Small(er) Tube Amps
chops
Posts: 19
G'day all. I couldn't see anything like this anywhere else... if i missed it please direct me there and delete this thread.
Basically, i'm looking to get a small valve/tube amp. I don't have a lot of cash (about a grand-1500 Australian) to spend, but i need to replace my current amp (a solid state fender frontman 65R that i am disgusted with). I've been playing for a while, but predominantly acoustically. Electric music i like to play includes stuff like Pearl Jam ofcourse, Black Keys, Strokes, SRV (eventually), Hendrix (terribly) Zeppelin, Kings of Leon, White Stripes etc etc. Basically, i like to play the blues a fair bit, but also like to get a good 'crunching' sound out of the amp (whether that means gain, distortion i do not know.) If it hasn't already become evident i know very little about amps.
Perusing the internet i have come to very much like the look of the orange tiny terror. Based on it's price, i'm assuming it's a good amp? Will it suit the kind of music that i'm into? I also have seen more obvious options fender, marshall, peavey etc. Also, while my current fender fm is rated at 65 watts, i gather that valve amps are rated differently, as the orange tiny terror is only 15watts, but is still quite expensive? I have only have a squire strat at the moment, but am looking at getting an american vintage '52 telecaster.
Anyway, this thread seems very selfish at the moment - so perhaps it can just be a review of your favourite under $1000-$1500 tube/valve amps.
Finally, this is my first post but i have been looking around here for a while and have learnt heaps from many of your posts, since i first started playing over 2 years ago. Thanks heaps in advance for any advice or reviews.
Basically, i'm looking to get a small valve/tube amp. I don't have a lot of cash (about a grand-1500 Australian) to spend, but i need to replace my current amp (a solid state fender frontman 65R that i am disgusted with). I've been playing for a while, but predominantly acoustically. Electric music i like to play includes stuff like Pearl Jam ofcourse, Black Keys, Strokes, SRV (eventually), Hendrix (terribly) Zeppelin, Kings of Leon, White Stripes etc etc. Basically, i like to play the blues a fair bit, but also like to get a good 'crunching' sound out of the amp (whether that means gain, distortion i do not know.) If it hasn't already become evident i know very little about amps.
Perusing the internet i have come to very much like the look of the orange tiny terror. Based on it's price, i'm assuming it's a good amp? Will it suit the kind of music that i'm into? I also have seen more obvious options fender, marshall, peavey etc. Also, while my current fender fm is rated at 65 watts, i gather that valve amps are rated differently, as the orange tiny terror is only 15watts, but is still quite expensive? I have only have a squire strat at the moment, but am looking at getting an american vintage '52 telecaster.
Anyway, this thread seems very selfish at the moment - so perhaps it can just be a review of your favourite under $1000-$1500 tube/valve amps.
Finally, this is my first post but i have been looking around here for a while and have learnt heaps from many of your posts, since i first started playing over 2 years ago. Thanks heaps in advance for any advice or reviews.
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Definitely upgrade that guitar too, it's time.
7/9/06 LA 1
7/10/06 LA 2
10/21/06 Bridge 1
Orange Crush
Fender Pro Jr.
JEFF HARDY AND JEFF AMENT USED TO LOOK THE SAME
"Pearl Jam always eases my mind and fires me up at the same time.”-Jeff Hardy
Tube amps are rated at nominal power. So for instance a 50 watt Marshall head for instance might actually be producing 99 watts at clip.
But in general depending on your situation 15 - 22 watts in the average tube amp is extraordinarily loud for the average bedroom and many can keep up with most bands. Speaker choice and cabinet size number of speakers etc tremendously effect sound so that matters as well. a small 1x12 combo sounds completely different from even the exact same amplifier over a 4x12 or 2x12 or 2x10 etc amp because of physics moving more air and so on and so forth.
There are so many ways you can go with this I don't really want to comment yet. Definately spend some time looking around and pricing stuff, maybe give yourself 6 months to make this purchase.
definately spend the majority of your time examining the amps clean tone.
If you are looking at heads, make sure you try out different cabinets if possible.
'06 - London, Dublin, Reading
'07 - Katowice, Wembley, Dusseldorf, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
'09 - London, Manchester, London
'12 - Manchester, Manchester, Berlin, Stockholm, Copenhagen
"BumBox" and ther is a "umlaut" over the "u" ...
i think it ran me about $500.
Given a choice of a "do-over" i'd go with the Tiny Terror any day,
but the Tiny Terror is a good deal louder.
The BumBox is a "whopping" HALF-WATT of semi-vintage-Marshall-esque tone.
Yes, a HALF WATT,
that overdrives to nearly a FULL WATT.
And believe me, it is NOT loud.
And you will not be getting a whole box of tones either.
It does have seperate volume, gain, and tone settings ...
but turning the gain down, renders the actual volume at nearly nil.
I have to put my BJFE Baby Blue in the chain to drive the volume up as much as possible, to get it where i like it.
I'd say 1\2 Watt is a bit TOO small.
However, to be fair, i'm running this out of a 12" Black Shadow ...
probably not the optimum speaker for such a small amp head.
I also had one of them Epiphone 5 Watt amps ... and, before something shorted on it, i thought it was a fairly servicable small amp for $100 ... and 5 Watts is PLENTY loud for a bedroom.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Its also going to cost a lot of $$$$$$
If you never leave your bedroom then don’t waste your money. If you’re in a band you need to be loud enough for your band mates to hear you. Most places mic the amps for the crowd. But if you’re a bedroom shredder don’t waste your money. Get a decent amp and use the extra $$$$ on a guitar.
Line 6 makes a smaller tube amp
Personally I play a Line 6 Flextone III. At the time I was gigging in bars and whatnot and wanted a tube amp. Couldn’t afford one that would loud enough. 30 watt tubes are loud but it was maxed out. So I went for a versatile loud amp. Line 6 is all modeling and there is no true tone, just modulations of tone. But you can dial in some good stuff and I found something I just love. In all the tube just wasn’t worth it for me. Because to pay for “tube” you really need a big amp which cost lots of $$$$
This is just my opinion but I don’t think you want a tube. Get a nice crushing amp and use the extra money to upgrade your guitar
Like some people mentioned you might have to buy a cab to go with your amp. Now you have spend more $$$ and lug around more gear.
Just trying to give you an opinion in a different direction.
Some people hate the amp I use, but I love it. The key is going to a guitar store and test driving the amps. Don’t buy something online without ever trying it.
JEFF HARDY AND JEFF AMENT USED TO LOOK THE SAME
"Pearl Jam always eases my mind and fires me up at the same time.”-Jeff Hardy
Not quite sure there actually It does have a tube power stage and probably a tube preamp as well but it's mated to a digital preamp.
The spider valves are basically tube amps with added digital circuitry. Basically connect a computer to a tube amp and that's what you've got. not a hybrid where you would mate a tube preamp with a SS power amp.
From Line 6 so please ignore the silly marketing BS.
Are Spider Valve amps "true" tube amplifiers?
Absolutely! The Spider Valve combo amps use two 12AX7 tubes in the preamp section and two matched 5881WXT (6L6) tubes in the Bogner-designed valve power amp section. These amps are not "hybrid" amplifiers that use solid-state circuitry to amplify the tones produced by tubes in their preamp sections. It goes without saying that Reinhold Bogner would not put his name on a product he was not extremely happy about. (We're excited too!)
a fender hot rod deluxe. opinions?
JEFF HARDY AND JEFF AMENT USED TO LOOK THE SAME
"Pearl Jam always eases my mind and fires me up at the same time.”-Jeff Hardy
i used to have one of those,
before a buddy who was borrowing it went off to rehab and disappeared for ever on me.
To be perfectly honest, there was nothing i DID like about it.
And there are a couple of cheap ass 1 cent parts, that should be cheap as 10 cent parts in it ... caused the overdrive channel to go out on me.
It was my first "real" amp, my parents bought me when i was 16, and i never liked the tone of it.
But i guess that just goes to show,
"to each, his own"
right?
:Dq
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Audio output is logarithmic, as Novawind pointed out, so to double the perceived volume, you multiply the wattage by a factor of 10. To half the perceived volume, you divide by a factor of 10. So, a 12-watt Fender Princeton is only half as loud as something like a late-70's Fender Dual Showman putting out 135 watts (assuming they're plugged into the exact same speaker and cabinet).
Also, tube amps are rated at output before distortion. That means that they put a test-tone into the amp and turn it up until they register distortion past a certain parameter (like 0.1% THD [total harmonic distortion]). A general rule of thumb is that tube amps start to distort beyond that tolerance at around half their total potential output. That means that most tube amps are capable of outputting nearly twice their rated power. That makes that Princeton, rated at 12 watts, capable of about 20-22 watts if you cranked it all the way up.
Most of us would tell you that 20 to 50 watts is plenty to play around with, jam with friends or at practice, or even play gigs. I myself have personally played bar gigs with a 12-watt Fender Musicmaster Bass amp (playing guitar) with a single 12" speaker and no mic on the amp.
As for my personal recommendations, I really like the Epiphone Valve Jr (especially as a head, although the combo's not bad). The Fender Princeton Reverb that's just come out should be a pretty good option as well. I haven't tried the Tiny Terror, but I've heard some really good things from some who've played it (although they like chimey amps). The Peavey Classic 20, Classic 30, and Fender Hot Rod Deluxe are good amps in the 20-40 watt range. Beyond that, there's always the vintage used market, where Fender Deluxe and Deluxe Reverb, Champ, Vibro Champ, and Princeton and Princeton Reverb amps shine.
As for the Line 6 / Bogner Spider Valve, it's technically a mostly-tube amp (it's missing a tube rectifier) but the computer modeling definitely makes it a radically different animal. Even the 1x12" combo version is a big amp with a lot of power (40 watts). It's got the advantage of internal effects and modeling, which gives you a lot of toys in one box. The effects are, overall, better than most multi-FX pedals, but shy of good stompboxes. The models aren't the same as the amps they emulate, but they're passable.
Oh, and RAT!... I actually kinda have a soft spot in my heart for the TransTube Peavey Bandit and Bandit II... the older, pre-TransTube amps weren't great, but the TransTube stuff made them a *decent* solid-state amp (IMO).
ballgame, thanks heaps for your post. my want for a tube amp is just based upon the fact that's what everyone seems to play - which seems stupid as i write this. i've had some bad experiences buying stuff that i'm ready to upgrade within a year or two of buying (amp, multi-effects pedal, acoustic) and i want to be happy with this amp in the next 5 years, even if it costs an extra couple of hundred dollars. i play mostly by myself, but have started jamming with a couple of mates most weeks, which is fine for volume, until the drummer really starts beating the s**t out of his kit. the louder the drums get, the louder the bass gets (4x12? subwoofer cabinet) which is getting annoying. i guess what i mean is if these jams get more serious, i don't want to be looking to upgrade again in the near future.
thanks to everyone who offered up other options. especially that hughes-kettner amp. that looks awesome - though i don't like my chances of finding one around here. reckon whatever choice i make will now more likely be over the next few months, rather than the next few weeks. i've got a fair bit to figure out about amps, before i even start thinking about preference.
is there inherently worse about getting a combo amp compared to a seperate head and cabinet? i'm more inclined to get a combo because they seem less complicated - though i don't want to pay that bit extra for one if they aren't as good.
again, thanks to everyone for all your insight and advice.
Well, the advantages of a combo are: 1) Only one box to carry; 2) Usually big enough for what you need; 3) Cheaper than buying a comparable separate amp head and speaker cabinet.
The advantage of a head-and-cab are: 1) Flexibility, the ability to change speakers and speaker cab size very easily [you could start with a small 1x12 cab and later upgrade, or just add, a 4x12 or whatever you wanted]; 2) Having a bigger speaker cab can add to perceived loudness [the same amp will sound louder thru a 4x12 than a 1x12, even if output wattage is the same]; 3) You *can* [although I recommend against it] get a pretty nice amp, and then cheap out on the speaker cab until you can afford a nicer speaker cab, and then you can always trade the amp head separately as well; 4) Most combo amps are open-backed, so if you want the sound of a closed-back cab, it's necessary to have an external cab anyways.
That being said, you could always get a combo amp AND a small extension cab. A 1x12 combo with a 1x12 sealed extension cabinet will sound pretty big and full... not maybe as big as a big half-stack, but close. And you can always take or leave the extension cab as needed, or even just take the extension cab to put your amp on top of at a gig or practice... makes it much easier to hear!
Don't be afraid to ask more questions, we're all here to learn, to share, and to debate! None of us has *THE* answer, but most of us have *AN* answer.
JEFF HARDY AND JEFF AMENT USED TO LOOK THE SAME
"Pearl Jam always eases my mind and fires me up at the same time.”-Jeff Hardy
the idea of getting a combo amp now, then adding another cabinet when the money/need arises sounds pretty appealing right now. it offers the flexibility to uprgrade in the future without spending *too* much money now.
and since i have no shame left in regards to lack of amp knowledge:
1) what is the difference in sound between a solid back and open back?
2) what exactly IS a half stack (is there a 'full stack')?
3) do different speakers offer different sounds, or just better/worse quality? that is to say, are some speakers/brands suited to different types of music? i once had someone try to convince me marshall cabinets didn't have marshall speakers in them per se, and it really the amp that was important. i guess what i mean, is picking a cabinet purely based on size and cost?
thanks again.
Hey, we all had to learn this stuff at some point, right? (Well, not me... I sprung fully-formed from the womb with this information pre-loaded, like a Line 6 expansion package...)
1) Open-back speaker enclosures will be brighter, clearer, and more defined. May be a little "thin" sounding. A closed-back (solid-back) speaker enclosure will sound bigger, fuller, with more low-end (bass). May be a little "muddy" sounding.
2) A half-stack refers to an amp head paired with a single 4x12 cabinet. A "full-stack" refers to an amp head paired with two 4x12 cabinets stacked vertically. I believe that the terms came from Marshall players, when guitarists needed to have full-stacks (if not multiple full-stacks) to be heard when playing some venues. They could use a half-stack for the smaller ones, and a full-stack for the big ones. Marshall heads were capable of powering two cabinets at once, and they designed the matched straight-front and slant-front cabinets that could be stacked, with the head on top of the monstrosity. Do a Google image search for "half-stack" and "full-stack" (http://images.google.com)
3) You asked the right guy... I am something of a speaker junkie. There are a lot of players who believe that a $2000 Marshall head played thru a $150 Behringer cabinet is perfectly acceptable. It's not. First of all, the speakers in a Marshall cabinet aren't made by Marshall; the main manufacturer of speakers for Marshall's cabinets is Celestion. There are several different models of speakers made by Celestion, and Marshall uses many different ones for many different purposes. The two most popular models are the Vintage 30 and the Greenback. The Vintage 30 (V30) is the most transparent speaker out there, in most people's opinion. In other words, the Vintage 30 doesn't change the sound of your amp, it just makes your amp sound like it should. The Greenback, on the other hand, has a sound characteristic that a lot of people like. It's kind of gritty, sounds like the older speakers from the 60's and 70's (it's essentially the same design), and "breaks up" (distorts) with a really smooth, full character.
There are a few other Celestion models out there worth playing thru (G12T-75 comes to mind), as well as popular models by Electro-Voice (EV), Jensen, and a number of smaller manufacturers. Mesa Boogie used a lot of EV speakers in their earlier amps; the "Black Shadow" speaker is a special EV speaker made just for Mesa. A lot of Fenders use Jensen speakers, as they have for decades. The last big speaker manufacturer is Eminence. They make a lot of really great speakers, and they make a lot of really terrible speakers. Most of the terrible speakers are used in cheaper amps like practice amps, budget amps, etc. But their better speakers are actually really nice, and more affordable than their Celestion, Jensen, and EV equivalents. They (Eminence) definitely have a lot of options to look at.
One thing to keep in mind when thinking speakers... pairing open-back and closed-back speakers can give you a really full-sounding tone, literally the best of both worlds. I have an old Peavey cabinet that I love to death... it's a 2x12 cabinet, with the top speaker open-back and the bottom speaker closed-back. I loaded the top with an Eminence Gov'nor (their version of a Celestion Vintage 30) and the bottom with an Eminence Swamp Thing (their version of a Peavey Sheffield). I have it wired so I can use it as a full-range cabinet, or I can plug two different amps into one speaker each for a stereo effect.
2.) Half stack is a head with one speaker cab. Full is a head with two speaker cabs (either side by side or on top of eachother). I've seen some giant stacks with FOUR cabs.
3.) Different speakers are designed for different things. Blackwidows(Peavey) are used for Bass. You can swap speakers out of amps and cabs, too. I know many people do this and have been known to get a better sound. Try out different cabs. Like I said, my roc pro is going through an actual bass amp that I'm simply using as a cab. This allows me to get a HUGE low end and have the luxury of adjusting the EQ's on the cab itself. With a normal cab, you don't have this, instead you control everything from the head. (If you have two cabs and one head, the one head will EQ and control both cabs).
I hope this helps and you're not confused. I'm not as good as Paco, McCready, Ian, at explaining but I've learned a LOT from them so I'm trying to explain the best I can.
JEFF HARDY AND JEFF AMENT USED TO LOOK THE SAME
"Pearl Jam always eases my mind and fires me up at the same time.”-Jeff Hardy
If I have a JCM800 1960 Lead cab (no clue on the year), more than likely what speakers are inside, Vintage 30s?
7/9/06 LA 1
7/10/06 LA 2
10/21/06 Bridge 1
I'm loving this amp discussion we haven't had a good one in a while.
depends on the letters next to the cab. The AX models I believe are V30's
and the TV (tall vintage cab) has greenbacks.
Many other Marshall cabs have G12T75's.
Marshall may have changed recently to Vintage 30's in everything since they are so popular.
The G12T75's are good speakers though too and certainly give you a higher wattage output.. in other words you get a louder tighter more forceful crispy clean at higher wattage levels. Works very well at high gain levels to keep things toegther and detailed.
I've been a greenback fiend since I first plugged in a TV cabinet with an old Mesa Maverick. Granted they weren't the old sought after "pre rola" greenbacks or anything but to me it sounded like heaven, but mainly because I like a smooth overdriven character and that works with fuzz for me too. The heavy magnet models or G12H's have even more bass which I like as a single coil junkie... but it still works with the clear articulate PAF's from hollowbodies too.
MIG, that was great man.
as for the rockerverb, i've been spending heaps of time googling around when i should be doing a major assingment. anyway, i stubmled across this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3-l6plJXpE&feature=related). dunno if it would interest any of you, but i was pretty impressed with the sound of it! aside from the fact he plays well, and has a heaps better guitar - that's just the sound i'm after!
Yeah it's a great amp. very simple no BS clean sound (EL34 though so it's a little woolier and meatier than the EL84 crispy chimey sound)
The OD channel is also quite crunchy.
To me when "pushed" the Rockerverb is more useful then the tiny terror. Tiny Terror gets the typical EL84 fizz going when pushed hard.
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yeah, that's true, I have that problem with my AD 15 as the gain gets unuseable past 1:00 so I tend to use effects as gain stages anyway but I did find using Tung Sol's in the preamp stage helped the fizz
I'm going to try the new issue mullards and some 5751's as well as some RFT's if I can find some in the near future.... that is after I finish the electronics swap in the strat.
There is a mod for the tiny terror, that helps out with the fizz, creates more usuable overdrive. I have a habit of putting NOS 5751's in all my single ended amps. (But I need to give the Mullards a try. Possible with the next tube order.) Just to help remove some of the over the top Pre-amp gain.
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