When Mike is soloing.......

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  • Drew263Drew263 Posts: 602
    Dogman3 wrote:
    Wait, I thought Alive was in the key of A?

    Main chord progression is Em, D, G, A. G major is not in the key of A.
  • ianvomsaalianvomsaal Posts: 1,224
    Drew263 wrote:
    Main chord progression is Em, D, G, A. G major is not in the key of A.
    INCORRECT - G-major has one sharp in it, A-Major has 3-sharps in it. You can have more sharps in a
    Key than in a given chord, but you don't typically have less (unless you're working with accidentals).
    Dogman3 wrote:
    Wait, I thought Alive was in the key of A?
    Yes, You are correct - Alive is in the Key of A-Major (or F#-Minor).
    Look at the Key Signature (there are 3-sharps in the Key Signature, thus A-MAJOR):
    click here: Pearl Jam ALIVE - Just click the PIC for a bigger view.
    The 3-sharps before the time signature means it's in the Key of A-Major (or F#-Minor).
    Cheers . . .

    - Ian
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  • Drew263Drew263 Posts: 602
    ianvomsaal wrote:
    INCORRECT - G-major has one sharp in it, A-Major has 3-sharps in it. You can have more sharps in a
    Key than in a given chord, but you don't typically have less (unless you're working with accidentals).

    - Ian

    Ian I wasn't saying it was in the key of G Major. What I was saying was that, THAT particuliar chord progression was not in the key of A. I understand what you're saying about the key signatures but I'm confused on how E, D, G, A is STILL in the key of A.

    To me it either looks like a cycle of fifths or if it's Em a 2,1,4,5 in the key of D.

    If I'm off track here..please..teach me.
  • ianvomsaalianvomsaal Posts: 1,224
    Drew263 wrote:
    Ian I wasn't saying it was in the key of G Major. What I was saying was that, THAT particuliar chord progression was not in the key of A. I understand what you're saying about the key signatures but I'm confused on how E, D, G, A is STILL in the key of A.

    To me it either looks like a cycle of fifths or if it's Em a 2,1,4,5 in the key of D.

    If I'm off track here..please..teach me.
    Okay, lets go over this . . .
    I think you may be overanalizing it, You need to look at the song as a whole, NOT just the Chorus.
    The Intro and Verses to Alive revolve around A (basically A-Maj and Asus4).
    The Pre-Chorus F & C, while the Chorus E, G, D, A shifts the feeling slightly, but not the key.
    The Bridge basically revolves around B, and YES the tunes relative minor of F# (along with more hints of A).
    The solo reflects the Chorus' E,G,D,A (remember, many times the last chord hints at the Key).
    The solo's chord progression says to me a repeated (5-1) V-I (E-A) over and over (song ending on a V (5) - thus a feeling of tension).
    The G and D are basically passing tones (but can also be though of as extensions of the A-Chord - 7 & 11th or 4th - added COLOR if you will).
    You can analyze it all you want, but the Key Signature states that it's in A-Major (and it doesn’t change throughout).
    The intro and verses revolve around A, while the chorus is a 5-1 progression (5-being E, 1-being A).
    Cheers . . .

    - Ian
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  • Drew263Drew263 Posts: 602
    ianvomsaal wrote:
    Okay, lets go over this . . .
    I think you may be overanalizing it, You need to look at the song as a whole, NOT just the Chorus.
    The Intro and Verses to Alive revolve around A (basically A-Maj and Asus4).
    The Pre-Chorus F & C, while the Chorus E, G, D, A shifts the feeling slightly, but not the key.
    The Bridge basically revolves around B, and YES the tunes relative minor of F# (along with more hints of A).
    The solo reflects the Chorus' E,G,D,A (remember, many times the last chord hints at the Key).
    The solo's chord progression says to me a repeated (5-1) V-I (E-A) over and over (song ending on a V (5) - thus a feeling of tension).
    The G and D are basically passing tones (but can also be though of as extensions of the A-Chord - 7 & 11th or 4th - added COLOR if you will).
    You can analyze it all you want, but the Key Signature states that it's in A-Major (and it doesn’t change throughout).
    The intro and verses revolve around A, while the chorus is a 5-1 progression (5-being E, 1-being A).
    Cheers . . .

    - Ian

    Ok thanks Ian. I think I was overanalyzing it.
  • Drew263 wrote:
    Ok thanks Ian. I think I was overanalyzing it.

    Sorry wrong quote I was addressing Ian's explanation

    E Mixolydian with a flat locrian, famously effecting in a jam. The locrian position of the scale is a minor half diminished chord. It really works well to flat the note (G#) to (G) and make it a major chord. It gives you the easily played open major chords of A - E - D - G and produces a great song that can really trick listeners cause it works so well, but it shouldn't.
    DO <> RE <> MI FA <> SOL <> LA <> SI DO
    1 <> 2 <> 3 4 <> 5 <> 6 <> 7 8
  • ianvomsaalianvomsaal Posts: 1,224
    Sorry wrong quote I was addressing Ian's explanation

    E Mixolydian with a flat locrian, famously effecting in a jam. The locrian position of the scale is a minor half diminished chord. It really works well to flat the note (G#) to (G) and make it a major chord. It gives you the easily played open major chords of A - E - D - G and produces a great song that can really trick listeners cause it works so well, but it shouldn't.
    A-Major Scale is A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#
    E-Mixolydian is just the V(5) of A.
    G#Locrian is just the VII(7) of A.
    So if you drop the G# to G you're basically modulating the tune from the Key of A to the Key of D.
    The point has kind of been beaten to death (moot-point) - Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think
    most of this is a bit beyond most people's understandings here on PJMP (m7b5 - Half Diminished), thus pointless.

    - Ian
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  • Drew263Drew263 Posts: 602
    ianvomsaal wrote:
    The point has kind of been beaten to death (moot-point) - Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think
    most of this is a bit beyond most people's understandings here on PJMP (m7b5 - Half Diminished), thus pointless.

    - Ian

    They have shitty instructors then. My instructor and I use those chords all the time.
  • ianvomsaal wrote:
    A-Major Scale is A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#
    E-Mixolydian is just the V(5) of A.
    G#Locrian is just the VII(7) of A.
    So if you drop the G# to G you're basically modulating the tune from the Key of A to the Key of D.
    The point has kind of been beaten to death (moot-point) - Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think
    most of this is a bit beyond most people's understandings here on PJMP (m7b5 - Half Diminished), thus pointless.

    - Ian
    i guarantee mike mccready doesn't know the first thing about this type of music theory......even hendrix didn't......they just know the basic blues scales and where to play them based on what chords are being played, and THAT'S IT!!!

    you don't need to know ANYTHING about which keys have how many sharps or flats to play like mike. period.
    "I'll tell you what: If all I had was Pearl Jam, and I didn't have another band in the world, I would not be worried. Because in there is the essence of making great music. You don't have to use it all at once, but it's there." - Neil Young
  • ianvomsaalianvomsaal Posts: 1,224
    Drew263 wrote:
    They have shitty instructors then. My instructor and I use those chords all the time.
    Exactly - there are a ton of Shitty Guitar Instructors out there, which is why so many people don't know anything about
    theory - Thats why I recommended getting a qualified instructor - someone with a background in music like a music major.
    StuffnJunk wrote:
    i guarantee mike mccready doesn't know the first thing about this type of music theory......even hendrix didn't......they just know the basic blues scales and where to play them based on what chords are being played, and THAT'S IT!!!
    you don't need to know ANYTHING about which keys have how many sharps or flats to play like mike. period.
    This seems to be a little truculent/hostile - it's sort of an absurd thing to say, and yet it's also a fairly presumptuous thing to say.
    And unfortunately you are INCORRECT.
    Both McCready and Hendrix studied a little music theory - I've read that they both studied a little music theory to try to help them
    figure out what they were doing, and why (and even Stevie Ray Vaughan did this later in his career). You don't need to know a lot of
    music theory (a little can go a long way), but it always helpful to know certain things (like what Key you're in, or truly underdstanding
    what scales, modes, or notes you can play over certain progressions/chords, and why those scales, modes, or notes actually work).

    - Ian
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  • Dogman3Dogman3 Posts: 330
    SOME music theory is essential. Since I was 11 (now 18), I was always on and off with the guitar, I was unable to ever "get it". Why couldn't I sound good, why did everything sound bad? I versed myself at 16 on a little bit of theory while picking up the guitar for the gazillionth time, and finally "got it". Basic theory is good enough. Its good to know how progressions work, scales, and modes. I don't know about the circle of 5ths or even farther advanced theory, but I don't even know if I should go for it yet, as I'm still learning on modes.

    I understand how Alive in is A, with the three sharps, but what about if you don't have the luxury of sheet music? Also, I'm sure you've gone over this millions of times in this topic or elsewhere, but how is the solo of Em pentatonic able to go with an A major? Same number of sharps in both scales?
  • you say i am incorrect in giant letters, then you underline exactly my point - they know "a little" music theory. not irrelevant stuff like how many sharps and flats each key has. you don't need to know that to play rock guitar.

    as i once heard eddie van halen say "if it sounds good, it is good"

    stone writes a song like alive, throws together chords that don't necessarily work perfectly together, aren't straight up I IV V chord progression, but they SOUND GOOD.....mike comes in, tries soloing in different keys, hits the nail on the head with the E minor scale, and IT SOUNDS GOOD....thats all they know, i'm sure they have admitted that in countless interviews

    mike and stone don't write the song out in sheet music and look at how many sharps and flats are in the key and debate if the locrain or mixolydian scale would best suit a song with this many sharps and flats

    if i sound hostile, its because i think you are getting WAY TOO COMPLICATED in explaining to BEGINNERS how to solo and where.....beginners may end up giving up if they think it is really all that complicated, and the truth is - ITS NOT ALL THAT COMPLICATED

    99.999999999999999999999 percent of rock musicians don't read music.....and the ones who do are bands like dream theater, whose only fans are music theory majors who listen and marvel at how complicated the music is

    they just know the basics of theory - a little theory as you say - what chords go together, and where to solo based on that....if your friend is strumming A, E, D you solo in F# minor...if your friend is strumming G, D, C, EM you solo in E minor, etc

    i know i just heard an interview with stone where he said some of his songs sound unique because he is putting together chords that don't really belong together, cuz he doesn't know any better.......the actual artist doesn't know what he's doing, he justs knows it sounds good.....then it is up to music critics to analyze the song, decide what key its in, etc, etc
    "I'll tell you what: If all I had was Pearl Jam, and I didn't have another band in the world, I would not be worried. Because in there is the essence of making great music. You don't have to use it all at once, but it's there." - Neil Young
  • ianvomsaalianvomsaal Posts: 1,224
    If you go back an re-read what I posted, it was addressing what Colors of Musid went into, and then I said . . .
    "I think most of this is a bit beyond most people's understandings here on PJMP (m7b5 - Half Diminished), thus pointless."
    ianvomsaal wrote:
    A-Major Scale is A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#
    E-Mixolydian is just the V(5) of A.
    G#Locrian is just the VII(7) of A.
    So if you drop the G# to G you're basically modulating the tune from the Key of A to the Key of D.
    The point has kind of been beaten to death (moot-point) - Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think
    most of this is a bit beyond most people's understandings here on PJMP (m7b5 - Half Diminished), thus pointless.
    - Ian
    So you see, I didn't understand why COLORS went into that when most of this theory is beyond peoples understanding here on PJMP.
    That's why I said it was POINTLESS . . . you could have just agree with me on the "pointless" quip and left it at that, and not gotten so belligerent.
    StuffnJunk wrote:
    i guarantee mike mccready doesn't know the first thing about this type of music theory......even hendrix didn't......they just know the basic blues scales and where to play them based on what chords are being played, and THAT'S IT!!! you don't need to know ANYTHING about which keys have how many sharps or flats to play like mike. period.
    I said you were wrong in larger letters because you came off like Mr. anti-theory (Mr. I know it all), when I know damn well that they both studied some
    theory (interviews). Perhaps you might want to go back and re-read things next time so you don't come off so negative and actually a little fatuous.
    I'm done - Cheers . . .

    - Ian
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  • well, i got something out of all this......i learned the words "truculent" and "fatuous"
    "I'll tell you what: If all I had was Pearl Jam, and I didn't have another band in the world, I would not be worried. Because in there is the essence of making great music. You don't have to use it all at once, but it's there." - Neil Young
  • Drew263Drew263 Posts: 602
    Looks like Stone has had or has an instructor. This dude worked with the head of the composition department at Berklee School of Music (where my instructor graduated from), so he knows what he's doing. I doubt Stone is or has worked with him just to learn blues scales.

    http://kevincallahan.org/teaching.html

    Also, Stone graduated from The Northwest School of the Arts...so the idea that he doesn't have a strong foundation in music theory is hilarious to me. Just b/c you play rock music that is simple as a career, doesn't mean you can't easily play jazz, fusion, etc.
  • ianvomsaalianvomsaal Posts: 1,224
    Drew263 wrote:
    Looks like Stone has had or has an instructor. This dude worked with the head of the composition department at Berklee School of Music (where my instructor graduated from), so he knows what he's doing. I doubt Stone is or has worked with him just to learn blues scales.

    http://kevincallahan.org/teaching.html

    Also, Stone graduated from The Northwest School of the Arts...so the idea that he doesn't have a strong foundation in music theory is hilarious to me. Just b/c you play rock music that is simple as a career, doesn't mean you can't easily play jazz, fusion, etc.
    ahem (as i clear my throat) . . . thank you for posting this drew.
    as for "truculent" and "fatuous" . . . uhmm, i didn't know they were uncommon words, i went to college (music-degree).
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  • so stone studied theory....you got me. i didn't say he never ever took lessons. i said at this point in his life he just plays what sounds good to him.

    in an effort to end this (cuz it really could go on forever!) let's look at whats going on here......you have a music degree......i have a degree or two in education. i am a special ed teacher. playing guitar is my hobby/obsession.

    the initial question here was something like "what fret do i solo on for yellow ledbetter?" as a teacher, my instinct is to give someone a nice little chunk of info that they can digest and hopefully get something out of. not overload them with info and confuse them. so i gave some relatively simple responses for where to solo.

    a few responses later, you came in with some pretty advanced music theory. since you are a music major, and content knowledge is your thing, this was your instinct. i was hoping that the beginners who asked the initial question wouldn't get discouraged by this information overload and think this soloing business is way too complicated.

    so i came in and tried to basically say "soloing is simple, don't let all this info confuse you". and that PJ themselves don't think of music in these terms. maybe they have learned it in the past (stone that is, mike to a lesser extent and eddie to an even lesser extent) but as i've seen, what you've learned in a classroom is a foundation, but actual hands-on experience is where it's really at.

    so what we had was a beginner asking a question we both knew the answer to, and we both jumped at the chance to do our thing. and i guess we kinda stepped on each others toes in the process.

    i'm waving the white flag.

    p.s. you can't possibly argue that "truculent" and "fatuous" are common, everyday words used by anyone and everyone who's been to college.
    "I'll tell you what: If all I had was Pearl Jam, and I didn't have another band in the world, I would not be worried. Because in there is the essence of making great music. You don't have to use it all at once, but it's there." - Neil Young
  • ianvomsaalianvomsaal Posts: 1,224
    Okay, a white flag it is, but let me elucidate (clarify) some things in a nutshell . . .
    Jam10 has sent me quite a few PM's about Music Theory, Ear Training, Relative Major and Minor, etc, etc.
    (Jam10 can attest to this, and I'd be happy to post what we went over).
    My reply was simply geared towards him (since he asked the question), and it was in regards to what we had already gone over in our PM’s.
    As for truculent and fatuous, I guess I'm just well read.

    - Ian
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  • Jam10Jam10 Posts: 654
    That's true, I PM Ian all the time regarding music theory, ear training and other general questions. Ian is very, very knowledagble and has been a great help. Thanks Ian!
  • Drew263Drew263 Posts: 602
    I don't think Ian has posted anything theory wise that is "advanced".

    It's not hard to figure out the major scale.

    W W H W W W H

    A B C# D E F# G# A.

    And what's the fun in playing music, if you don't know what you're doing? Things sound good for a reason. If you don't understand it, how can you ever create?

    Ex. I like to use Ab Major when creating something in the key of C because when I practice soloing with the chord progression, it forces me to address the Ab chord. Ab Major is obviously not in the key of C, so why does it sounds good? They share a common note. C

    Granted, this is all jmo...
  • MLC2006MLC2006 Posts: 861
    you were probably right about Hendrix to a point, since he died at such a young age. but I'd be willing to bet money you're wrong on Mike. at his age, he would now be playing guitar for well over 25 years, he knows some theory. in that amount of time, you're going to pick up some theory even if it's by accident. I'm sure he doesn't know theory to the level of Satriani or Malmsteen, but I can guarantee he knows a hell of a lot more than you'd think.
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