I don't know how this turned into a debate of right and wrong, but I guess it is what it is.
We clearly have different views on this (I feel it’s whoring out gear, you feel it’s making a living).
Yes, "trading and exchanging gear between friends, or gifting guitars is completely different".
However, Tom is not and was not a buddy (I'd never even met the man before his purchase).
He was just so grateful that I would sell him his dream guitar without trying to capitalize on it that
he decided to remind me how thankful he is a few times a year with updates, cards, and photos of
the guitar's experiences - I don't know much else about the guy other than he doesn't have any
kids, has a Hendrix Band, and looks to me like a dead ringer for an older Jimi Hendrix (yes, he's black).
I have a wife, a 1-year old, and a mortgage - and a musicians life is a hard life, but they signed
on despite this, knowing full well that it wasn't going to be easy - but we sacrifice. My son will
get my gear when I go, and if he wants to sell everything for a ton of $$$ then so be it, but I
won't do it - my instruments are now a huge part of me - it'd be like selling one of my kidneys
or one of my arms for a profit - I just wouldn't do that without some Major thought. I don't
know, maybe it's my ethics - I feel that they're instruments to be played, not investments to
capitalize on - But I guess we can agree to disagree on this.
- Ian
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer rather just a point of view. I only raise points because you use words like "hate" or "right buyer" or "ethics" and to me that's just a condescending remark towards the plain "joes" like me who are enjoying these guitars and collecting them as well. That ain't right and even though I'm not a collector or am trying to start a small collection, it doesn't make me the "wrong buyer" or someone without ethics. And collectors don't always flip these guitars for profit (I never have). Pick up Vintage Guitar Mag sometime and look at those dealer ads. Those are the guys low-balling private collectors then flipping the guitar for 100% margin!
You're a full-time musician and feel you have some sort of "right" to own the guitars/amps you have... fine. Just don't look down on the rest of us who have the same guitars and are enjoying them. I also work for a living and value every dollar that enters my bank account. There's no crime in choosing to spend that money in vintage guitars or anything collectible whether a "real" player or someone who's a music enthusiast. And if we're lucky enough for those guitars to go up in value, then that's fine too. Collectible items are collectible otherwise the '62 strat you have or the '59 TV I have would just be stockpiled in some junkyard somewhere or wherever. We have these guitars for a reason and it ain't just because they "sound good".
I guilelessly stated my personal opinion on collectors collecting vintage gear
purely as an investment - Not because they would truly love to own these
guitars and/or amps, but more-so because they can make a profit on them.
I'm sorry you've taken it as a personal attack (I guess I must have hit a
nerve - Apologies for any perceived ill-will you feel I vented towards you).
Bringing about this discussion may have been a moot point, but my feelings
are no less valid than your own - we rationalize our feelings in our own minds. I feel they are "instruments to be played, NOTinvestments to be capitalized on".
And you feel different about it . . . and that’s completely cool.
Cheers . . .
I guilelessly stated my personal opinion on collectors collecting vintage gear
purely as an investment - Not because they would truly love to own these
guitars and/or amps, but more-so because they can make a profit on them.
I'm sorry you've taken it as a personal attack (I guess I must have hit a
nerve - Apologies for any perceived ill-will you feel I vented towards you).
Bringing about this discussion may have been a moot point, but my feelings
are no less valid than your own - we rationalize our feelings in our own minds. I feel they are "instruments to be played, NOTinvestments to be capitalized on".
And you feel different about it . . . and that’s completely cool.
Cheers . . .
- Ian
By the way - Did anyone else take what I wrote as negative towards them?
Just wondering if I offended anyone else with my opinions?
It's not so much that you offended me, more that gear socialism in general irritates me. I buy and sell what I want, and don't feel obliged to justify that to anybody.
The down-side to a capitalist system, is that things are open to abuse, which to you includes trading vintage guitars for profit.
The flip-side would be a socialist system, where you could not have the gear you want to buy because the system did not allocate it to you.
You can't have one without the other.
That is obvious.
People always get defensive when you seem to attack their freedom of choice, esp in a country where that freedom extends to carrying arms and killing poeple.
You get a bit defensive when anyone attacks your credibility too, which is fair enough.
By the way - Did anyone else take what I wrote as negative towards them?
Just wondering if I offended anyone else with my opinions?
- Ian
Everything's cool with me. I think everyone sees your point but you can't drop words like "hate", "resent", "right buyer", etc. without irking a few people. Guitars that cost 4 or more digits are what they are and that's fact. Unless these "players" or "collectors" are independently wealthy, then they do care what these guitars are worth whether they are stashed in a closet or gigged 5 nights a week. I can't afford to take a hit on anything I purchased whether vintage or custom shop. It's that simple. So if you label me as someone who is looking to make money... fine. I don't resent that rather I just rolled my eyes in thinking we have another "not worthy" post from a someone who thinks only "players" should own these guitars and in fact, probably 99% of these guys who own these guitars are "players".
The '59 TV Model I bought in early December was purchased from a private collector. He bought it from the original owner who's late husband actually played the crap out of it. She brought it to a few shops and they offered big bucks for it and when she realized it was worth a lot of money, she was open to taking offers and eventually took the one from the guy who sold it to me 9 months later. She needed the money and she made out well.... do you resent her? I've heard this story a ton of times in different versions with the same outcome.
I respect your opinion and viewpoint and I wasn't really that offended but you your tone seemed to implicate me as someone who buys and sells to make money or anyone who sells these guitars for small or large profits, for that matter. Hit the other forums (lespaulforum.com for example) and strap on that viewpoint of yours in the Vintage forum and you'll get much more of an earful (or eyeful) than you got from me (especially from those who own music shops). No harm no foul, dude... just expressing my opinion as well. Rock on! :-)
As far as owning one... don't count yourself out. I never thought I'd own a '59 TV Model (exact same model as Mike's -- TV yellow finish, tortoise shell guard) and now I do plus some other vintage gear. Just a few pieces though to keep the G.A.S (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) happy. I hope to own more one day but I'm just happy with the few pieces I have.
You should be happy with the 59 tv model, i saw your pics, wow it's stunning . I think it's so great that a 'real player' like you is in a position to collect/own an item like that.
Whilst I don't like the fact that some people buy the vintage items purely to make money without probably even appreciating the beauty or uniqueness of the guitar, i accept it's just a fact of life and it's going to happen. It happens everywhere. Look at ticket scalping, $2000 tickets to see PJ at the Vic, insane, and check out ebay at the moment, there's 31 robot guitars ranging from $12k down. Now that's just wrong. People like you and i that are musicians who never got a chance to have one (if we wanted one), and now we have to pay inflated amounts one month after release for the pleasure of one. Just because someone who never wanted to play one got one first. Jerks.
You should be happy with the 59 tv model, i saw your pics, wow it's stunning . I think it's so great that a 'real player' like you is in a position to collect/own an item like that.
Whilst I don't like the fact that some people buy the vintage items purely to make money without probably even appreciating the beauty or uniqueness of the guitar, i accept it's just a fact of life and it's going to happen. It happens everywhere. Look at ticket scalping, $2000 tickets to see PJ at the Vic, insane, and check out ebay at the moment, there's 31 robot guitars ranging from $12k down. Now that's just wrong. People like you and i that are musicians who never got a chance to have one (if we wanted one), and now we have to pay inflated amounts one month after release for the pleasure of one. Just because someone who never wanted to play one got one first. Jerks.
Thanks! The percentage of collectors who don't actually play their guitars is very very small. Most collectors play all their guitars at home, at a jam, or even at "select" shows then there are the guys who gig the crap out of their vintage gear (like Mike M.) and other working professionals because they can afford to. Most working-class people who are lucky enough to own a piece of history will play them in a safe environment and that is purely to protect the investment. No one likes to take a hit on anything valuable, period. I don't care if it's a rare Picasso painting or a '59 Burst. If you paid big bucks for it, chances are you would like to get at least what you put into it which is the best most collectors hope for... dealers, on the other hand, are a whole different ball game. They depend on these guitars to put food on the table which changes the landscape for collectors, players alike and that is the harsh reality.
Comments
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer rather just a point of view. I only raise points because you use words like "hate" or "right buyer" or "ethics" and to me that's just a condescending remark towards the plain "joes" like me who are enjoying these guitars and collecting them as well. That ain't right and even though I'm not a collector or am trying to start a small collection, it doesn't make me the "wrong buyer" or someone without ethics. And collectors don't always flip these guitars for profit (I never have). Pick up Vintage Guitar Mag sometime and look at those dealer ads. Those are the guys low-balling private collectors then flipping the guitar for 100% margin!
You're a full-time musician and feel you have some sort of "right" to own the guitars/amps you have... fine. Just don't look down on the rest of us who have the same guitars and are enjoying them. I also work for a living and value every dollar that enters my bank account. There's no crime in choosing to spend that money in vintage guitars or anything collectible whether a "real" player or someone who's a music enthusiast. And if we're lucky enough for those guitars to go up in value, then that's fine too. Collectible items are collectible otherwise the '62 strat you have or the '59 TV I have would just be stockpiled in some junkyard somewhere or wherever. We have these guitars for a reason and it ain't just because they "sound good".
purely as an investment - Not because they would truly love to own these
guitars and/or amps, but more-so because they can make a profit on them.
I'm sorry you've taken it as a personal attack (I guess I must have hit a
nerve - Apologies for any perceived ill-will you feel I vented towards you).
Bringing about this discussion may have been a moot point, but my feelings
are no less valid than your own - we rationalize our feelings in our own minds.
I feel they are "instruments to be played, NOT investments to be capitalized on".
And you feel different about it . . . and that’s completely cool.
Cheers . . .
- Ian
<b><font color="red">CONTACT ME HERE</font>: www.myspace.com/ianvomsaal</b>
♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫
Just wondering if I offended anyone else with my opinions?
- Ian
<b><font color="red">CONTACT ME HERE</font>: www.myspace.com/ianvomsaal</b>
♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫
The down-side to a capitalist system, is that things are open to abuse, which to you includes trading vintage guitars for profit.
The flip-side would be a socialist system, where you could not have the gear you want to buy because the system did not allocate it to you.
You can't have one without the other.
That is obvious.
People always get defensive when you seem to attack their freedom of choice, esp in a country where that freedom extends to carrying arms and killing poeple.
You get a bit defensive when anyone attacks your credibility too, which is fair enough.
Everything's cool with me. I think everyone sees your point but you can't drop words like "hate", "resent", "right buyer", etc. without irking a few people. Guitars that cost 4 or more digits are what they are and that's fact. Unless these "players" or "collectors" are independently wealthy, then they do care what these guitars are worth whether they are stashed in a closet or gigged 5 nights a week. I can't afford to take a hit on anything I purchased whether vintage or custom shop. It's that simple. So if you label me as someone who is looking to make money... fine. I don't resent that rather I just rolled my eyes in thinking we have another "not worthy" post from a someone who thinks only "players" should own these guitars and in fact, probably 99% of these guys who own these guitars are "players".
The '59 TV Model I bought in early December was purchased from a private collector. He bought it from the original owner who's late husband actually played the crap out of it. She brought it to a few shops and they offered big bucks for it and when she realized it was worth a lot of money, she was open to taking offers and eventually took the one from the guy who sold it to me 9 months later. She needed the money and she made out well.... do you resent her? I've heard this story a ton of times in different versions with the same outcome.
I respect your opinion and viewpoint and I wasn't really that offended but you your tone seemed to implicate me as someone who buys and sells to make money or anyone who sells these guitars for small or large profits, for that matter. Hit the other forums (lespaulforum.com for example) and strap on that viewpoint of yours in the Vintage forum and you'll get much more of an earful (or eyeful) than you got from me (especially from those who own music shops). No harm no foul, dude... just expressing my opinion as well. Rock on! :-)
<b><font color="red">CONTACT ME HERE</font>: www.myspace.com/ianvomsaal</b>
♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫
You should be happy with the 59 tv model, i saw your pics, wow it's stunning
Whilst I don't like the fact that some people buy the vintage items purely to make money without probably even appreciating the beauty or uniqueness of the guitar, i accept it's just a fact of life and it's going to happen. It happens everywhere. Look at ticket scalping, $2000 tickets to see PJ at the Vic, insane, and check out ebay at the moment, there's 31 robot guitars ranging from $12k down. Now that's just wrong. People like you and i that are musicians who never got a chance to have one (if we wanted one), and now we have to pay inflated amounts one month after release for the pleasure of one. Just because someone who never wanted to play one got one first. Jerks.
Thanks! The percentage of collectors who don't actually play their guitars is very very small. Most collectors play all their guitars at home, at a jam, or even at "select" shows then there are the guys who gig the crap out of their vintage gear (like Mike M.) and other working professionals because they can afford to. Most working-class people who are lucky enough to own a piece of history will play them in a safe environment and that is purely to protect the investment. No one likes to take a hit on anything valuable, period. I don't care if it's a rare Picasso painting or a '59 Burst. If you paid big bucks for it, chances are you would like to get at least what you put into it which is the best most collectors hope for... dealers, on the other hand, are a whole different ball game. They depend on these guitars to put food on the table which changes the landscape for collectors, players alike and that is the harsh reality.