Small(er) Tube Amps

chops

G'day all. I couldn't see anything like this anywhere else... if i missed it please direct me there and delete this thread.

Basically, i'm looking to get a small valve/tube amp. I don't have a lot of cash (about a grand-1500 Australian) to spend, but i need to replace my current amp (a solid state fender frontman 65R that i am disgusted with). I've been playing for a while, but predominantly acoustically. Electric music i like to play includes stuff like Pearl Jam ofcourse, Black Keys, Strokes, SRV (eventually), Hendrix (terribly) Zeppelin, Kings of Leon, White Stripes etc etc. Basically, i like to play the blues a fair bit, but also like to get a good 'crunching' sound out of the amp (whether that means gain, distortion i do not know.) If it hasn't already become evident i know very little about amps.

Perusing the internet i have come to very much like the look of the orange tiny terror. Based on it's price, i'm assuming it's a good amp? Will it suit the kind of music that i'm into? I also have seen more obvious options fender, marshall, peavey etc. Also, while my current fender fm is rated at 65 watts, i gather that valve amps are rated differently, as the orange tiny terror is only 15watts, but is still quite expensive? I have only have a squire strat at the moment, but am looking at getting an american vintage '52 telecaster.

Anyway, this thread seems very selfish at the moment - so perhaps it can just be a review of your favourite under $1000-$1500 tube/valve amps.

Finally, this is my first post but i have been looking around here for a while and have learnt heaps from many of your posts, since i first started playing over 2 years ago. Thanks heaps in advance for any advice or reviews.

Novawind

The Tiny Terror has a good reputation among boutique-gear owners and regular players. I'd say that's a pretty safe bet as for as heads go. The wattage isn't a direct indication of loudness either. It's based on a logarithmic scale, so a 150 watt amp will produce twice the volume of a 15 watt amp. Unless you're playing with a band, 15 watts should be fine for just your general practice and 7 watts is great for bedroom level. You'll need a speaker cab as well (a 2x12 would probably be fine). I don't know exactly what's available in Australia as far as retail goes but lucylespian would probably know.

Definitely upgrade that guitar too, it's time.

xtremehardy388

Fender Blues Jr.
Orange Crush
Fender Pro Jr.

Pacomc79

solid state amps tend to tell you the peak maximum output.

Tube amps are rated at nominal power. So for instance a 50 watt Marshall head for instance might actually be producing 99 watts at clip.

But in general depending on your situation 15 - 22 watts in the average tube amp is extraordinarily loud for the average bedroom and many can keep up with most bands. Speaker choice and cabinet size number of speakers etc tremendously effect sound so that matters as well. a small 1x12 combo sounds completely different from even the exact same amplifier over a 4x12 or 2x12 or 2x10 etc amp because of physics moving more air and so on and so forth.

There are so many ways you can go with this I don't really want to comment yet. Definately spend some time looking around and pricing stuff, maybe give yourself 6 months to make this purchase.

definately spend the majority of your time examining the amps clean tone.


If you are looking at heads, make sure you try out different cabinets if possible.

Pauk

I was in a similar situation last year. Bought a Hughes & Kettner Statesman Dual EL84 (http://www.hughes-and-kettner.com/products.php?mode=prod&id=115) for the equivalent of about 1,300 AUD. Great amp for the value, and quite light too. It bills itself as the best of modern and vintage amps, not sure if it quite manages it, but it's good for that slightly vintage tone of White Stripes and Kings of Leon. Would definitely recommend trying one out if you can find a store that stocks H&K.

Piper At The Gates

I tried out a Tiny Terror and I was floored by the tone. This is a great amp for the price. Hook it up to a good twelve inch speaker cab and you should have a great little rig within your budget

itsevolutionbaby

my brother has this amp and loves it to death. he's playing it through a 4x12 marshall cabinet that I let him borrow, and it sounds good. However it's totally different than the AD30tc that I have. I was surprised how different that they actually sound. Granted the tubes are different, produced in different countries, etc. but I expected to have the same tonal qualities. Not the case. So, like everyone always says...Play one! I think its a good amp for the value, but keep in mind that you will need a cabinet, so you will be looking at about a grand for it. You have a lot of choices at that price point. Also, understand that it's only one channel. (to many, this is no big deal) Also, you need to like the clean channel of an orange. It's very different from a fender. Again, find one and play it. Have you looked at the Savage or DrZ amps?

DriftingByTheStorm

Another acceptable choice for a VERY SMALL Tube is the
"BumBox" and ther is a "umlaut" over the "u" ...
i think it ran me about $500.

Given a choice of a "do-over" i'd go with the Tiny Terror any day,
but the Tiny Terror is a good deal louder.

The BumBox is a "whopping" HALF-WATT of semi-vintage-Marshall-esque tone.

Yes, a HALF WATT,
that overdrives to nearly a FULL WATT.

And believe me, it is NOT loud.
And you will not be getting a whole box of tones either.
It does have seperate volume, gain, and tone settings ...
but turning the gain down, renders the actual volume at nearly nil.

I have to put my BJFE Baby Blue in the chain to drive the volume up as much as possible, to get it where i like it.

I'd say 1\2 Watt is a bit TOO small.

However, to be fair, i'm running this out of a 12" Black Shadow ...
probably not the optimum speaker for such a small amp head.

I also had one of them Epiphone 5 Watt amps ... and, before something shorted on it, i thought it was a fairly servicable small amp for $100 ... and 5 Watts is PLENTY loud for a bedroom.

ballgame

I dont think a tube is what you want if you are just starting to learn electric guitar. Why do you want tube? If you have a good reason then I understand. If you say "because its better" or "its warmer than solid state" you're right, but dont think its what you want right now. Plus you'll have to buy a cab for most of the tube amps.

Its also going to cost a lot of $$$$$$

If you never leave your bedroom then don’t waste your money. If you’re in a band you need to be loud enough for your band mates to hear you. Most places mic the amps for the crowd. But if you’re a bedroom shredder don’t waste your money. Get a decent amp and use the extra $$$$ on a guitar.

Line 6 makes a smaller tube amp

Personally I play a Line 6 Flextone III. At the time I was gigging in bars and whatnot and wanted a tube amp. Couldn’t afford one that would loud enough. 30 watt tubes are loud but it was maxed out. So I went for a versatile loud amp. Line 6 is all modeling and there is no true tone, just modulations of tone. But you can dial in some good stuff and I found something I just love. In all the tube just wasn’t worth it for me. Because to pay for “tube” you really need a big amp which cost lots of $$$$

This is just my opinion but I don’t think you want a tube. Get a nice crushing amp and use the extra money to upgrade your guitar
Like some people mentioned you might have to buy a cab to go with your amp. Now you have spend more $$$ and lug around more gear.

Just trying to give you an opinion in a different direction.
Some people hate the amp I use, but I love it. The key is going to a guitar store and test driving the amps. Don’t buy something online without ever trying it.

xtremehardy388

ballgame wrote:

I dont think a tube is what you want if you are just starting to learn electric guitar. Why do you want tube? If you have a good reason then I understand. If you say "because its better" or "its warmer than solid state" you're right, but dont think its what you want right now. Plus you'll have to buy a cab for most of the tube amps.

Its also going to cost a lot of $$$$$$

If you never leave your bedroom then don’t waste your money. If you’re in a band you need to be loud enough for your band mates to hear you. Most places mic the amps for the crowd. But if you’re a bedroom shredder don’t waste your money. Get a decent amp and use the extra $$$$ on a guitar.

Line 6 makes a smaller tube amp

Personally I play a Line 6 Flextone III. At the time I was gigging in bars and whatnot and wanted a tube amp. Couldn’t afford one that would loud enough. 30 watt tubes are loud but it was maxed out. So I went for a versatile loud amp. Line 6 is all modeling and there is no true tone, just modulations of tone. But you can dial in some good stuff and I found something I just love. In all the tube just wasn’t worth it for me. Because to pay for “tube” you really need a big amp which cost lots of $$$$

This is just my opinion but I don’t think you want a tube. Get a nice crushing amp and use the extra money to upgrade your guitar
Like some people mentioned you might have to buy a cab to go with your amp. Now you have spend more $$$ and lug around more gear.

Just trying to give you an opinion in a different direction.
Some people hate the amp I use, but I love it. The key is going to a guitar store and test driving the amps. Don’t buy something online without ever trying it.

I personally like tube hybrids more

ballgame

Ive never tried one. Isnt the new Line 6 tube a hybrid?

Pacomc79

ballgame wrote:

Ive never tried one. Isnt the new Line 6 tube a hybrid?

Not quite sure there actually It does have a tube power stage and probably a tube preamp as well but it's mated to a digital preamp.

The spider valves are basically tube amps with added digital circuitry. Basically connect a computer to a tube amp and that's what you've got. not a hybrid where you would mate a tube preamp with a SS power amp.


From Line 6 so please ignore the silly marketing BS.
Are Spider Valve amps "true" tube amplifiers?
Absolutely! The Spider Valve combo amps use two 12AX7 tubes in the preamp section and two matched 5881WXT (6L6) tubes in the Bogner-designed valve power amp section. These amps are not "hybrid" amplifiers that use solid-state circuitry to amplify the tones produced by tubes in their preamp sections. It goes without saying that Reinhold Bogner would not put his name on a product he was not extremely happy about. (We're excited too!)

RAT!

right now i'm playing through a peavy bandit 112, but i'm considering buying

a fender hot rod deluxe. opinions?

xtremehardy388

RAT! wrote:

right now i'm playing through a peavy bandit 112, but i'm considering buying

a fender hot rod deluxe. opinions?

Greatest amp. IMO...my DREAM amp...and an amazing drive channel

DriftingByTheStorm

xtremehardy388 wrote:

Greatest amp. IMO...my DREAM amp...and an amazing drive channel

i used to have one of those,
before a buddy who was borrowing it went off to rehab and disappeared for ever on me.

To be perfectly honest, there was nothing i DID like about it.
And there are a couple of cheap ass 1 cent parts, that should be cheap as 10 cent parts in it ... caused the overdrive channel to go out on me.

It was my first "real" amp, my parents bought me when i was 16, and i never liked the tone of it.

But i guess that just goes to show,
"to each, his own"

right?

:Dq

mccreadyisgod

To clarify one bit here, real quick....

Audio output is logarithmic, as Novawind pointed out, so to double the perceived volume, you multiply the wattage by a factor of 10. To half the perceived volume, you divide by a factor of 10. So, a 12-watt Fender Princeton is only half as loud as something like a late-70's Fender Dual Showman putting out 135 watts (assuming they're plugged into the exact same speaker and cabinet).

Also, tube amps are rated at output before distortion. That means that they put a test-tone into the amp and turn it up until they register distortion past a certain parameter (like 0.1% THD [total harmonic distortion]). A general rule of thumb is that tube amps start to distort beyond that tolerance at around half their total potential output. That means that most tube amps are capable of outputting nearly twice their rated power. That makes that Princeton, rated at 12 watts, capable of about 20-22 watts if you cranked it all the way up.

Most of us would tell you that 20 to 50 watts is plenty to play around with, jam with friends or at practice, or even play gigs. I myself have personally played bar gigs with a 12-watt Fender Musicmaster Bass amp (playing guitar) with a single 12" speaker and no mic on the amp.

As for my personal recommendations, I really like the Epiphone Valve Jr (especially as a head, although the combo's not bad). The Fender Princeton Reverb that's just come out should be a pretty good option as well. I haven't tried the Tiny Terror, but I've heard some really good things from some who've played it (although they like chimey amps). The Peavey Classic 20, Classic 30, and Fender Hot Rod Deluxe are good amps in the 20-40 watt range. Beyond that, there's always the vintage used market, where Fender Deluxe and Deluxe Reverb, Champ, Vibro Champ, and Princeton and Princeton Reverb amps shine.

As for the Line 6 / Bogner Spider Valve, it's technically a mostly-tube amp (it's missing a tube rectifier) but the computer modeling definitely makes it a radically different animal. Even the 1x12" combo version is a big amp with a lot of power (40 watts). It's got the advantage of internal effects and modeling, which gives you a lot of toys in one box. The effects are, overall, better than most multi-FX pedals, but shy of good stompboxes. The models aren't the same as the amps they emulate, but they're passable.

Oh, and RAT!... I actually kinda have a soft spot in my heart for the TransTube Peavey Bandit and Bandit II... the older, pre-TransTube amps weren't great, but the TransTube stuff made them a *decent* solid-state amp (IMO).

chops

Thanks heaps to everyone who replied. Bloody amps seem so complicated. I won't claim to understand Why tube amps are louder, but can now figure out just how much louder they are, so thanks to mcreadyisgod and pacomc for that.

ballgame, thanks heaps for your post. my want for a tube amp is just based upon the fact that's what everyone seems to play - which seems stupid as i write this. i've had some bad experiences buying stuff that i'm ready to upgrade within a year or two of buying (amp, multi-effects pedal, acoustic) and i want to be happy with this amp in the next 5 years, even if it costs an extra couple of hundred dollars. i play mostly by myself, but have started jamming with a couple of mates most weeks, which is fine for volume, until the drummer really starts beating the s**t out of his kit. the louder the drums get, the louder the bass gets (4x12? subwoofer cabinet) which is getting annoying. i guess what i mean is if these jams get more serious, i don't want to be looking to upgrade again in the near future.

thanks to everyone who offered up other options. especially that hughes-kettner amp. that looks awesome - though i don't like my chances of finding one around here. reckon whatever choice i make will now more likely be over the next few months, rather than the next few weeks. i've got a fair bit to figure out about amps, before i even start thinking about preference.

is there inherently worse about getting a combo amp compared to a seperate head and cabinet? i'm more inclined to get a combo because they seem less complicated - though i don't want to pay that bit extra for one if they aren't as good.

again, thanks to everyone for all your insight and advice.

mccreadyisgod

chops wrote:

is there inherently worse about getting a combo amp compared to a seperate head and cabinet? i'm more inclined to get a combo because they seem less complicated - though i don't want to pay that bit extra for one if they aren't as good.

Well, the advantages of a combo are: 1) Only one box to carry; 2) Usually big enough for what you need; 3) Cheaper than buying a comparable separate amp head and speaker cabinet.

The advantage of a head-and-cab are: 1) Flexibility, the ability to change speakers and speaker cab size very easily [you could start with a small 1x12 cab and later upgrade, or just add, a 4x12 or whatever you wanted]; 2) Having a bigger speaker cab can add to perceived loudness [the same amp will sound louder thru a 4x12 than a 1x12, even if output wattage is the same]; 3) You *can* [although I recommend against it] get a pretty nice amp, and then cheap out on the speaker cab until you can afford a nicer speaker cab, and then you can always trade the amp head separately as well; 4) Most combo amps are open-backed, so if you want the sound of a closed-back cab, it's necessary to have an external cab anyways.

That being said, you could always get a combo amp AND a small extension cab. A 1x12 combo with a 1x12 sealed extension cabinet will sound pretty big and full... not maybe as big as a big half-stack, but close. And you can always take or leave the extension cab as needed, or even just take the extension cab to put your amp on top of at a gig or practice... makes it much easier to hear!

Don't be afraid to ask more questions, we're all here to learn, to share, and to debate! None of us has *THE* answer, but most of us have *AN* answer.

xtremehardy388

mccreadyisgod wrote:

Well, the advantages of a combo are: 1) Only one box to carry; 2) Usually big enough for what you need; 3) Cheaper than buying a comparable separate amp head and speaker cabinet.

The advantage of a head-and-cab are: 1) Flexibility, the ability to change speakers and speaker cab size very easily [you could start with a small 1x12 cab and later upgrade, or just add, a 4x12 or whatever you wanted]; 2) Having a bigger speaker cab can add to perceived loudness [the same amp will sound louder thru a 4x12 than a 1x12, even if output wattage is the same]; 3) You *can* [although I recommend against it] get a pretty nice amp, and then cheap out on the speaker cab until you can afford a nicer speaker cab, and then you can always trade the amp head separately as well; 4) Most combo amps are open-backed, so if you want the sound of a closed-back cab, it's necessary to have an external cab anyways.

That being said, you could always get a combo amp AND a small extension cab. A 1x12 combo with a 1x12 sealed extension cabinet will sound pretty big and full... not maybe as big as a big half-stack, but close. And you can always take or leave the extension cab as needed, or even just take the extension cab to put your amp on top of at a gig or practice... makes it much easier to hear!

Don't be afraid to ask more questions, we're all here to learn, to share, and to debate! None of us has *THE* answer, but most of us have *AN* answer.

I like combos, a lot. I use my combo as a head, too and plug it into a bass amp and use the bass amp as an adjustable cab. It's a a great sound and tone.

chops

thanks mcreadyisgod.
the idea of getting a combo amp now, then adding another cabinet when the money/need arises sounds pretty appealing right now. it offers the flexibility to uprgrade in the future without spending *too* much money now.

and since i have no shame left in regards to lack of amp knowledge:
1) what is the difference in sound between a solid back and open back?
2) what exactly IS a half stack (is there a 'full stack')?
3) do different speakers offer different sounds, or just better/worse quality? that is to say, are some speakers/brands suited to different types of music? i once had someone try to convince me marshall cabinets didn't have marshall speakers in them per se, and it really the amp that was important. i guess what i mean, is picking a cabinet purely based on size and cost?

thanks again.

mccreadyisgod

chops wrote:

1) what is the difference in sound between a solid back and open back?
2) what exactly IS a half stack (is there a 'full stack')?
3) do different speakers offer different sounds, or just better/worse quality? that is to say, are some speakers/brands suited to different types of music? i once had someone try to convince me marshall cabinets didn't have marshall speakers in them per se, and it really the amp that was important. i guess what i mean, is picking a cabinet purely based on size and cost?

thanks again.

Hey, we all had to learn this stuff at some point, right? (Well, not me... I sprung fully-formed from the womb with this information pre-loaded, like a Line 6 expansion package...)

1) Open-back speaker enclosures will be brighter, clearer, and more defined. May be a little "thin" sounding. A closed-back (solid-back) speaker enclosure will sound bigger, fuller, with more low-end (bass). May be a little "muddy" sounding.
2) A half-stack refers to an amp head paired with a single 4x12 cabinet. A "full-stack" refers to an amp head paired with two 4x12 cabinets stacked vertically. I believe that the terms came from Marshall players, when guitarists needed to have full-stacks (if not multiple full-stacks) to be heard when playing some venues. They could use a half-stack for the smaller ones, and a full-stack for the big ones. Marshall heads were capable of powering two cabinets at once, and they designed the matched straight-front and slant-front cabinets that could be stacked, with the head on top of the monstrosity. Do a Google image search for "half-stack" and "full-stack" (http://images.google.com)
3) You asked the right guy... I am something of a speaker junkie. There are a lot of players who believe that a $2000 Marshall head played thru a $150 Behringer cabinet is perfectly acceptable. It's not. First of all, the speakers in a Marshall cabinet aren't made by Marshall; the main manufacturer of speakers for Marshall's cabinets is Celestion. There are several different models of speakers made by Celestion, and Marshall uses many different ones for many different purposes. The two most popular models are the Vintage 30 and the Greenback. The Vintage 30 (V30) is the most transparent speaker out there, in most people's opinion. In other words, the Vintage 30 doesn't change the sound of your amp, it just makes your amp sound like it should. The Greenback, on the other hand, has a sound characteristic that a lot of people like. It's kind of gritty, sounds like the older speakers from the 60's and 70's (it's essentially the same design), and "breaks up" (distorts) with a really smooth, full character.

There are a few other Celestion models out there worth playing thru (G12T-75 comes to mind), as well as popular models by Electro-Voice (EV), Jensen, and a number of smaller manufacturers. Mesa Boogie used a lot of EV speakers in their earlier amps; the "Black Shadow" speaker is a special EV speaker made just for Mesa. A lot of Fenders use Jensen speakers, as they have for decades. The last big speaker manufacturer is Eminence. They make a lot of really great speakers, and they make a lot of really terrible speakers. Most of the terrible speakers are used in cheaper amps like practice amps, budget amps, etc. But their better speakers are actually really nice, and more affordable than their Celestion, Jensen, and EV equivalents. They (Eminence) definitely have a lot of options to look at.

One thing to keep in mind when thinking speakers... pairing open-back and closed-back speakers can give you a really full-sounding tone, literally the best of both worlds. I have an old Peavey cabinet that I love to death... it's a 2x12 cabinet, with the top speaker open-back and the bottom speaker closed-back. I loaded the top with an Eminence Gov'nor (their version of a Celestion Vintage 30) and the bottom with an Eminence Swamp Thing (their version of a Peavey Sheffield). I have it wired so I can use it as a full-range cabinet, or I can plug two different amps into one speaker each for a stereo effect.