Should there be public schools?

polaris

CorporateWhore wrote:

It's kind of like a higher quality market for healthcare develops when you don't let the government run it...oh, whoops. You're Canadian.

Maybe that's why Canadians come to America to get their healthcare. Because MARKETS offer better competition than government bureaucracy.

i still don't know who this markets guy is ... i do know that your understanding of our health care system is misguided ... i wonder how many canadians would trade our system for yours??

CaterinaA

Yes, definitely

In my opinion school (kindergarten, elementary and secondary education) should be free (well we pay it via our taxes) and available to every single kid of this planet. The benefits of having an educated population are infinite times larger than the monetary cost of publicly funded education.

Hundreds of studies show that poverty, criminality, violence and plenty of other negative externalities are inversely related to education. The more educated the people the better we are as a society. This is an oversimplification and overstilization of facts, but pretty much these are some of the most known benefits of education

CorporateWhore

polaris wrote:

i still don't know who this markets guy is ... i do know that your understanding of our health care system is misguided ... i wonder how many canadians would trade our system for yours??

Probably the ones who don't work would trade it.

polaris

CorporateWhore wrote:

Probably the ones who don't work would trade it.

uhhh ... i'll presume you are referring to americans ... in any case - i would guess that there would be more americans wanting our health care system (as imperfect as it is) then the other way around ...

CorporateWhore

polaris wrote:

uhhh ... i'll presume you are referring to americans ... in any case - i would guess that there would be more americans wanting our health care system (as imperfect as it is) then the other way around ...

Perhaps the minority who are uninsured might, but those who are insured wouldn't want crappy healthcare. Not by a longshot.

DCGARDEN

As one of the 5 conservative Pearl Jam fans apparently, I am not conservative when it comes to children. Any child, every child should be given not only the best education, but the best healthcare, no matter of race, religion, social standing or where they live in.

Now, if you ask me if an 30 year old adult should be given a check every month for nothing, then my friend you can kiss my hairy bean bag

But children, no. They deserve the best.

even flow?

CorporateWhore wrote:

Those who are not catholic or "priveleged" could form their own schools. Educational requirements would be developed on a school by school basis where markets determine what children must know. Since the market would conclude that people who have broad-ranging knowledge make the best employees, not much would be different from current school systems. Except, children would be better educated and standards would be more difficult.

So if I form my own school then it would be non of your business what I would teach the kids. Going by your standard. Why don't they teach religion at public schools? Anyway, we have seen how well your government likes (Branch Dividians for one) when a group goes off and does things their own way.

Funny you say about good education when you have a lobby in the States that stepped in and took a job away from a very good educator because of their view of a certain place in the world. Please come back and answer something a little better then "markets" having a control of education. Works well for people who can invest. And the others?

soulsinging

no. the experiment in mass education in america has been a total and utter failure. to analogize, the quality of an american public school education is equivalent to the quality of a mcdonald's hamburger. sure it's cheap, ubiquitous, and everyone can get one, but it's crap and doesn't nourish anybody.

polaris

CorporateWhore wrote:

Perhaps the minority who are uninsured might, but those who are insured wouldn't want crappy healthcare. Not by a longshot.

and what percentage of the population is that??

cornnifer

soulsinging wrote:

no. the experiment in mass education in america has been a total and utter failure. to analogize, the quality of an american public school education is equivalent to the quality of a mcdonald's hamburger. sure it's cheap, ubiquitous, and everyone can get one, but it's crap and doesn't nourish anybody.

Try telling that to the multitude of doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc. that have emerged from the public school system. i won't argue that there isn't a need for some tweaking of how public education is administered, but to say there should be no public education is to endorse a despicable policy of Social Darwinism that should make anyone ashamed.

cornnifer

CorporateWhore wrote:

Those who are not catholic or "priveleged" could form their own schools. Educational requirements would be developed on a school by school basis where markets determine what children must know. Since the market would conclude that people who have broad-ranging knowledge make the best employees, not much would be different from current school systems. Except, children would be better educated and standards would be more difficult.

You would expect a community that is "underpriveleged" (let's face it, underpriveleged is simply a polite way to say "broke as fuck") to form their own schools?! Sounds to me like Social Darwinism at its absolute most hideous.

MakingWaves

even flow? wrote:

And....if you are not catholic or privledged where are you supposed to go to get educated?

Just because you are catholic doesn't mean you automatically get to go to a Catholic school. Many parents, such as mine when I was growing up, just have to prioritize things in their life and give up a lot of stuff to send their kids to a Catholic school.

soulsinging

cornnifer wrote:

Try telling that to the multitude of doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc. that have emerged from the public school system. i won't argue that there isn't a need for some tweaking of how public education is administered, but to say there should be no public education is to endorse a despicable policy of Social Darwinism that should make anyone ashamed.

if cities want to build schools, they can levy taxes to do so. if it is important, the community will band together to demand it. otherwise, the fact that certain areas are underprivileged has not meant they dont get a walmart. there will still be schools. but they can succeed and fail on their own merits, instead of being manipulated and kept afloat by federal funds completely out of touch with the schools they support.

but to an extent, yes, it's social darwinism. and im not ashamed of that. i know id be in the living half. fuck the people that don't care enough to take advantage of the education handed them for free. you know what the graduation and truancy rates are for inner city chicago schools? it's fucking miserable. maybe these neighborhoods would end up with 1 great school for the kids that actually want it and appreciate it, instead of 5 shitty obligatory schools that the kids and their parents couldn't care less about draining money and producing graduates who can't read and need an entire remedial curriculum if they ever try to go to community college.

ForestBrain

I have not read much of this thread, but in response to the title:

I was home schooled until 10th grade, and then I quit and started working. I am glad I was home schooled, because each specific subject received special attention. I was really good in spelling, math, grammar and history. I sucked in science, even though I loved reading about it. My education was good, and I learned a lot. Something I have noticed about younger kids these days is that they are kind of stupid where education is concerned. They can't spell right, they stink with math and the English language has been chopped down so horribly it makes me cringe. I think every body should know how to read, write properly and have basic mathematical training. The problem with public schools is that there are so many kids, and so few teachers. On top of the lack of teachers and personal attention, the teachers have had a lot of rights taken away, and they cannot do what they need to to teach these kids. It is my belief that children would be much better educated in their own homes either by a tutor, or a parent.
^ That was just a small part of the education, but now we have the social problems.
Kids in schools are mean, we know that. They tease, mock, abuse, do drugs and sleep around. Going to a public school is not necessary for social education. I NEVER went to a public school, yet I have very good social skills, I have confidence and I believe I can do whatever I want. I was still teased when I was a kid, but it was considerably lessened because I was not surrounded by hundreds of other kids.
I think it would be a lot better for the kids, mentally, to be home schooled. Heck, I have three nephews who are home schooled and they are the friendliest kids I have ever seen, but they are not mean. They wave to strangers and say "Hi" all of the time, they are not the least bit shy. It's a big load of horse crap that public schools are necessary for social education.
Both of my parents worked A LOT, and I still received a very good education. For the parents, it is a matter of sacrificing themselves to better their children.

KidCarnivore

As a public school teacher, I have to cast my "no" vote. Teachers' unions are much too powerful. Public schools are accountable to no one other than a school board, and are run like any unaccountable business would be. Without public schools, we would have better and cheaper private schools available. Teachers could be paid for their performance rather than their length of employment.

soulsinging

ForestBrain wrote:

It is my belief that children would be much better educated in their own homes either by a tutor, or a parent.

problem is most parents dont care enough to do this. that's why the kids do shitty in school to begin with. they cant be bothered to even see if the kid is attending school or doing homework, and most of them weren't bright enough to finish high school themselves. you cant teach what you dont know yourself.

are you episcopalian perchance?

soulsinging

KidCarnivore wrote:

As a public school teacher, I have to cast my "no" vote. Teachers' unions are much too powerful. Public schools are accountable to no one other than a school board, and are run like any unaccountable business would be. Without public schools, we would have better and cheaper private schools available. Teachers could be paid for their performance rather than their length of employment.

this is a huge problem. nothing protects mediocrity like unions.

Juberoo

I haven't read through the posts so if I am repeating..I apologize.

I do not see public schools as "socialism" per say...but rather a necessity to further society. These children, regardless of lot, are our future. It is each and everyones responsibility to give these kids a chance. We don't know which ones will turn out to be the next generation of leaders. Our future depends on their education.

I do think however, that more rules need to be adopted to demand better performance from the kids. Uniforms should be accross the board for all. It levels the social pressure considerably. Punishments should be stronger for failure to comply to rules, work or attitude. The kids who need the most discipline don't get it because their lax parents are the ones who are the first to say they wont stand by while their child is held responsible.

OK then fine...punish the parents when the kids act up. Children are a product of what they see. If they are raised properly, they won't misbehave.

If the older kids dont' want to tow the line in school...then let them drop out. But then don't let them access public assistance...make them get jobs and pay taxes to support the kids who DO want an education.

Our society humiliatingly doles out far too many handouts. We need more stringent laws with regards to govt. aid. Poverty doesn't have to breed ignorance. But unless the cycle stops, and this mentality of "gimme" is erraticated, the schools are going to continue to suffer.

KidCarnivore

Schools and education are a necessity. A state-controlled, union-protected education system is not necessary.

ForestBrain

soulsinging wrote:

problem is most parents dont care enough to do this. that's why the kids do shitty in school to begin with. they cant be bothered to even see if the kid is attending school or doing homework, and most of them weren't bright enough to finish high school themselves. you cant teach what you dont know yourself.

are you episcopalian perchance?

Nope, why?