Ed Vedder, Paul McCartney and Jack White dont use 'circle of fifths'

dunkman

and so neither will I


fucking hell.. i only looked into them as i thought it was a "must do" but i cant make head nor tail of it at all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

i hereby give notice to not learn the fucking thing and just continue practicing in my own wee way

reaching hands

argghhhhh!!! you have just uneartherd horrible memories from studying music at college, really couldn't get into it even though, i think, i actually had it nailed at one point! :(

lucylespian

Don't sweat it, circle of fifths is just a way of working out how many sharps there is is any key. It also matches major and relative minor keys.
But really, this information is just easier to rote learn, esp on a guitar, which tells you anyhoo. Also so much stuff is in Em that even if that is the only scale set you know, which it stll is for me, you'll still be able to play nearly anything. D is a pretty common key, then, B, C# for ZZ Top, but jusst knowing a few box pattern will let you fake it most of the time.

eg start on the 12th fret and play the pentatonic box you know, ie 12, 15, 12 14, 12 14 etc, ok, so you know that's Em pentatonic.
Now play teh same pattern, only go down the neck, ie 12 9, 11 9, 11 9 etc, ok, now that is E maj pentatonic, but it also matches C#m, which is the relative minor key to Emaj, and also the key Yellow Ledbetter is in which explains the unusual neck position it is platyed in, also why it is a "happy " tune.
Incidentally, the same approach will tell you that Em is the relative minor key to G major. You can do this anywhere on the neck, using the E string to define the root of the scale. I don't know any other instrument that has a built in circle of fifths, but the way a guitar is tuned makes that possible.
That article I mentioned by Richard Lloyd explains that.

But I'm with you on playing over theory any day, though I am learning some at present with a teacher, it's helping me understand why notes are where they are in different songs, and why seemingly chromatic notes fit so well.

Another point of massive importance for me though, is that sll teh theory and scale knowledge in the world will never tell you which note to play when.
For that you need to be a gifted musician, which I am not, or rely on communication from the composer, called musical notation or tablature, almost universally despised by every music teacher and cool dude ever born.
For reasons that entirely elude me, almost all guitar teachers have a pathological aversion to peeps learning songs note for note even though that is how every other instrument is taught.

ledhed43

yea i took a music theory class in college. my teacher always said that theory is great especially when you get stuck in the writing process but there is absolutely no substitute for your ears...unless you happen to be beethoven.

lucylespian

I should also mentioned, that yes, Jack and Ed don't use the circle of fifths, but they are also lazy bastards who stick to the same key.
Ed writes everything in D, so he only needs one scale, and Jack sticks to A, except for open tunings, which are another story and even easier, cos the same patterns work regardless of the key you are in.
Can't comment on McCartney, cos I hate the Beatles and don't know what he does. I'm sure he has a circle flunkey !!

justam

Oh come on. It's not so hard to understand music theory. It's a little like math. You need to count steps and understand scales to build chords and intervals.

StuffnJunk

eddie used it for betterman, elderly woman, and long road (just off the top of my head)

ianvomsaal

You want to learn what's sharp or flat (MAJOR KEY SIGNATURES) . . .
Easy - this is basically a plug and play method that I came up with - now I teach this to my students.

Learn your evens and odds up to 7.
evens = 0,2,4,6
odds = 1,3,5,7
Fairly easy so far, right . . .
You'll need to learn these forewards and backwards: (0,2,4,6,1,3,5,7) & (7,5,3,1,6,4,2,0).
Basically your sharps or flats plug into this formula.
We should all know by now that music consists of 7 whole notes (A - B - C - D - E - F - G)
And 12 total tones including sharps or flats (A - A# - B - C - C# - D - D# - E - F - F# - G -G#).
A# is also Bb, C# is Db, D# is Eb, F# is Gb, ect, ect.
We Need To Remember, there is no B# or E#.
The last thing we need to memorize is the order of the SHARPS and FLATS.
Order of the SHARPS: (F-C-G-D-A-E-B).
The mnemonic I use is Frankenstein Can Gobble Down Any Earthly Being (don't ask, one fo the DR's at the University taught it to us).
Order of the FLATS: (B-E-A-D-G-C-F).
Another mnemonic: spell the word BEAD, followed by Greatest Common Factor.
For Sharps, memorize this scale starting on C -- (C, D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#)
For Flats, memorize this scale starting on Cb -- (Cb, Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb)

Now lets plug it in (starting on C because there's no sharps of flats in the key of C-Major).
SHARPS: C=0, D=2, E=4, F#=6, G=1, A=3, B-5, C#=7
So, C-has no sharps, D-has 2 sharps (FC), E-has 4 sharps (FCGD), F#-has 6 sharps (FCGDAE), ect, ect.
FLATS: Cb=7, Db=5, Eb=3, F=1, Gb=6, Ab=4, Bb=2
So, Cb-has 7 flats (BEADGCF), Db-has 5 flats (BEADG), Eb-has 3 flats (BEA), F(natural)-has 1 flat (B), ect, ect.
That's it . . . . . . . .
Here's the sheet I made up and hand out to my students, which might help you see it visually.
Basically the alphabet runs in order up and down from C to C# while the numbers run in the even and odd order:
click here: KEY SIGNATURES
Cheers . . .

- Ian C.T. vom Saal

Novawind

Ian, I just finished taking a Music 101 theory course. I've got a lot of the stuff you just went over (I use Fat Cats Go Down Alleys Eating Birds).

One question I have though: is there some general pattern for figuring out what chords work in a particular key. I learned about harmonic analysis so if given a piece of music I can figure out the key usually from the last chord in the piece, and from there figure out what's the I, ii, iii, IV, V etc. but off hand I would have no idea what's what. Say if you had the key of D, you would have D major, E minor, F# minor, G major, A major, B minor, and C# diminished? I don't really know the rules for that.

Also is there a good way to identify good or "smooth" key changes? Like if you were switching from one key to another in a piece of music, should you pick two keys that have a similar chord or note?

westsidepie

Novawind wrote:

Ian, I just finished taking a Music 101 theory course. I've got a lot of the stuff you just went over (I use Fat Cats Go Down Alleys Eating Birds).

One question I have though: is there some general pattern for figuring out what chords work in a particular key. I learned about harmonic analysis so if given a piece of music I can figure out the key usually from the last chord in the piece, and from there figure out what's the I, ii, iii, IV, V etc. but off hand I would have no idea what's what. Say if you had the key of D, you would have D major, E minor, F# minor, G major, A major, B minor, and C diminished? I don't really know the rules for that.

Also is there a good way to identify good or "smooth" key changes? Like if you were switching from one key to another in a piece of music, should you pick two keys that have a similar chord or note?

First, in D major, you are correct that the chord builit on the pitch C# is diminished. The general rule for chord types in a major key is the chords built on scale degrees I, IV, and V are always major. The chords built on scale degrees ii, iii, and vi are always minor, and the chord built on the 7th degree or leading tone of the scale is always diminshed. In minor, chords patterns are little more complicated due to the raised 6th and 7th scale degrees. In natural minor, the chords built on scale degrees i, iv, v are minor, while the chords built on scale degrees III, VI, and VIII are major. Raising scale degrees 6 and 7 makes IV and V major, vii diminished, and ii minor. The pattern is nearly the opposite of the major, except in minor the chord built on scale degree ii is diminshed, while in major the chords built on scale degree vii is diminished. You are correct about moving from key to another, you need to pick a common chords. This is called modulation. It is not the only way to move from one key to another, but this is how it was done in early classical music. In jazz for example and late classical music, you can also modulate using diminsihed 7th chords. To move from the key of C to G, you could use the progression I, IV, V, vi. The note of the vi chord are a, c, e, which in the key of G are the chord built on scale degree ii. Here is the whole progression: C: I, IV, V, vi--vi becomes ii in G and the progression continues G: ii-V-I.

HTH,

...pie

PS sorry for being long winded, but there really isn't a shorter way to explain this with words.

dunkman

StuffnJunk wrote:

eddie used it for betterman, elderly woman, and long road (just off the top of my head)

I'm betting Eddie thinks circle of fifths is a pagan lesbian rock band... someone said its simple maths, well i cant do simple maths but i can expand on lexicography

ianvomsaal

Novawind wrote:

Ian, I just finished taking a Music 101 theory course. I've got a lot of the stuff you just went over (I use Fat Cats Go Down Alleys Eating Birds).

One question I have though: is there some general pattern for figuring out what chords work in a particular key. I learned about harmonic analysis so if given a piece of music I can figure out the key usually from the last chord in the piece, and from there figure out what's the I, ii, iii, IV, V etc. but off hand I would have no idea what's what. Say if you had the key of D, you would have D major, E minor, F# minor, G major, A major, B minor, and C# diminished? I don't really know the rules for that.

Also is there a good way to identify good or "smooth" key changes? Like if you were switching from one key to another in a piece of music, should you pick two keys that have a similar chord or note?

I'll try to make this sound a little easier . . .
Most of the time you'll choose keys with similar chords.
I love using simple ii-V-I and I-IV-V progressions for tunes.
As far as what chords work in a particular key, you'll need to think about think about the key signature,
and lets call it a circular triad (meaning building triads around each key).
An example would be your Key of D-Major (I'll use your example as an example).
D-Major's triad is D-F#-A, but there are many other triads that you can form from D-Major's scale.
Continuing: (D-F#-A) (F#-A-C#) (A-C#-E) (C#-E-G) (E-G-B) (G-B-D) (B-D-F#) - Get it???
And remember, each of these chords can also take you in another direction (as pie said, MODULATION).
Within the D-Major scale one of the triads is A-C#-E (A-Major), so a modulation could be
triads built on the A-Major scale -- and let's not forget the relative Minor of D-Major (B-Minor).
And our coveted circle of 5th's can also help with figuring out what chords work with what.
Cheers . . .

- Ian C.T. vom Saal

Novawind

OK, I think I get it. I wrote out chords for all the major keys and they all sound pretty good together. The minors will take me a little more time.

So basically, the major chords go I ii iii IV V vi vii(dim)

Natural minor is... this? i ii(dim) III iv v VI VII

And harmonic minor is... this? i ii(dim) III iv v VI vii(dim)

And I have no idea about melodic minor.

westsidepie

Novawind wrote:

OK, I think I get it. I wrote out chords for all the major keys and they all sound pretty good together. The minors will take me a little more time.

So basically, the major chords go I ii iii IV V vi vii(dim)

Natural minor is... this? i ii(dim) III iv v VI VII

And harmonic minor is... this? i ii(dim) III iv v VI vii(dim)

And I have no idea about melodic minor.

In harmonic minor the chord built on the fifth scale degree (v) is major (V) due to the raised 7th scale degree.
Melodic minor basically has the same structure as the major scale with a minor tonic triad. Remember in the melodic minor has the raised 6th and 7th scale degrees on the way up, and lowers those scale degree when the scale descends: ascending: C D Eb F G Anatural Bnatural C, descending: C Bb Ab G F Eb D C. Neverthless, there are plenty examples that go against these rules. The context determines what happens. So, if you are using the V chord with the raised leading tone (V major), then you will probably raise scale degree six to make the chord built on the fourth scale degree major (IV). If you use the V chord with raised 7th scale degree, then you could use the diminished version of ii with the lowered 6th scale degree. Diminished ii going to V is a great sound, stable of jazz.

HTH,

...pie

Pearl Jam and toast

Music Theory is a waste of time


.

westsidepie

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

Music Theory is a waste of time


.

It is only a waste of time, if you don't want to know anything about music. As soon as you say I like this chord here, and I don't like this one, you doing music theory whether or not you realize it.

...pie (peace)

lucylespian

I'm seriously trying to read those probably quite good explanations, but it may as well be written in bloody Swahili. I understand major and minor scales, chord triads and lots of other bits of stuff, but I'm fucked if I can really get the hang of it.

Oh well, I'm sure to have a major car crash or cancer at some stage, so I'll probably have more time then.

Till then, it's just joyous anarchy to me !!!!!

dunkman

some of this thread is written in Latin Algerbra to me... i know for a fact that Paul McCartney cant read musical notation... yet he's written some of the worlds most famous songs..

Ed may have used circle of fifths for Long Road but i've read his explanation of how the song came about and he didnt use them knowingly... he used his ear for song and for melody... he'll have no idea about the circle of fifths.

and Noel Gallagher, ok by his own admission niot much of a guitar player, but the guy doesn't even know the names of chords... i have him on a documentary cd somewhere saying that he had to get Paul Weller to show him what chords were what as he had no idea.



my point is do i really need to know all this music theory and the circle of fifths etc... cant i just strum out some tunes and write my lyrics and just go by what sounds .... good?

westsidepie

dunkman wrote:

some of this thread is written in Latin Algerbra to me... i know for a fact that Paul McCartney cant read musical notation... yet he's written some of the worlds most famous songs..

Ed may have used circle of fifths for Long Road but i've read his explanation of how the song came about and he didnt use them knowingly... he used his ear for song and for melody... he'll have no idea about the circle of fifths.

and Noel Gallagher, ok by his own admission niot much of a guitar player, but the guy doesn't even know the names of chords... i have him on a documentary cd somewhere saying that he had to get Paul Weller to show him what chords were what as he had no idea.

my point is do i really need to know all this music theory and the circle of fifths etc... cant i just strum out some tunes and write my lyrics and just go by what sounds .... good?

Absolutely, you can strum out what sounds right and make good music. You use the tools that you need. If you can get by without, go for it. However, even strumming out things you like will make you realize that there is a particulary way things you like go together, and study that point is partially what music theory is all about. McCartney may not read music, but he does know a lot about how music works. Don't forget, the early Beatles worked with George Martin who was classically trained and responsible for a lot of what the Beatles learned in their studio work.

So pick up your guitar, write some lyrics, and write some music.

Good luck,

...pie

ianvomsaal

Yeah, no big deal if someone wants to strum away for self enjoyment, but if you ever go into a studio,
or need someone else to play something, it's much more difficult not knowing exactly what you're playing.
"Noel Gallagher had to get Paul Weller to show him what chords were what as he had no idea."
I'm sorry, but Noel is an idiot - what a waste of studio time, and a bit of an idiotic thing to do.
I mean how difficult is it to learn the name of the chords you play in a song that you wrote - gimme a break!
- Ian

ianvomsaal

I hate going into a studio (or a band audition), and when I ask what the chord progressions are they
go "ohh you put your fingers here like this man." Okay, not only am I looking at it backwards, but now
I have to figure out the chords for you (and for a song that I didn't write), it really shows me how
UN-SERIOUS some people are about really trying to get signed (I mean if they can't even put in the time
to figure out what they're playing). And if I dare ask what key the tune is in (ohh how stupid of me).
"Uhmmm, I don't know" is not a very good answer. So I have to figure out what key their tune is
in so I can attempt to play a melodic solo. I mean I can look at one way, which is I'm getting
paid $100 an hour to figure shit out for them (I put together a simple lead sheet for each tune
so I can basically take as long as I want - and studio time isn't cheap). But there's still a part of
me going, common guys get your act together before you come in here.
- Ian

ianvomsaal

Anyhow, playing for yourself (strummy stummy) is fine, I have no qualms about that, but if you're
bringing other people into the mix it's a bit of another story.
All I ask is for people to learn some basic shit (like what chords their playing) so their not wasting anyone’s time.
It's much quicker and easier for someone to tell me "the progression is Em Bm7 Dm Am7," than it is to show me
where they put their fingers.
And I don't want to play the chord in the same place as them anyway - it's redundant to play exactly the same thing.
- Ian

dunkman

ianvomsaal wrote:

Anyhow, playing for yourself (strummy stummy) is fine, I have no qualms about that, but if you're
bringing other people into the mix it's a bit of another story.
All I ask is for people to learn some basic shit (like what chords their playing) so their not wasting anyone’s time.
It's much quicker and easier for someone to tell me "the progression is Em Bm7 Dm Am7," than it is to show me
where they put their fingers.
And I don't want to play the chord in the same place as them anyway - it's redundant to play exactly the same thing.
- Ian

its alright amigo... i wont be bringing others into the mix

i used the Noel Gallgher thing to highlight that although he doesnt know any theory he's 'made it' and he's a songwriter... just me saying to myself that i really dont need to know this stuff.. i'm only ever playing for myself, i only want to know so much and all this circle of fifths, I II IV stuff is just never gonna sink in with me... well it might if i devoted time to it but i cant even understand the basic concept behind it, but thanks for trying Ian and others..

lucylespian

What is this "circle of filth" you speak of ?????

who's_pearljam?

dunkman wrote:

and so neither will I

Haha,,, Heineken Helen and Barry were at my house last week for a few days, and I had a few house guests last weekend, too. They all brought gifts of booze.
So my "circle of fifths" consists of a few bottles of Irish whiskey, two tequilas, and one Appleton Rum. Pretty "major"!
They'll eventually be diminished though!



Like everyone so well stated above, if you're just plinking around and playing some songs, you probably don't need to know how to read music, but if you want to go anywhere with it, it sure does help. Music theory is a tool.

You CAN build a house with your bare hands, but if you have the right tools you can move into that sucker a lot sooner!


Like the old joke says:

How do you get a guitarist to turn down his amp?

Put sheet music in front of him!

lucylespian

ACtually dunks, you do use a I-IV-V progression all the time.
Think Ball and Biscuit.

It's a blues in E, moves to a, back to A up to B. then fucks aboot int teh turnaround. Knowing that frees up teh opportunity to expreess that idea all over the place.

If ay wanna totoalyh avoid the circle of filth, go open tuning, then you don't need to know nothing except whether it sounds OK or not !!

Pearl Jam and toast

westsidepie wrote:

..you doing music theory whether or not you realize it.

Ah, but that's exactly my point!

Studying it (to me) is bollocks. Also it's boring, and music should never be boring.

surferdude

ianvomsaal wrote:

Anyhow, playing for yourself (strummy stummy) is fine, I have no qualms about that, but if you're
bringing other people into the mix it's a bit of another story.
All I ask is for people to learn some basic shit (like what chords their playing) so their not wasting anyone’s time.
It's much quicker and easier for someone to tell me "the progression is Em Bm7 Dm Am7," than it is to show me
where they put their fingers.
And I don't want to play the chord in the same place as them anyway - it's redundant to play exactly the same thing.
- Ian

I hate to admit it but you are so right here. I'm slowly working on building a song portfolio and occassionally sitting down with professional musicians and I just struggle. They talk a completely different language than I do. It makes it harder to make progress. I make progress banging it out on a guitar, they want to make progress by knowing what's happening first and going from there.

One part of me does not want to know any theory. The more theory you know the harder it is to not care about theory in the creative process. I never want to feel that this is the right chord to use after that one, especially when I'm stuck.

Regardless, I'm biting the bullet and taking lessons come the fall. Hopefully I'll have a genius teacher who can have theory make sense to me. Hell, I'll be happy knowing the names of the chords I play. Once I move out of open chords I have no idea what's going on. I seriously play chords by thinking that's a nice pattern my fingers are making, I wonder what it sounds like.

westsidepie

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

Ah, but that's exactly my point!

Studying it (to me) is bollocks. Also it's boring, and music should never be boring.

Look, it is just a matter of style. Athlethes have natural abilities for much of what they do. They even may have unconscious theories of the most effective way to throw or run or hit. After all, do you really need a theory to throw a ball? Nevertheless, in professional sports, this is exactly what coaches do. They come in and start teaching them a theory about how to be more effective in what they do by making them conscious of certain procedures. It helps to know muscles work in order to use them more effectively. Same thing for speed picking. And even if you are doing theory without realizing it, bringing it into your consciousness, just makes everything flow. I am sorry you find it boring. I don't. In fact, I find not difference between the theory and the music; same thing different scenery. I would counter you claim by saying if your music theory is boring, then your music will be equally boring.

Pearl Jam and toast

westsidepie wrote:

Look, it is just a matter of style. Athlethes have natural abilities for much of what they do. They even may have unconscious theories of the most effective way to throw or run or hit. After all, do you really need a theory to throw a ball? Nevertheless, in professional sports, this is exactly what coaches do. They come in and start teaching them a theory about how to be more effective in what they do by making them conscious of certain procedures. It helps to know muscles work in order to use them more effectively. Same thing for speed picking. And even if you are doing theory without realizing it, bringing it into your consciousness, just makes everything flow. I am sorry you find it boring. I don't. In fact, I find not difference between the theory and the music; same thing different scenery. I would counter you claim by saying if your music theory is boring, then your music will be equally boring.

It really is just a matter of style. Some people learn better by actually learning the music theory from a book or teacher,.. but personally I choose experience.

FinsburyParkCarrots

Learn the basic chords to Hey Joe, transpose them, and you're on your way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixXb6MS660E


This is a better wikipedia page to work on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_progression