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Should there be public schools?

Uncle LeoUncle Leo Posts: 1,059
edited July 2007 in A Moving Train
The "vocal third" of this board is much more libertarian than neo-con. Therefore, I'd like to see how many people respond to this question with "no." Kind of out of curiosity as to what I believe is a one-day-to-be libertarian majority feels.

Should there be public schools?


Public schools are undoubtly socialist. They take money from the hard working so the children of the impoverished can go to school. It is quite contrary to a free market. Should these poor families not just make the child an apprentice? Then that child can work his ass off and one day HIS/HER kids can go to school. Sure it is not fair, but that's the market. (In reading this, I know I sound like a smartass, but it is not my intent.

OR

Kids need this opportunity, particularly in a place (USA) that prides itself in giveing everyone a chance. Poor kids deserve schooling as much as rich kids. The notion that some kids could not afford school (or even that some parents would just not prioritize it enough to spend the money) is a market failure that has to be corrected.
I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    providing the best education possible to its citizens is a collective responsibility of any society. period.
  • yosi1yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    my2hands wrote:
    providing the best education possible to its citizens is a collective responsibility of any society. period.
    Yes.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    I'm not particularly for public schools but rather for the public funding of education. There's no reason why my kid's publically funded education has to be done at public schools other than to deny choice, legislate mediocracy and spoonfed unions.

    I'd like to see education run like healthcare should be run. Publically funded but provided by anyone with the proper credentials at a government mandated rate. Your publically funded education should be through high school.

    The current public school system is a joke. It's education by lowest denominator. Built around dumbing things down to the point that even ther most uninterested student is still given a passing grade. After all, we wouldn't want to hurt little Johny/Joanie's esteem by failing them when they do failing work.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    my2hands wrote:
    providing the best education possible to its citizens is a collective responsibility of any society. period.
    Is this done through public schools? Evidence is showing this idea to be false. But public funding of education is great.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • Uncle LeoUncle Leo Posts: 1,059
    surferdude wrote:
    I'm not particularly for public schools but rather for the public funding of education. There's no reason why my kid's publically funded education has to be done at public schools other than to deny choice, legislate mediocracy and spoonfed unions.

    I'd like to see education run like healthcare should be run. Publically funded but provided by anyone with the proper credentials at a government mandated rate. Your publically funded education should be through high school.

    The current public school system is a joke. It's education by lowest denominator. Built around dumbing things down to the point that even ther most uninterested student is still given a passing grade. After all, we wouldn't want to hurt little Johny/Joanie's esteem by failing them when they do failing work.

    Damn. I did not think of someone bringing this up. I would rather not have this debate. I suppose better wording would have been "should education be publicly funded."
    I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    Uncle Leo wrote:
    I suppose better wording would have been "should education be publicly funded."
    Hell yes. In fact I'd like to see an additional amount of funding for education for kids living in poverty allowing them to pursue better education than their immediate environs may provide.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • godpt3godpt3 Posts: 1,020
    surferdude wrote:
    I'm not particularly for public schools but rather for the public funding of education. There's no reason why my kid's publically funded education has to be done at public schools other than to deny choice, legislate mediocracy and spoonfed unions.

    It's to provide for a more uniform education system. I don't want my tax dollars funding some fucked up christian homeschooling their kids that the bible is factual. If you want to teach that to your kids, more power to your ignorance. But I'm sure as hell not paying for it.
    "If all those sweet, young things were laid end to end, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised."
    —Dorothy Parker

    http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6902/conspiracytheoriesxt6qt8.jpg
  • godpt3godpt3 Posts: 1,020
    surferdude wrote:
    The current public school system is a joke. It's education by lowest denominator. Built around dumbing things down to the point that even ther most uninterested student is still given a passing grade. After all, we wouldn't want to hurt little Johny/Joanie's esteem by failing them when they do failing work.

    We could always just Columbine little Johnny and Joanie. Call it evolution by proxy :D
    "If all those sweet, young things were laid end to end, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised."
    —Dorothy Parker

    http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6902/conspiracytheoriesxt6qt8.jpg
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    godpt3 wrote:
    It's to provide for a more uniform education system. I don't want my tax dollars funding some fucked up christian homeschooling their kids that the bible is factual. If you want to teach that to your kids, more power to your ignorance. But I'm sure as hell not paying for it.
    Then those kids won't be able to pass ther government tests and they fail. The only uniform education the public system is providing is a uniformly shitty one. Too many kids are graduating high school with next to know education or life skills and with zero skills to bring to the workforce. In other words the public school system has educated them to fail at life. Man, that just seems so much better than having a stay at home parent involved in your education.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • godpt3godpt3 Posts: 1,020
    surferdude wrote:
    know

    *no*
    "If all those sweet, young things were laid end to end, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised."
    —Dorothy Parker

    http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6902/conspiracytheoriesxt6qt8.jpg
  • mdigenakismdigenakis Posts: 1,337
    Socialism isn't always a bad thing.
    "Don't let the darkness eat you up..."

    -Greg Dulli

  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    Democracy cannot work without an educated and informed populace, so of course an education should be guaranteed to everyone. I'm more than happy to hear debate on how resources should be appropriated, since it's clear that the current system is failing so many.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    godpt3 wrote:
    *no*
    Well i am the product of public education. Luckily there were years of education after the public school system to teach me to think. Unfortunately for me they didn't have a spelling 101 course.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Good question. I'm kind of on the fence, but I think private schools educate better and I dislike the government's hand in anything.


    So I guess "No", but it's not a strong no...
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    I think public education does more to dumb down the population and make them submissive than anything but that's just my opinion. It's the way they are taught that I have a problem with....not the actual concept of public schools. There needs to be reforms and focus stressed on individual students and their strong suits, provide more creative outlets for them, teach them lessons about community and how to live with others around you...right now they teach each kid to pretty much isolate themselves from others, they encourage cliques, they focus on the same dry lessons year after year that none of us bothered to remember, they sit in desks all day so they don't have the opportunity to learn off of each others strengths and ideas but rather compete against each other...not owrk together, they are mostly taught how to pass standardized tests, they are not allowed to voice differing opinions, and on and on....I'm just not impressed by a long shot with the quality of public ed in the country. I view it as a disservice to the minds of our future generation to let it continue on this way.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • even flow?even flow? Posts: 8,066
    If there were to be a social structure as to where to cut education. Why start with the poor when (to use a term that some don't like) there is funding for retarded people. If you are going to get into the whole "can they help out society" crap. That would be ahead of the poor, wouldn't it.

    And....if you are not catholic or privledged where are you supposed to go to get educated?
    You've changed your place in this world!
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    my2hands wrote:
    providing the best education possible to its citizens is a collective responsibility of any society. period.

    Because you say so.

    There should be no federal requirement for states to run a public school program. If states wish to do so upon a vote by their legislatures, fine.

    I would prefer that government have little if anything to do with education, as we've seen: it does not adequately educate young people. Markets could address the needs of young people better.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    even flow? wrote:
    And....if you are not catholic or privledged where are you supposed to go to get educated?

    Those who are not catholic or "priveleged" could form their own schools. Educational requirements would be developed on a school by school basis where markets determine what children must know. Since the market would conclude that people who have broad-ranging knowledge make the best employees, not much would be different from current school systems. Except, children would be better educated and standards would be more difficult.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    Because you say so.

    There should be no federal requirement for states to run a public school program. If states wish to do so upon a vote by their legislatures, fine.

    I would prefer that government have little if anything to do with education, as we've seen: it does not adequately educate young people. Markets could address the needs of young people better.

    markets?? ... wtf does that mean? ...

    who is this markets fella? ... apparently he is the solution to all of life's ills!
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    polaris wrote:
    markets?? ... wtf does that mean? ...

    who is this markets fella? ... apparently he is the solution to all of life's ills!

    It's kind of like a higher quality market for healthcare develops when you don't let the government run it...oh, whoops. You're Canadian.

    Maybe that's why Canadians come to America to get their healthcare. Because MARKETS offer better competition than government bureaucracy.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    It's kind of like a higher quality market for healthcare develops when you don't let the government run it...oh, whoops. You're Canadian.

    Maybe that's why Canadians come to America to get their healthcare. Because MARKETS offer better competition than government bureaucracy.

    i still don't know who this markets guy is ... i do know that your understanding of our health care system is misguided ... i wonder how many canadians would trade our system for yours??
  • CaterinaACaterinaA Posts: 572
    Yes, definitely

    In my opinion school (kindergarten, elementary and secondary education) should be free (well we pay it via our taxes) and available to every single kid of this planet. The benefits of having an educated population are infinite times larger than the monetary cost of publicly funded education.

    Hundreds of studies show that poverty, criminality, violence and plenty of other negative externalities are inversely related to education. The more educated the people the better we are as a society. This is an oversimplification and overstilization of facts, but pretty much these are some of the most known benefits of education
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    polaris wrote:
    i still don't know who this markets guy is ... i do know that your understanding of our health care system is misguided ... i wonder how many canadians would trade our system for yours??

    Probably the ones who don't work would trade it.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    Probably the ones who don't work would trade it.

    uhhh ... i'll presume you are referring to americans ... in any case - i would guess that there would be more americans wanting our health care system (as imperfect as it is) then the other way around ...
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    polaris wrote:
    uhhh ... i'll presume you are referring to americans ... in any case - i would guess that there would be more americans wanting our health care system (as imperfect as it is) then the other way around ...

    Perhaps the minority who are uninsured might, but those who are insured wouldn't want crappy healthcare. Not by a longshot.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • DCGARDENDCGARDEN Posts: 515
    As one of the 5 conservative Pearl Jam fans apparently, I am not conservative when it comes to children. Any child, every child should be given not only the best education, but the best healthcare, no matter of race, religion, social standing or where they live in.

    Now, if you ask me if an 30 year old adult should be given a check every month for nothing, then my friend you can kiss my hairy bean bag

    But children, no. They deserve the best.
    I'll keep taking punches
    Untill their will grows tired
  • even flow?even flow? Posts: 8,066
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    Those who are not catholic or "priveleged" could form their own schools. Educational requirements would be developed on a school by school basis where markets determine what children must know. Since the market would conclude that people who have broad-ranging knowledge make the best employees, not much would be different from current school systems. Except, children would be better educated and standards would be more difficult.


    So if I form my own school then it would be non of your business what I would teach the kids. Going by your standard. Why don't they teach religion at public schools? Anyway, we have seen how well your government likes (Branch Dividians for one) when a group goes off and does things their own way.

    Funny you say about good education when you have a lobby in the States that stepped in and took a job away from a very good educator because of their view of a certain place in the world. Please come back and answer something a little better then "markets" having a control of education. Works well for people who can invest. And the others?
    You've changed your place in this world!
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    no. the experiment in mass education in america has been a total and utter failure. to analogize, the quality of an american public school education is equivalent to the quality of a mcdonald's hamburger. sure it's cheap, ubiquitous, and everyone can get one, but it's crap and doesn't nourish anybody.
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    Perhaps the minority who are uninsured might, but those who are insured wouldn't want crappy healthcare. Not by a longshot.

    and what percentage of the population is that??
  • cornnifercornnifer Posts: 2,130
    soulsinging wrote:
    no. the experiment in mass education in america has been a total and utter failure. to analogize, the quality of an american public school education is equivalent to the quality of a mcdonald's hamburger. sure it's cheap, ubiquitous, and everyone can get one, but it's crap and doesn't nourish anybody.
    Try telling that to the multitude of doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc. that have emerged from the public school system. i won't argue that there isn't a need for some tweaking of how public education is administered, but to say there should be no public education is to endorse a despicable policy of Social Darwinism that should make anyone ashamed.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
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