all thier weight behind SUV's. Ok. Live by it, die by it I guess.

I know that the german automakers may build a better driver, but as far as all around cars... there aren't many better in history than the Honda Accord.

haha!...land yacht.

I tell you something about buying BMWs, the ones made in the US,Germany or South Africa. They all come with included service. for 4 or 5 years. Rotors, Oil,brakes, the works.

What a great incentive to buy from them, even forgetting the fact that they make nice cars. Audi also has that service plan.

I also agree, the Honda Accord is one the best cars ever built.

meistereder

MrBrian wrote:

haha!...land yacht.

I tell you something about buying BMWs, the ones made in the US,Germany or South Africa. They all come with included service. for 4 or 5 years. Rotors, Oil,brakes, the works.

What a great incentive to buy from them, even forgetting the fact that they make nice cars. Audi also has that service plan.

I also agree, the Honda Accord is one the best cars ever built.

I've owned 3 BMWs and have always gotten terrific service and performance. You actually save money on oil services, etc., compared to comparably priced other cars.

MrBrian

meistereder wrote:

I've owned 3 BMWs and have always gotten terrific service and performance. You actually save money on oil services, etc., compared to comparably priced other cars.

Which Models?...

BMW cars also tend to also run about 10-15,000 miles between oil changes with the Synthetic oils. But that can infact go well past 20,000 miles without problems.