When Mike is soloing.......

Jam10

In Yellow Ledbetter, is he using the minor blues scale pattern #1? What key is the solo in? I am just really trying to understand what he is doing in this solo because I am working on this song. I've been playing guitar about a year and a half so sorry for the amature question. I find if you get in the guitar players head and understand what he is doing and thinking, it makes learning the song that much easier. In most of Mike solo's, does he use the blues scales most of the time?

Thanks

xtremehardy388

Jam10 wrote:

In Yellow Ledbetter, is he using the minor blues scale pattern #1? What key is the solo in? I am just really trying to understand what he is doing in this solo because I am working on this song. I've been playing guitar about a year and a half so sorry for the amature question. I find if you get in the guitar players head and understand what he is doing and thinking, it makes learning the song that much easier. In most of Mike solo's, does he use the blues scales most of the time?

Thanks

I know it's the same scale Jimi uses for Little Wing. Also, don't be sorry for questions. Without questions, we'd all be dumb.

scot88

E minor pentatonic.


EDIT.... look below. that's correct. i think little wing is in e minior though, right?

or not. who knows. i suck at theory.

StuffnJunk

C# minor pentatonic.....main position at 9th fret:

e - 9 , 12
B - 9 , 12
G - 9 , 11
D - 9 , 11
A - 9 , 11
E - 9 , 12


next little box:

e - 12 , 14
B - 12 , 14
G - 13
D
A
E

box before it:

e
B
G
D
A - 7 , 9
E - 7 , 9

you can get a whole lotta mileage outta this....mike sure did!

there are other places to play the scale, but these places are the real "meat and potatoes"

Jam10

I thought it was in C# minor, but how does that go if the song is in the key of E?

StuffnJunk

its a whole big long explanation, but basically since the song is in E major, you would solo using the E MAJOR scale, but no one solos using the major scale cuz it sounds "happy" and "lame"......you solo using minor scales, cuz they sound "sad" and "cool".....this is really a basic explanation!!!!

for each key, the "relative minor" scale that wolks with it is three steps below it (or three frets below it)

again, you can research this on your own, i am giving you a quick overview

here are the main keys most rock songs are in, the chords used, and where to solo (main position of pentatonic scale)


key of G - chords - G, C, D, Em........solo in E minor (12th fret)


key of A - chords - A, D, E, F#m.....solo in F#m (2nd or 14th fret)


key of C - chords - C, F, G, Am.....solo in A minor (5th fret)


key of D - chords - D, G, A, Bm....solo in B minor (7th fret)


key of E - chords - E, A, B, C#m.....solo in C#m (9th fret)


look up the Circle of Fifths and I, IV, V chord progressions to get more into this

ianvomsaal

- The solo is in C#Minor or E-Major - you can basically play whatever you want in those 2 (relative) key's and it all work fine - You can play:
E-Major/C#Minor Pentatonic (or Blues scale); E-Ionian; F#Dorian; G#Phrygian; A-Lydian; B-Mixolydian; C#Aeolian (aka Minor); D#Lydian).
Why, because the C#Minor scale is: C#-D#-E-F#-G#-A-B-C, and the E-Major Scale is: E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D#-E.
NOTICE THAT THE NOTES IN BOTH OF THESE KEYS ARE EXACTLY THE SAME, THEY'RE JUST ARRANGED DIFFERENTLY - GET IT?

- I'd recommend that you don't learn any solo note for note because it'll only end up limiting you (you may be playing the same notes, but then again
"you're only playing the same notes." You'll NEVER have the same feeling or emotion behind the solo that Mike did, because lets face it, you're not
Mike (no-one is Mike but Mike) - and why just be a CD-player that only plays the CD when you can be yourself and eventually kick ass on a solo.

- You can always quote "key parts" of a solo, but then take it in a different direction and make it your own. That's where your real creativity shines
through & separates the real players from all the other uncreative copycats that only know the solo one way, and can't improv to save their ass.
Cheers . . .

- Ian

offaroundthebend

StuffnJunk wrote:

its a whole big long explanation, but basically since the song is in E major, you would solo using the E MAJOR scale, but no one solos using the major scale cuz it sounds "happy" and "lame"......you solo using minor scales, cuz they sound "sad" and "cool".....this is really a basic explanation!!!!

for each key, the "relative minor" scale that wolks with it is three steps below it (or three frets below it)

again, you can research this on your own, i am giving you a quick overview

here are the main keys most rock songs are in, the chords used, and where to solo (main position of pentatonic scale)


key of G - chords - G, C, D, Em........solo in E minor (12th fret)


key of A - chords - A, D, E, F#m.....solo in F#m (2nd or 14th fret)


key of C - chords - C, F, G, Am.....solo in A minor (5th fret)


key of D - chords - D, G, A, Bm....solo in B minor (7th fret)


key of E - chords - E, A, B, C#m.....solo in C#m (9th fret)


look up the Circle of Fifths and I, IV, V chord progressions to get more into this

great job with that...i could use a lesson from you...im having a hard time figuring out the key of some songs...especially pj songs...i know a good way to fin out is that its usually the 1st chord of the song...but sometimes i still cant figure out what that is...any other suggestions?

Anon

[quote="ianvomsaal
- I'd recommend that you don't learn any solo note for note because it'll only end up limiting you (you may be playing the same notes, but then again
"you're only playing the same notes." You'll [b"]NEVER[/b] have the same feeling or emotion behind the solo that Mike did, because lets face it, you're not
Mike (no-one is Mike but Mike) - and why just be a CD-player that only plays the CD when you can be yourself and eventually kick ass on a solo.

- You can always quote "key parts" of a solo, but then take it in a different direction and make it your own. That's where your real creativity shines
through & separates the real players from all the other uncreative copycats that only know the solo one way, and can't improv to save their ass.
Cheers . . .

- Ian[/quote]
I agree, dont play other peoples solos, learn the noticable licks and then improvise the rest. Playing a solo exactly as it is is almost boring after a few goes. I personally never play the same solo twice in a song. I've always been happier to 'suck out the guts' and improvise around that. Playing it note for note is, like you said, just popping in the CD.

Don't forget, most people who write the solos, improvise themselves. Jimmy Page barely ever did a solo note for note the way he originally wrote it.

xtremehardy388

Making the solo up is part of making someone elses song connect more to you. I think that anyway

gimmesometruth27

StuffnJunk wrote:

its a whole big long explanation, but basically since the song is in E major, you would solo using the E MAJOR scale, but no one solos using the major scale cuz it sounds "happy" and "lame"......you solo using minor scales, cuz they sound "sad" and "cool".....this is really a basic explanation!!!!

for each key, the "relative minor" scale that wolks with it is three steps below it (or three frets below it)

again, you can research this on your own, i am giving you a quick overview

here are the main keys most rock songs are in, the chords used, and where to solo (main position of pentatonic scale)


key of G - chords - G, C, D, Em........solo in E minor (12th fret)


key of A - chords - A, D, E, F#m.....solo in F#m (2nd or 14th fret)


key of C - chords - C, F, G, Am.....solo in A minor (5th fret)


key of D - chords - D, G, A, Bm....solo in B minor (7th fret)


key of E - chords - E, A, B, C#m.....solo in C#m (9th fret)


look up the Circle of Fifths and I, IV, V chord progressions to get more into this

thanks for posting this. its a great refresher for me. i am a straight rhythm player in my band and i rarely solo. mostly because our lead player is great so i don't need to solo, and also i get really nervous about soloing because when i improvise i tend to get lost and hit a wrong note, or i try to be flashy and get someplace on the fretboard and have a hard time getting back to where i need to be before we all come back together after the solo. this will help me out. it helps that most of the time my audience is fairly intoxicated so nobody but me and the band notice any foul ups.

Dogman3

Ian helped me out alot on theory recently. Thanks, man.

Anon

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

when i improvise i tend to get lost and hit a wrong note, or i try to be flashy and get someplace on the fretboard and have a hard time getting back to where i need to be before we all come back together after the solo. this will help me out. it helps that most of the time my audience is fairly intoxicated so nobody but me and the band notice any foul ups.

See, that's why a lot of people are reluctant to improvise. They worry about getting back in time. Hehe i laughed at what you said about the audience being intoxicated, isn't that just so true, 90% of them will never notice . Can you try to practice with a metronome? Don't listen to the beat, try and feel it. Count it in your head, emphasise it, play around it. Recognize it in how you play, don't just hear it as a 1234 count. Like if you're playing fast passages, try accenting the notes on the beat. If you're playing more rhythmic, syncopated solos, have a go at playing the downbeats downwards and the upbeats upwards. That doesn't always mean play 1234 down and 1& 2& 3& 4& up. You might have to divide that further, depending on the tempo, and play ALL the beats and the ands down, and the notes in between up. Same goes for strumming. It seems pretty obvious, but if you're already doing it, try and emphasize the downbeats a bit more. Listen to the beat and work around it.

You see it alot in in guitarists with no rhythm - they try and play the wrong notes in the wrong direction. (not that i am in anyway suggesting you don't have rhythm!!)

Rhythm = 100 times better than speed and flashiness. When my brother taught me to play he was anal about that, he was always on my back about it. It was good advice for me.

Edited because my spelling was attrocious!

Anon

Dogman3 wrote:

Ian helped me out alot on theory recently. Thanks, man.

He seems to have a way with explaining things easily and quickly. Mostly i know what i mean but i don't think i'm so good at explaining. We are lucky to have Ian around for sure.

ianvomsaal

Dogman3 wrote:

Ian helped me out alot on theory recently. Thanks, man.

Sure, No problem - hopefully what I've gone over is somewhat helpful.
When I’m not recording in the studios (which is usually), then I'm teaching music theory fundamentals to my guitar students.
It all breaks down to understanding where you are, where you're going, and hopefully the simplest route to get there.
All the crazy names and terms you hear/read are basically just a vernacular used to get everyone to the same point.
Cheers . . .

- Ian

Kegzy05

Thankyou also to Ian and all who always help with the theory of things. I have found many posts very informative and helpful. I have a question, it may be stupid or something im missing. If alive is in the key of A Major then wouldnt the relative minor scale be F# minor penta. Yet the solo is play in E minor pentatonic?

Anon

Alive is G major/E minor pentatonic scale.

Jam10

Thanks guys for all the advice! Another question.......when I am in the key of A, can I solo using the C major scale along with the A minor blues scale? Or if I am in the Key of E like in Yellow Ledbetter, can I solo using the G major scale along with the E minor blues scale?

Thanks

Jam10

Sorry another example, if the song is in the key of G, am I correct saying that I can use the A# blues scale?

ianvomsaal

Remember the sheet I forwarded you on Key Signatures???
click:KEY SIGNATURES
Just take a look at what is sharp or flat in each Key Signature.
In the Key of A-Major there are 3-sharps (F#,C#,G#) - thus the scale is A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G# (on & on)
Now keeping that A-Major scale in mind take a look at the sheet I forwarded you on Scales and Modes.
click:SCALES & MODES
The number in front of each scale/mode dictates a particular note in the given scale, thus in the A-Major Scale:
1=A IONIAN (Major & Major-Pentatonic) (you'd start this mode on the A-5th fret).
2=B DORIAN (B-7th fret)
3=C# PHRYGIAN (C#-9th fret)
4=D LYDIAN (D-10th fret)
5=E MIXOLYDIAN (E-12th fret)
6=F# AEOLIAN (Minor & Minor-Pentatonic) (F#-14th fret or 2nd fret)
7=G# LOCRIAN (G#-16th fret or 4th fret)

---

G-Major only has one sharp (F#), thus the scale is G-A-B-C-D-E-F# (and continues over and over again)
So the same rules apply: G=1, A=2, B=3, C=4, D=5, E=6, F#=7
Just match the number (#) up with the appropriate scale/mode from the diagram, then just move to that spot on
the neck and start at that beginning note (it helps to memorize the notes on your low-E-String past the 12th fret).
BTW, the Blues-Scale is basically the same thing as the Pentatonic-Scale (with the exception of 1-added note).
Cheers . . .

- Ian

Drew263

Jam10 wrote:

Thanks guys for all the advice! Another question.......when I am in the key of A, can I solo using the C major scale along with the A minor blues scale? Or if I am in the Key of E like in Yellow Ledbetter, can I solo using the G major scale along with the E minor blues scale?

Thanks

A minor is the relative minor to C Major
A Major is the relative major to F# Minor.

So key of A major? No. Key of A minor? Yes.

Drew263

Pj_Gurl wrote:

Alive is G major/E minor pentatonic scale.

I prefer to improvise and follow the chord progression. E,G,D,A I believe is a cycle of 5ths so it doesn't stay in one key.

Live, I can hear Mike following the chord progression in his solo.

ianvomsaal

Jam10 wrote:

Thanks guys for all the advice! Another question.......when I am in the key of A, can I solo using the C major scale along with the A minor blues scale? Or if I am in the Key of E like in Yellow Ledbetter, can I solo using the G major scale along with the E minor blues scale?
Thanks

Drew263 wrote:

A minor is the relative minor to C Major
A Major is the relative major to F# Minor.
So key of A major? No. Key of A minor? Yes.

I posted Relative Major and Minor just below in my Key Signature link.
Here, click this . . . again (sigh) click:KEY SIGNATURES

gimmesometruth27

Pj_Gurl wrote:

See, that's why a lot of people are reluctant to improvise. They worry about getting back in time. Hehe i laughed at what you said about the audience being intoxicated, isn't that just so true, 90% of them will never notice . Can you try to practice with a metronome? Don't listen to the beat, try and feel it. Count it in your head, emphasise it, play around it. Recognize it in how you play, don't just hear it as a 1234 count. Like if you're playing fast passages, try accenting the notes on the beat. If you're playing more rhythmic, syncopated solos, have a go at playing the downbeats downwards and the upbeats upwards. That doesn't always mean play 1234 down and 1& 2& 3& 4& up. You might have to divide that further, depending on the tempo, and play ALL the beats and the ands down, and the notes in between up. Same goes for strumming. It seems pretty obvious, but if you're already doing it, try and emphasize the downbeats a bit more. Listen to the beat and work around it.

You see it alot in in guitarists with no rhythm - they try and play the wrong notes in the wrong direction. (not that i am in anyway suggesting you don't have rhythm!!)

Rhythm = 100 times better than speed and flashiness. When my brother taught me to play he was anal about that, he was always on my back about it. It was good advice for me.

Edited because my spelling was attrocious!

thanks for the great advice. i practiced with a metronome after band practice tonight and tried the accenting on the beat tip. i am thinking of getting a cheep digital recorder so i can record and loop chord progressions then improvise on top of that.

i completely agree that rhythm is 100% better than speed and being flashy. i am a solid rhythm player and i never aspired to be a shredder or flashy player. i just never had the desire. i just kind of wanted to hold everything together and be a solid rhythm player. now that i have been gigging 6 times a month for the last 4 years i want to expand and improvise a little more. the info posted earlier has been a considerable help already. thanks to everyone for contributing to this thread.

who's_pearljam?

What Ian has posted up there took a lot of time and is a great service to people here! That's some great stuff to which I can add some bad habits, too

I've been playing for years and I know my scales, but another thing to get on if you really want your own voice and personality on the guitar is bending and slide ups and downs, and vibrato.
Get good at bending strings and when you hit a sour note, just bend it up to the next note and it'll sound like you know what you're doing!


Practicing with a metronome is a must, too and that's great advice. Another thing that adds personality to soloing is playing off the beat. If you hear a laid back guitar solo, like Jerry Garcia, a lot of times, he's playing just a little behind the beat and it gives a relaxed feel.
If you listen to Keith Richards playing rhythm guitar on a lot of their stuff and you'll hear that he is a little ahead of the beat. He actually sets the beat and the drummer comes in behind a bit. That adds a little sense of tension and urgency. Learned from Chuck Berry.
Listening to Frank Zappa solo is amazing, too, because he often plays way out of the beat and in different time signatures, but he had this sense of bringing it back to the beat every once in a while. Jimmy Page does that, too. He plays like he's teetering on the edge of a cliff then when he brings it back at the end, it's so satisfying.

Anon

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

thanks for the great advice. i practiced with a metronome after band practice tonight and tried the accenting on the beat tip..

you're welcome , it's great it was some help to you.

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

now that i have been gigging 6 times a month for the last 4 years i want to expand and improvise a little more.

oh man i think i need to sleep. i'm seeing things. I for serious thought you said 'now that you have been giggling'. I thought to myself 'what is he talking about'. Wow, what am i talking about more like it

pnjguy

StuffnJunk wrote:

its a whole big long explanation, but basically since the song is in E major, you would solo using the E MAJOR scale, but no one solos using the major scale cuz it sounds "happy" and "lame"......you solo using minor scales, cuz they sound "sad" and "cool".....this is really a basic explanation!!!!

thats not correct. C# minor pentatonic is the same notes as E major pentatonic. The only difference is the shape of the scale. But they are the same notes. If a song is in major, its going to sound happy regardless unless you play it in minor of the key that its in. So for ledbetter, you can actually play it in e minor pent if you want. Listen to "lenny" by Stevie ray vaughan. Its is e major, he plays C# minor as well as E minor. There, you can hear the difference between happy and sad. But simply going down three half steps doesnt make it sound less happy.

StuffnJunk

pnjguy wrote:

thats not correct. C# minor pentatonic is the same notes as E major pentatonic. The only difference is the shape of the scale. But they are the same notes. If a song is in major, its going to sound happy regardless unless you play it in minor of the key that its in. So for ledbetter, you can actually play it in e minor pent if you want. Listen to "lenny" by Stevie ray vaughan. Its is e major, he plays C# minor as well as E minor. There, you can hear the difference between happy and sad. But simply going down three half steps doesnt make it sound less happy.

a major scale contains seven different notes.....a minor pentatonic scale (as i play it) only contains five different notes

pnjguy

StuffnJunk wrote:

a major scale contains seven different notes.....a minor pentatonic scale (as i play it) only contains five different notes

pentatonic just means 5 notes, either minor or major. Major pentatonic would be those 5 same notes as C# minor pentatonic.

Pappas

StuffnJunk wrote:

C# minor pentatonic.....main position at 9th fret:

e - 9 , 12
B - 9 , 12
G - 9 , 11
D - 9 , 11
A - 9 , 11
E - 9 , 12


next little box:

e - 12 , 14
B - 12 , 14
G - 13
D
A
E

box before it:

e
B
G
D
A - 7 , 9
E - 7 , 9

you can get a whole lotta mileage outta this....mike sure did!

there are other places to play the scale, but these places are the real "meat and potatoes"

this is exactly correct

you can get a whole heap of licks happening just with these box combo's as i like to call them!

Dogman3

Wait, I thought Alive was in the key of A?