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Boom question/i hate keyboards

StuffnJunkStuffnJunk Posts: 896
edited June 2008 in Musicians and Gearheads
did Boom play on everything in 2003? am i right that he stayed on stage for every song, even ones like Animal that have absolutley no room for organ?

then it seems like in 2004 on onward he is only onstage for songs that "require" organ....he is not there for every song anymore - is that right?

i am in a cover band... we have 2 guitars, and i have been frustrated as shit trying to get the other guitarist to turn down/not play in parts of the song....just as i am getting a handle on him, the other guys bring a keyboardist down to our last practice...i HATED it, the sounds are so cheesy, all it does is add to the overall NOISE, and i HATED it (did i mention that?)

so i wonder how someone like stone feels about Boom, can't say i've ever heard him or any of the others shower Boom with compliments in interviews....stone goes from his riffs being the centerpice of songs to one little piece of the big mush of sound they have now

now i know why he switched from a les paul to strat - i was thinking the same thing at practice "why play this heavy ass LP when you can hardly hear me anyhow? i may as well just play my strat, for no other reason than its lighter"

i guess its ego on my part, i'd rather be a big part of the song as opposed to just part of the mix...sue me
"I'll tell you what: If all I had was Pearl Jam, and I didn't have another band in the world, I would not be worried. Because in there is the essence of making great music. You don't have to use it all at once, but it's there." - Neil Young
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  • xtremehardy388xtremehardy388 Posts: 2,759
    In 2003, he played on Crazy Mary, Alive, Black, You Are, Love Boat Captain and a few others. I don't know if it's over all noise but it doesn't back sense on songs like Alive, at all...actually, it kinda annoyed me a bit. You're not alone on that.
    Grand Rapids '04, Detroit '06
    JEFF HARDY AND JEFF AMENT USED TO LOOK THE SAME
    "Pearl Jam always eases my mind and fires me up at the same time.”-Jeff Hardy
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    StuffnJunk wrote:
    did Boom play on everything in 2003? am i right that he stayed on stage for every song, even ones like Animal that have absolutley no room for organ?

    then it seems like in 2004 on onward he is only onstage for songs that "require" organ....he is not there for every song anymore - is that right?

    i am in a cover band... we have 2 guitars, and i have been frustrated as shit trying to get the other guitarist to turn down/not play in parts of the song....just as i am getting a handle on him, the other guys bring a keyboardist down to our last practice...i HATED it, the sounds are so cheesy, all it does is add to the overall NOISE, and i HATED it (did i mention that?)

    so i wonder how someone like stone feels about Boom, can't say i've ever heard him or any of the others shower Boom with compliments in interviews....stone goes from his riffs being the centerpice of songs to one little piece of the big mush of sound they have now

    now i know why he switched from a les paul to strat - i was thinking the same thing at practice "why play this heavy ass LP when you can hardly hear me anyhow? i may as well just play my strat, for no other reason than its lighter"

    i guess its ego on my part, i'd rather be a big part of the song as opposed to just part of the mix...sue me
    Listen to the Black Crowes - AMAZING use of organ!
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • All Those YesterdaysAll Those Yesterdays Posts: 2,723
    keeponrockin wrote:
    Listen to the Black Crowes - AMAZING use of organ!

    Totally agree on the crowes, and glad PJ has added.
    E. Lansing-98 Columbus-00,03,10 Detroit-00,03 (1&2),06, 14 Cleveland-03,06,10 Toledo-04, Grand Rapids-04,06 London-05, Toronto-05, Indianapolis 10, East Troy (1&2) 11, Chicago 13, Detroit 14

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  • StuffnJunkStuffnJunk Posts: 896
    xtremehardy388 wrote:
    In 2003, he played on Crazy Mary, Alive, Black, You Are, Love Boat Captain and a few others. I don't know if it's over all noise but it doesn't back sense on songs like Alive, at all...actually, it kinda annoyed me a bit. You're not alone on that.
    the worst is the piano chords in Rockin in the Free World, too awful to even put into words...
    "I'll tell you what: If all I had was Pearl Jam, and I didn't have another band in the world, I would not be worried. Because in there is the essence of making great music. You don't have to use it all at once, but it's there." - Neil Young
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    StuffnJunk wrote:
    the worst is the piano chords in Rockin in the Free World, too awful to even put into words...
    I disagree, I REALLY dig the piano there. Adds sorta a bluesy element. The Boss also has GREAT use of piano.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • xtremehardy388xtremehardy388 Posts: 2,759
    StuffnJunk wrote:
    the worst is the piano chords in Rockin in the Free World, too awful to even put into words...
    YES!!! That's what I was trying to think of (after a long time of trying to forget). It works with the song for a bluesey tone but totally clashes IMO with the heavy distortion and solos from Mike
    Grand Rapids '04, Detroit '06
    JEFF HARDY AND JEFF AMENT USED TO LOOK THE SAME
    "Pearl Jam always eases my mind and fires me up at the same time.”-Jeff Hardy
  • PaukPauk Posts: 1,084
    I think organ is one of those things that sounds great or awful. Boom is great becausehe obviously understands the music and messes around a bit, not just playing the plain chords. On the other hand, I can imagine an inexperienced keyboard player would be much worse. Playing only the general chords does only fill out the sound (or add to the overall noise as you put it). Unless the keyboardist is truly spectacular there's no need for them. They do kinda impede on rhythm guitar a touch, but I don't think it's as big a deal in Pearl jam as you make out. Personally I can hardly make out the organ over the rest of the band other than in Crazy Mary.
    Paul
    '06 - London, Dublin, Reading
    '07 - Katowice, Wembley, Dusseldorf, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    '09 - London, Manchester, London
    '12 - Manchester, Manchester, Berlin, Stockholm, Copenhagen
  • PJamGrunge10PJamGrunge10 Posts: 596
    I personally think keyboards have no room in a ROCK song... slower songs are fine if done right. But I think it sounds stupid in songs like "Save You" and such.
    Stone Gossard...riffmeister extraordinaire!

    I am a man, I am advanced.....I am the first man to borrow Stone's leather pants!
  • All Those YesterdaysAll Those Yesterdays Posts: 2,723
    PJamGrunge10 wrote:
    I personally think keyboards have no room in a ROCK song... slower songs are fine if done right. But I think it sounds stupid in songs like "Save You" and such.


    Really? So you don't like Deep Purple? Don't get me wrong there is always a situation where it doesn't fit. But that organ in Save You is a cool fit.
    E. Lansing-98 Columbus-00,03,10 Detroit-00,03 (1&2),06, 14 Cleveland-03,06,10 Toledo-04, Grand Rapids-04,06 London-05, Toronto-05, Indianapolis 10, East Troy (1&2) 11, Chicago 13, Detroit 14

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  • Brisk.Brisk. Posts: 11,557
    its not a keyboard

    is a B3!
  • westsidepiewestsidepie Posts: 627
    All Those Yesterdays wrote:
    Really? So you don't like Deep Purple? Don't get me wrong there is always a situation where it doesn't fit. But that organ in Save You is a cool fit.

    Also, in 60's rock the organ really had the role or a role equal to the lead guitar. Some of those song had great organ parts. Take a look at the thread in other music on 60s psychedelic rock. I do agree, however, that it has to fit into the song, and you have to compose the piece with the organ in mind for it to really be integrated into the sound of the piece. Also, organ can be really effective in heavy music as well. I think Dream Theater and some of Ozzy's bands have done heavy organ well.
    To pie I will reply
    But mr. justam
    is who I am

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  • AnonAnon Posts: 11,175
    All Those Yesterdays wrote:
    Really? So you don't like Deep Purple?
    Deep purples 'lazy'. one of the best organ intro/solos ever. (the guitar solo goes alright too ;))

    and let's not forget the doors.
  • lucylespianlucylespian Posts: 2,403
    Pj_Gurl wrote:
    Deep purples 'lazy'. one of the best organ intro/solos ever. (the guitar solo goes alright too ;))

    and let's not forget the doors.

    Absolutely YES, "Lazy", best song off Machinehad thanks to the organ intro, and let's not forget No Quarter.
    I love keys in a rock band. One of the most beloved Australian bands ever, Cold Chisel, had a keys player as the main songwriter and you can't do their best songs without them.
    Axel, for all his personality quirks also wrote some great keys parts, November Rain, Estranged spring to mind.
    Music is not a competetion.
  • All Those YesterdaysAll Those Yesterdays Posts: 2,723
    I would rather see two guitars and a organ, then three guitars. But that's my opinion. They could have a guy up there blowing on a old whiskey jug during Do The Evolution, and it would still probably rock pretty good!!!!
    E. Lansing-98 Columbus-00,03,10 Detroit-00,03 (1&2),06, 14 Cleveland-03,06,10 Toledo-04, Grand Rapids-04,06 London-05, Toronto-05, Indianapolis 10, East Troy (1&2) 11, Chicago 13, Detroit 14

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  • IDgotIIDgotI Posts: 262
    Boom is a pretty amazing addition to the band as far as I'm concerned, but that's because he totally knows his place. Yes he gets his chance to shine in "Crazy Mary"...but appart from that he's pretty much playing pads, chords that just provide a bed for Stone and Mike and Jeff to jump up and down on. Stuffn, sounds like you're in a band that's just taking on players for the sake of it. That can lead to really clunky results for sure. I once read a really cool interview with either Andy Summers or Stuart Copland of the Police. Whichever one of them it was said that they almost thought of silence as a fourth member in the band. They wanted there to be be space, and silence between the notes for the rhythms to bounce off of. Again, I think Boom works for Pearl Jam because they are a disciplined band that knows when to back off and be sparse... but from my personal experience, as soon as you expand beyond power trio it gets really *really* dicey unless the players are either all really good friends, or unless one of them is willing to hang back. That's part of the secret to making music that people remember, getting to a point where people are actually able to communicate and get on the same page about what works best for the song. Short of that... it's a lot of overlap and noise to be sure.
  • PJamGrunge10PJamGrunge10 Posts: 596
    All Those Yesterdays wrote:
    Really? So you don't like Deep Purple? Don't get me wrong there is always a situation where it doesn't fit. But that organ in Save You is a cool fit.

    To be honest I'm not all that familiar with them... when I mean rock songs I'm referring to songs that are mostly guitar driven such as Even Flow. Now, a band like Coldplay is also considered rock but they use pianos/keyboards in almost every song and it fits, but I wouldn't say they have any real 'rock' songs... The keyboards just tend to make everything sound poppy to me.
    Stone Gossard...riffmeister extraordinaire!

    I am a man, I am advanced.....I am the first man to borrow Stone's leather pants!
  • StuffnJunkStuffnJunk Posts: 896
    edited July 2010
    jn
    Post edited by StuffnJunk on
    "I'll tell you what: If all I had was Pearl Jam, and I didn't have another band in the world, I would not be worried. Because in there is the essence of making great music. You don't have to use it all at once, but it's there." - Neil Young
  • All Those YesterdaysAll Those Yesterdays Posts: 2,723
    PJamGrunge10 wrote:
    To be honest I'm not all that familiar with them... when I mean rock songs I'm referring to songs that are mostly guitar driven such as Even Flow. Now, a band like Coldplay is also considered rock but they use pianos/keyboards in almost every song and it fits, but I wouldn't say they have any real 'rock' songs... The keyboards just tend to make everything sound poppy to me.

    No problem bud. Might I suggest you take step back and give Deep Purple a listen. Ritchie Blackmore and the gang have something to let you experience. Check out Machine Head. It's worth at least one listen :-)
    E. Lansing-98 Columbus-00,03,10 Detroit-00,03 (1&2),06, 14 Cleveland-03,06,10 Toledo-04, Grand Rapids-04,06 London-05, Toronto-05, Indianapolis 10, East Troy (1&2) 11, Chicago 13, Detroit 14

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  • ianvomsaalianvomsaal Posts: 1,224
    Maybe think of it this way - is the overall sound better or worse with the keyboard - you need to record the practice and take listen - everything sounds different that way - what you thought sounded great may actually sound awful, or vise versa. Sometimes you think the overall tune sounded great until you go back and take a listen (and it's not) - or you think you played a killer solo - then you listen back and wonder who stole your guitar (is that me . . . man that totally sucks). All band members need to be able to hear what you sound like "as a band", and then have an open critique as to what works and what doesn't. Once you figure out if it adds or subtracts to the bands sound as a whole, then you'll need to figure out if you want to split the gig $$$ with yet another player, especially if they're not making the band sound better (just adding to the overall SPL's) - and if you're asked to play on a cramped stage - is it worth it. The best way to tell is to find out what everyone thinks - If you're not enjoying it, it deserves a discussion.
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  • lucylespianlucylespian Posts: 2,403
    IDgotI wrote:
    Boom is a pretty amazing addition to the band as far as I'm concerned, but that's because he totally knows his place. Yes he gets his chance to shine in "Crazy Mary"...but appart from that he's pretty much playing pads, chords that just provide a bed for Stone and Mike and Jeff to jump up and down on. Stuffn, sounds like you're in a band that's just taking on players for the sake of it. That can lead to really clunky results for sure. I once read a really cool interview with either Andy Summers or Stuart Copland of the Police. Whichever one of them it was said that they almost thought of silence as a fourth member in the band. They wanted there to be be space, and silence between the notes for the rhythms to bounce off of. Again, I think Boom works for Pearl Jam because they are a disciplined band that knows when to back off and be sparse... but from my personal experience, as soon as you expand beyond power trio it gets really *really* dicey unless the players are either all really good friends, or unless one of them is willing to hang back. That's part of the secret to making music that people remember, getting to a point where people are actually able to communicate and get on the same page about what works best for the song. Short of that... it's a lot of overlap and noise to be sure.

    I've really been trying to keep this in mind now I'm in a band.
    It's god advice I've read a lot, and I'm determined to not ignore it.
    Music is not a competetion.
  • AnonAnon Posts: 11,175
    StuffnJunk wrote:
    well for the type of band we are, truth be told it really would behoove us to have two guitars and keys.....the thing is i am older (31), and have finally learned to hold back and "less is more" and silence is best for parts of songs, etc.....and the other guitarist is young and absolutely CANNOT ever stop playing for one second in any song, not to mention in between songs when we are trying to talk....then just as i have finally started to get through to him to tone it down, in comes a young keyboard player and it is just a fucking explosion of noise, and now the other guitarist turns back up in an effort to be heard......so i think it could def be a good thing, even a necessity, but it needs work and it is frustrating to work with youngers guys who are still awed at hearing their amp at full blast, when i feel i have finally learned to turn down and be cooperative....but i was the loud guitarist in all the other bands i've been in , i finally matured and now i expect everyone to be quiet like me!!!

    oh, the irony...
    what is wrong with you!

    why is it so difficult for you to understand the importance of my guitar being the loudest, most badass instrument on the stage. It seems logical to me that my guitar should be seen for what it truly is... a weapon of mass destruction, laying sonic waste to all who stand before it (this includes any sounds that may be coming from the bass player, the drums or indeed any low-flying aircraft).

    and yes! i do have a look of innocent confusion on my face when the sound engineer rushes to the front of the stage and shouts instructions at me, It's not my fault he has to scream these instructions at me a number of times cause i can't hear him with my amp turned up wicked loud. Usually that's when i'll turn to the rest of the guys, and tell them to kindly shut their noiseholes and stop playing because i can't hear what the sound engineer is saying dammit!!!!!

    It's also not my fault when he checks that everyone is in the mix. Like why does he need to go through us one at a time, and how dare he start with our drummer first! does he expect me to just sit and wait my turn and not play my guitar! Seriously! I don't see why he would find it difficult to check the snare drum sound while i'm wailing to my latest SRV lick at demonic decibel levels!

    Also, someone needs to tell everyone that the people in the front row love it when their ears bleed like mofos. right?

    Hehe, well clearly i'm just messing around, i would never act like that, but oh yeah i've seen it :) and stuffnjunk i totally get what you are saying. The 'sound' of any successful band is a synergy of all the various members playing together. That's a no brainer. You've just got to convince all the other people in your band that ;)
  • All Those YesterdaysAll Those Yesterdays Posts: 2,723
    Pj_Gurl wrote:
    what is wrong with you!

    why is it so difficult for you to understand the importance of my guitar being the loudest, most badass instrument on the stage. It seems logical to me that my guitar should be seen for what it truly is... a weapon of mass destruction, laying sonic waste to all who stand before it (this includes any sounds that may be coming from the bass player, the drums or indeed any low-flying aircraft).

    and yes! i do have a look of innocent confusion on my face when the sound engineer rushes to the front of the stage and shouts instructions at me, It's not my fault he has to scream these instructions at me a number of times cause i can't hear him with my amp turned up wicked loud. Usually that's when i'll turn to the rest of the guys, and tell them to kindly shut their noiseholes and stop playing because i can't hear what the sound engineer is saying dammit!!!!!

    It's also not my fault when he checks that everyone is in the mix. Like why does he need to go through us one at a time, and how dare he start with our drummer first! does he expect me to just sit and wait my turn and not play my guitar! Seriously! I don't see why he would find it difficult to check the snare drum sound while i'm wailing to my latest SRV lick at demonic decibel levels!

    Also, someone needs to tell everyone that the people in the front row love it when their ears bleed like mofos. right?

    Hehe, well clearly i'm just messing around, i would never act like that, but oh yeah i've seen it :) and stuffnjunk i totally get what you are saying. The 'sound' of any successful band is a synergy of all the various members playing together. That's a no brainer. You've just got to convince all the other people in your band that ;)

    You should of saw the water flying out of my nose when I read this post
    E. Lansing-98 Columbus-00,03,10 Detroit-00,03 (1&2),06, 14 Cleveland-03,06,10 Toledo-04, Grand Rapids-04,06 London-05, Toronto-05, Indianapolis 10, East Troy (1&2) 11, Chicago 13, Detroit 14

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  • LoveRock333LoveRock333 Posts: 59
    StuffnJunk wrote:
    did Boom play on everything in 2003? am i right that he stayed on stage for every song, even ones like Animal that have absolutley no room for organ?

    then it seems like in 2004 on onward he is only onstage for songs that "require" organ....he is not there for every song anymore - is that right?

    i am in a cover band... we have 2 guitars, and i have been frustrated as shit trying to get the other guitarist to turn down/not play in parts of the song....just as i am getting a handle on him, the other guys bring a keyboardist down to our last practice...i HATED it, the sounds are so cheesy, all it does is add to the overall NOISE, and i HATED it (did i mention that?)

    so i wonder how someone like stone feels about Boom, can't say i've ever heard him or any of the others shower Boom with compliments in interviews....stone goes from his riffs being the centerpice of songs to one little piece of the big mush of sound they have now

    now i know why he switched from a les paul to strat - i was thinking the same thing at practice "why play this heavy ass LP when you can hardly hear me anyhow? i may as well just play my strat, for no other reason than its lighter"

    i guess its ego on my part, i'd rather be a big part of the song as opposed to just part of the mix...sue me



    The trick is to turn down the volume of the keyboard on guitar/bass heavy songs. It's really more of a backing instrument in those instances. Obviously if the song is more quiet, then turn up the keys (only if it suits the song, though). But keys sound awesome when used properly (and I don't mean just played well).

    Oh, and if your band is just making noise, well, it might not just be the keyboards fault. Just sayin'. Good luck!
    -Defender of the faithless-

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  • mca47mca47 Posts: 13,282
    I think the organ has its place. I prefer piano over organ though.
  • StuffnJunkStuffnJunk Posts: 896
    LoveRock333 wrote:
    The trick is to turn down the volume of the keyboard on guitar/bass heavy songs. It's really more of a backing instrument in those instances. Obviously if the song is more quiet, then turn up the keys (only if it suits the song, though). But keys sound awesome when used properly (and I don't mean just played well).

    Oh, and if your band is just making noise, well, it might not just be the keyboards fault. Just sayin'. Good luck!
    well our drummer plays very loud and we have been on his case about that, our young guitarist plays loud too and we've been on his case.....i bought a volume pedal for this band so my goal above all else has been to turn down and hold back.....its like for hard hitting songs it is difficult to play "hard" without turning up, i know it seems simple but i guess its easier said than done...but we're working on it, to add another instrument like keys justs seems like we are back to square one as far as dynamics, its a whole new beast to be tamed...

    yeah Ian, i tape every second of music i've ever played on a little cheap ass cassette recorder, the songs don't sound bad with the keys, and i definitely know what you mean about how things that sound good in the moment can sound like shit afterward and vice versa!!! we all agree we need keys for this band, i am just a bit hesitant, i am usually the one to disagree on everything, and we have discussed cramped stages, etc
    "I'll tell you what: If all I had was Pearl Jam, and I didn't have another band in the world, I would not be worried. Because in there is the essence of making great music. You don't have to use it all at once, but it's there." - Neil Young
  • HushBullHushBull Posts: 996
    All Those Yesterdays wrote:
    But that organ in Save You is a cool fit.

    Agreed!!!!!!!!
    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro"
  • All Those YesterdaysAll Those Yesterdays Posts: 2,723
    HushBull wrote:
    Agreed!!!!!!!!

    sweet!
    E. Lansing-98 Columbus-00,03,10 Detroit-00,03 (1&2),06, 14 Cleveland-03,06,10 Toledo-04, Grand Rapids-04,06 London-05, Toronto-05, Indianapolis 10, East Troy (1&2) 11, Chicago 13, Detroit 14

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  • Kosuke FukudomeKosuke Fukudome Posts: 197
    God. Grow up keyboard haters. If you don't like keys, you aren't a real musician as far as I'm concerned. The best rock bands have ALWAYS had organs/keys in songs. Zep, The Who, PJ, Radiohead, Beatles, etc. etc. etc.
    Horry Kow!
  • MichaelMcKevinMichaelMcKevin Posts: 1,161
    Kosuke Fukudome wrote:
    If you don't like keys, you aren't a real musician as far as I'm concerned.

    I have to agree with this in sort of a weird way. I mean it's okay to say "I don't like keys with Slipknot," but I don't think you can really say "I hate keys" and actually say you like music.

    Some of my favorite rock bands use organ and piano. Some in a classic way, some for synthesizers and unique textures. Key-instruments of any kind are always so musical.
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  • seanw1010seanw1010 Posts: 1,205
    keeponrockin wrote:
    Listen to the Black Crowes - AMAZING use of organ!
    yes!
    they call them fingers, but i never see them fing. oh, there they go
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