U S Big 3 Auto

beachdweller

So should we bail out the big three U S auto makers? We've done it before, and yet they have never been run well. What will change if we bail them out this time?

The other side is losing that many more jobs during this economic crisis. Looks like another 240,000 lost in the last month.

jimed14

I don't know if it's possible, but, if the US auto industry was somehow retooled and became the leader in alternative energy autos ... it would be pretty huge for the U.S.

Not sure how we get there, but, it's a nice (pipe?) dream ...

jbalicki10

beachdweller wrote:

So should we bail out the big three U S auto makers? We've done it before, and yet they have never been run well. What will change if we bail them out this time?

The other side is losing that many more jobs during this economic crisis. Looks like another 240,000 lost in the last month.

We already gave them bailout money... They want even more? The more you give... the more they take...

nothinghead

Let's just keep propping them up...how could we go wrong with that?

"Fuck ingenuity, we don't need to work on creating better products or raising fuel efficiency to create a more desirable vehicle...let's just fire people and the government will give us money."

The money is in progress--in fuel efficiency and emissions enhancements. We need the auto industry, but not more than the auto industry has needed us the last decade. Maybe..maybe if they come up with a worthwhile proposal for getting themselves together, we help them. But it seems unlikely. We've been down this road before.

MrBrian

jimed14 wrote:

I don't know if it's possible, but, if the US auto industry was somehow retooled and became the leader in alternative energy autos ... it would be pretty huge for the U.S.

Not sure how we get there, but, it's a nice (pipe?) dream ...

Or they could just start out by building better cars.

jimed14

MrBrian wrote:

Or they could just start out by building better cars.

well, a plan to build these cars before we fund them is kind of a prerequisite to my statement.

jbalicki10

MrBrian wrote:

Or they could just start out by building better cars.

They are building the Chevy Volt which is an electric car. They did put a huge investment in it. Should be interesting if it takes off...

yoke

MrBrian wrote:

Or they could just start out by building better cars.

Whats wrong with the cars? Honestly, I don't understand this statement. I know plenty of people who have older and some newer American cars that are in great shape. Hell, I have a 2001 F150(I know its a truck but its still American) and its in great shape. Same with my wifes 2002 Escape.

I hear people say this all the time. I know plenty of people who had a fare share of POS Hondas,Toyotas and VW's. I think it goes both ways.

yoke

jbalicki10 wrote:

They are building the Chevy Volt which is an electric car. They did put a huge investment in it. Should be interesting if it takes off...

I think the last I heard its upwards of 45k or so now. It was supposed to be for the "every" man. I don't know to many people that can swing that price. Maybe in 10 years the price will come down on it. I am on the mailing list for the car so I get updates all the time.

MrBrian

yoke wrote:

Whats wrong with the cars? Honestly, I don't understand this statement. I know plenty of people who have older and some newer American cars that are in great shape. Hell, I have a 2001 F150(I know its a truck but its still American) and its in great shape. Same with my wifes 2002 Escape.

I hear people say this all the time. I know plenty of people who had a fare share of POS Hondas,Toyotas and VW's. I think it goes both ways.

I think if you compare them pound for pound, American cars are just behind in mainly ways...including quality,technology, performance, handling and whatever else.

and for some reason the seats and cup holders keep getting bigger, but that could be them trying to accommodate the ever growing American belly.

Interesting about VW, I know they had poor quality cars for some time. But thats quickly changing, plus they have pretty much been taken over by Porsche so expect big changes.

jimed14

yoke wrote:

I think the last I heard its upwards of 45k or so now. It was supposed to be for the "every" man. I don't know to many people that can swing that price. Maybe in 10 years the price will come down on it. I am on the mailing list for the car so I get updates all the time.

again, I look at it like the computer industy ... the first computers were clunky, big, not that powerful, and expensive ...

how about cell phones ... remember the size and price of these babies?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6AF5W26iLE&feature=related

MrBrian

jbalicki10 wrote:

They are building the Chevy Volt which is an electric car. They did put a huge investment in it. Should be interesting if it takes off...

Yeah, looks interesting, it had some major over heating issues. The car was catching fire I believe. But they say that problem is solved.

MrBrian

jimed14 wrote:

well, a plan to build these cars before we fund them is kind of a prerequisite to my statement.

I think they first need to understand that they build bad cars. Compared on average to the Germans and the Japanese.

jbalicki10

MrBrian wrote:

I think they first need to understand that they build bad cars. Compared on average to the Germans and the Japanese.

Not true, I still own my 96 chevy caprice and 99 ford ranger. Never had major problems.... People just don't like older cars thats all.

jbalicki10

yoke wrote:

I think the last I heard its upwards of 45k or so now. It was supposed to be for the "every" man. I don't know to many people that can swing that price. Maybe in 10 years the price will come down on it. I am on the mailing list for the car so I get updates all the time.

Crap, if its 45k its going to bomb... If it was 25k to 35k they got a winner..

yoke

MrBrian wrote:

I think if you compare them pound for pound, American cars are just behind in mainly ways...including quality,technology, performance, handling and whatever else.

and for some reason the seats and cup holders keep getting bigger, but that could be them trying to accommodate the ever growing American belly.

Interesting about VW, I know they had poor quality cars for some time. But thats quickly changing, plus they have pretty much been taken over by Porsche so expect big changes.

I can see your point but I have to disagree.. I love the US designs and builds(with the exception of Dodge Trucks). Don't get me wrong, if I could afford a Porsche I would get one but I can't. Plus I couldn't fit my tools in them and I am not tieing my longboard to the roof of one.

Okay then we disagree but oh well.

yoke

jimed14 wrote:

again, I look at it like the computer industy ... the first computers were clunky, big, not that powerful, and expensive ...

how about cell phones ... remember the size and price of these babies?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6AF5W26iLE&feature=related

I agree 100%, thats why I said ten years.. I remember my first cell phone back in 95 and I think it was the size of my hand and it had a wire antenna and the battery lasted about 1 hour. Hell my first computer was a Commodore 64(haha). I waited ten years and then I built my own. I was in "cyberspace" with my blazing 9.6 baud modem.

Technology does change and does gets better and cheaper. I will just have to wait for it.

ajedigecko

does anyone know if "wagon makers" asked for a bailout?

MrBrian

yoke wrote:

I can see your point but I have to disagree.. I love the US designs and builds(with the exception of Dodge Trucks). Don't get me wrong, if I could afford a Porsche I would get one but I can't. Plus I couldn't fit my tools in them and I am not tieing my longboard to the roof of one.

Okay then we disagree but oh well.

Ok, I do agree that the US makes a decent truck. Part of the time. But the Japanese Toyota Tundra is pretty good.

Well if you ever do get money for the Porsche, you know they are making a Hybrid Cayenne. Enough space for your tools and longboard right ontop

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/11/15/la-2007-porsche-cayenne-hybrid-goes-75mph-on-battery-power/

MrBrian

jbalicki10 wrote:

Not true, I still own my 96 chevy caprice and 99 ford ranger. Never had major problems.... People just don't like older cars thats all.

Of course. Always exceptions. But I was speaking in more general terms.

blackredyellow

ajedigecko wrote:

does anyone know if "wagon makers" asked for a bailout?

Didn't they get one already?


Oh, right... that was wooden arrow makers.

inmytree

MrBrian wrote:

Or they could just start out by building better cars.

exactly...

I bought my very first brand new car in March of this year. I researched for months...I wanted a car that would get 30+ in the city, in the $15,000 range, with a 5 Speed and Cruise Control....

The Aveo was the only US maker fitting that criteria ...I didn't even bother to test drive that thing...I looked at the Dodge Caliber...the interior was cheap and crappy...

I'm VERY happy with my Honda Fit...

MrBrian

blackredyellow wrote:

Didn't they get one already?


Oh, right... that was wooden arrow makers.

That was a really well timed response and executed perfectly.

jbalicki10

MrBrian wrote:

Of course. Always exceptions. But I was speaking in more general terms.

It's not really an exception. People don't take care of their cars and want new ones.There are trucks on the road that are 400,000 plus miles on. Go to Cuba, you'll see cars from the 40s-50s still working because people are forced to take care of their cars.

ajedigecko

blackredyellow wrote:

Didn't they get one already?


Oh, right... that was wooden arrow makers.

good point....who did the wooden arrow makers need a bail out from? were the plactic toy gun makers putting them out of business?

for thread integrity though........why do people act surprised when jobs are lost? if the economy is strong for 8 years, it is only practical that it will be weak for 8 years.
and for lessons learned.....people need to live below their means.

ajedigecko

jbalicki10 wrote:

It's not really an exception. People don't take care of their cars and want new ones.There are trucks on the road that are 400,000 plus miles on. Go to Cuba, you'll see cars from the 40s-50s still working because people are forced to take care of their cars.

good point....and they probably have their cars paid off so they can fix them when they do break.

MrBrian

jbalicki10 wrote:

It's not really an exception. People don't take care of their cars and want new ones.There are trucks on the road that are 400,000 plus miles on. Go to Cuba, you'll see cars from the 40s-50s still working because people are forced to take care of their cars.

Of course thats true. About taking care of them. But are you now talking about a car being done when it just cant move anymore? Or what?

Because we can debate about the different levels of old and finished.
Remember, those cars in Cuba and other 3rd world countries, yes they may run, but in many cases they can hardly even brake and exhaust fumes tend to run through the cabin.

Now we are getting into a very subjective level of what is 'still working'.

jbalicki10

MrBrian wrote:

Of course thats true. About taking care of them. But are you now talking about a car being done when it just cant move anymore? Or what?

Because we can debate about the different levels of old and finished.
Remember, those cars in Cuba and other 3rd world countries, yes they may run, but in many cases they can hardly even brake and exhaust fumes tend to run through the cabin.

Now we are getting into a very subjective level of what is 'still working'.

The quality of cars/trucks from America and Japan are the same as of right now. People have a precieved notion from back in the early 70s and 80s American cars are inferior. They kept to this notion to this day. I believe consumer reports has stated this, however you have to pay them for the story (link).

MrBrian

For example look at the build quality. Compare them. They are not the same.
They tend to also not drive as well.

It's just way off to state that the cars are in the same league. But like I said exceptions do exist.

I will search for that article, i'll try and find it because I think it is wrong. I am curious to see what they are on about.

jbalicki10

MrBrian wrote:

For example look at the build quality. Compare them. They are not the same.
They tend to also not drive as well.

It's just way off to state that the cars are in the same league. But like I said exceptions do exist.

I will search for that article, i'll try and find it because I think it is wrong. I am curious to see what they are on about.

It was in consumer report last fall. Don't know which month though. Sorry. But it was interesting.

DriftingByTheStorm

From what i understand about the US automakers, the problem is NOT competitive labor, pricing, or vehicles ...

it is LEGACY COSTS.

In other words, AMERICAN FIRMS HAVE MADE COMMITMENTS TO PAY RETIRED EMPLOYEES A LIVING WAGE FOR THEIR LIFETIME OF SERVICE.

I'm not sure whether that fact alone is enough to warrant further bailout, but it is certainly commendable, no?

I have heard this repeated ad nauseum on CNBC ... the problem with the US automakers is LEGACY COSTS. It is NOT a lack of competitive advantage, as perceived by the domestic consumer.

Just throwing in 2 cents.

I will say that, if we lose even one of the big 3, we have some SERIOUS problems in our manufacturing sector. They are HEAVILY INTER-DEPENDENT enterprises. GM goes ... their suppliers go ...their suppliers are Ford's suppliers ... and when Ford's suppliers go ... so does Ford.

Its going to be a cluster fuck domino effect.