Vintage guitars and collectors...
solsurfr
Posts: 207
ianvomsaal wrote:I don't buy gear to make $$$ on it - I sell gear because I'm not using it anymore.
I bought the '59 LP Jr. for $2.6K, sold it for $15.4K, though I wish I hadn't sold it
to that guy since he only collects (he doesn't even really play that much, or very
well). Such a waste of a nice instrument that could've made a "REAL" player happy.
Truthfully, I never thought that it played that great (but I needed that vintage
vibe for a few projects) - It had a fairly limited sound with only one pickup,
so I eventually stopped using it - I have no need for unused gear, hence why
I sold it. The case really made the deal for the guy, so I basically raped him
on the price (he paid way more than it was worth - but it serves him right for
doing that gear collector B.S.) - I'd rather sell my gear to a real guitar player,
someone that'll play it and love it because of what it is, not store it in a room.
It made me feel really bad, so I vowed to only sell to real players from now on.
Amps, yeah everything's original - I use them mostly for session work. I picked
them up a few years ago fairly cheap, now they're worth a bit, but again it
would make me sad to sell to a collector, so I won't. The Marshalls are worth
between 8-11K, but I'd rather sell to a real player (that'll use it regularly) for
half of the current value, than a B.S. collector for double what it's worth.
I hate collectors because they price real musicians out of the market for gear
that doesn't even get used. It's rare that a normal/regular guitarist will ever
be able to play (let alone ever own) an original 1959 Les Paul Std, and it makes
me really sad to know that most of those '59 LP STD's sit around un-played.
I started a new thread on this since our conversation is moving away from the joys of Christmas... haha
I hear what you're saying and it's an argument that goes way back which I'm sure you are aware of by now. My take is that vintage/collectible items such as Bursts, Martin Acoustics, pre-cbs Fenders, etc. are no different than vintage cars, rare paintings, etc. You're saying you "hate" collectors because they price out "real" players... so do you hate Jay Leno for buying 100 vintage cars and keeping them from "real" everyday drivers?
Sure... a lot of these guitars don't get played because of their inherit value in the market but the fact remains that they are rare and now valuable because the rock stars who played them in the 60's and 70's made them that way. And lets not forget that our favorite band who sponsor's this forum looks up to them and are vintage nuts themselves. I would bet Mike is on a buying spree now also being how soft the vintage market has become but then again I'm sure he doesn't have to count his pennies like the rest of us.
I'm not a full-time musician but I have played in my share of bands and have done the local circuit for years but I also love this old wood and amps. It's intoxicating to play that stuff knowing it's a piece of rock and roll history. I only have 1 vintage guitar and a couple vintage amps and cabs. The rest of my gear is custom shop stuff which is far from vintage. Just try to keep an open mind that there are "real" players out there who do collect, that's all I'm saying.
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it's a slippery slope, isn't it?
collectors can't have stuff without scorn.
bedroom players can't have stuff without scorn.
i see this a lot.
etc. etc.
i don't play professionally, i don't even gig locally any more due to the demands of family and job, yet guitars and gear are really my only vice and i truly enjoy playing and building and tinkering even though i'm not that good and am rapidly losing what skill i had.
Very slippery! The argument "player vs. collector" is a long and tired one. I see both sides of the story but it's an apples and oranges argument, imo. Gear is my vice also and I'm not nearly as good either as I was a year ago when I was a gigging a couple times a month and practicing weekly but that shouldn't prevent us from enjoying the gear that we have or want regardless if they are production, custom shop, or vintage.
Heck, I've got a buddy in NYC who's a BASSIST and collects vintage GUITARS! He must have $200K worth of vintage juniors, hamers, firebirds, strats, and tele's. Yet, I believe he barely knows the pentatonic scale! He is one that flips guitars yearly for a small profit. Me? I barely break even, if that! I'm not a dealer so my hope is to break even, IF I sell!
The only vintage guitar in my house (1952 Gibson ES-175) gets the shit played out of it.
hahaha.. very cool. Dude.. I'm just about double your age plus 2 years! As cool as this forum is, it seems to have past me by which is why I barely stop by here anymore. As a guy who jumped on the PJ bandwagon in college in early 1992, it seems the old-timer fans like me have thinned out and the new kids on the block have taken over.
Very cool you are into vintage gear at such a young age! You'll learn to appreciate it much more by the time you are my age!
Rock on.
Make sure you check out the THD univalve and Bivalve while you're shopping the TT.
about the same price as the TT's.
http://www.thdelectronics.com/product_page_main.html
the collector that doesn't play the instrument (only collects for the sake of making $$$).
I've had my share of vintage(ish) guitars/amps, but since I'm in the business of making
music for a living it irks me to see people collecting anything that they don't use.
Sure Jay Leno may have an over-abundance of cars, but drives his cars - he's fanatical
about cars, and that's fine because he appreciates what he has and uses them.
My beef is with the collector that's in just it to make $$$$, nothing more. The Collector
that store these instruments and doesn't even play them. When I stop using gear I usually
sell it (perferable to someone that will play it and love it, not because I'm looking to
make $$$ - I used it, and I'd prefer them to, because that's why it was made).
- Ian
<b><font color="red">CONTACT ME HERE</font>: www.myspace.com/ianvomsaal</b>
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...and that's why I sold my R9 brazilian. I never played it. It was dead mint and I was afraid to put a scratch on it because of the hit it might take on value. I now try to focus on players grade gear over the minty gear for that reason. I do play my gear (maybe with some extra care but I play them) and am hoping to pass my guitars and amps down to my kids one day so they can enjoy a piece of a good old american pie.
As for the collectors who don't play, yep they are out there but it's a small percentage vs. guys who do play (my guess). When you're talking about money in the 5 or 6 digit range, you'll find a lot of those wall street, wealthy baby boomer collectors. The past 10 years has been an amazing year for old wood and amps and the baby boomers (except Mike McCready!) who grew up to Page, Clapton, Peter Green, etc., realize the value that these guitars will command. The question is if their kids will care enough. The market has softened a tad so prices are coming back down (just like the real estate market has crashed). Values were doubling and even tripling over the past few years... it's hard to ignore the investment potential of old wood.
Oh.. and you "raped" that guy for $14k for your junior cuz he deserved it? That ain't exactly right either, you know and that basically puts you in the same camp as all the other collectors who've sold for a profit. And you're right... that junior is no where close to $14K in value so in hindsight... you did very well and that guy is basically stuck with it for a loooong time if he wants to break even.
Sure... Jay drives "some" of his vintage cars but he ain't driving all of them cuz he knows whats up with that restored Model T (or whatever he has) in 20 years time....
what makes me mad are collectors that buy these amazing guitars and can't play them that ONLY buy them because they have the means to do so. that would be like me going out and buying a few rare ferrarris and storing them, not because i like ferrarris, but because i can afford them, know what i'm saying??
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I wasn't playing it, and figured I'd sell it so I could buy something I would play.
I certainly wasn't in a rush to sell it. I posted it locally with the price listed as
negotiable - he called me that same afternoon. When he came over and I found
out he was a local collector I basically told him that I wasn’t entirely sure I wanted
to sell it. Then I threw out a super inflated price hoping he'd go away (I was willing
to sit on it until I found the "right buyer"). He shrugged and left, and I thought good
riddance, ehh hopefully I'll get some more calls. I did, but they just wanted to trade
me gear that I wasn't really that interested in. The next day there's a knock at
my door. When I opened it the collector from before asks me if I still have the guitar.
When I say yes he hands me a large envelop with $15+K in cash . . . he leaves
with the guitar and I'm left dumbfounded. Turns out when he saw that it was all
original he was willing to jump the empire state building to acquire it, but he didn't
want me to know - If I had I would have asked for even more to get rid of him.
What's funny is that I've seen my guitar for sale several times since (a couple
times for more, once for about the same, and once for slightly less).
<b><font color="red">CONTACT ME HERE</font>: www.myspace.com/ianvomsaal</b>
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Yes, I know what your saying and it irks me just a little that this happens as well but really vintage collectible items whether cars, paintings, guitars, violins, world war II era Martins, they all are looked at as "investments". I know guys who buy property in Florida hoping it will double in 6 months... never lived there, stayed there, or even like it there. They are looking at safe ways to invest money and earn a profit back and for some it works well and for others it doesn't. It's the same story with vintage guitars. Guys are looking at other alternatives to invest and hopefully earn a return in whatever time period. The guys who bought in the 80's and 90's are probably the smartest collectors because they had the foresight to see the investment potential. And a lot of these guys aren't the richy rich independently wealthy who go out blind and buy the first Burst they see. Most of them are knowledgeable musicians who know the history behind these guitars down to the codes on the pots, the right color bleeding on the binding, and the smell of the wood. In fact, the big big money collectors bring a blue light with them to make sure there isn't any part that isn't suppose to be there. It's really a passion for guitars and appreciation for music. Yes, there are guys who buy 5 ferrari's because "they can" but try not to generalize that those are the same guys buying really cool vintage guitars because it's simply not even close.
The "right buyer" was the guy who handed you $15K in cash. Everyone has a price and apparently you did too, bro. If it was 100% original and clean like you said, then there is no crime involved here. That guitar will probably get in the $15-20K range in 10 or so years, if kept clean and original. If it was misrepresented in anyway (refret, repro tuners, whatever) then that guy got severely screwed and you should be ashamed of yourself! I know that's not the case so it looks like he'll be OK. We can agree to disagree on this... but your Junior, my TV Model, our amps... are a piece of American history and are rare... period. They are going to go up in value no matter how you look at it and you can try to sell it to the "right buyer" all day but my guess if that same guy came around and offered you $15K for your Plexi and the "right buyer" offered you $7500 for it... guess who's going home with the Plexi??? If you say the "right buyer" aka "player" then you're straight out lying Bro or you just don't need the money... :-)
JEFF HARDY AND JEFF AMENT USED TO LOOK THE SAME
"Pearl Jam always eases my mind and fires me up at the same time.”-Jeff Hardy
Do you really really need a vintage instrument for gigs? Is it the instrument or the player you would rather hear? Look at Mccready when he played RITFW at lolla. He had a strat that i'd never seen before, that was clearly going to end up in pieces by the end of the song, until the stage got so full of people i'm guessing that idea got squashed. His tone was still wicked awesome and he rocked everyones socks off.
For me the collectors gear is just eye candy, i'll probably never own any, sure i think they are purdy to look at and i love checking them out and i can appreciate their beauty, but i'm happy with the sound i get with what i have.
That's a loaded question and everyone will have their take on it. A 1960 Stratocaster was handmade, pups were wired by hand, and there was much more TLA for guitars made during that period. Plus, wood gets harder as it ages so sound resonates and booms acoustically. The paint was much thinner, the neck is worn, and typically these guitars are much lighter than any production guitar made by a machine. If you did an a/b test on a vintage strat vs. a production MIA strat, acoustically you WIL hear a difference. The question is if that difference is worth $20K entry fee to you. First and foremost, any guitar in those price ranges are investments first, originality 2nd, and sound 3rd... as crappy as that sounds... that is the cold hard truth.
I've played a bunch of vintage guitars from going to guitar shows over the years... the feel, vibe, and sound don't even compare to the stuff made today. Not saying a MIA or MIM or Squier strat/tele don't sound good.... they surely can but with the total package in mind... they're not close in my opinion.
My first strat was a Squier and it was great. The input jack was re-soldered an hour before one of my first gigs in 2001. It did OK thru a 3hr gig. Sound was decent but I needed something a bit more road-worthy.
Also... have you played a Custom Shop stratocaster or vintage Strat? I'd highly recommend it. If you get a chance, bring that Squier with you to compare. It "should" be quite an eye opener for you.
Yep... the road warrior musicians doing local circuits, etc., will probably not make enough to warrant a $9K guitar and that truely sucks. I've played a ton of dive bars, driven 4 hours roundtrip for gigs that paid enough to cover gas money and strings! It's a rough business and being in a band is truely like a 3rd world country... the majority are just scraping by, borderline poor, and the upper class are bands like Pearl Jam. The middle class are the smallest bunch making enough to pay the bills... truely a crime.
As far as owning one... don't count yourself out. I never thought I'd own a '59 TV Model (exact same model as Mike's -- TV yellow finish, tortoise shell guard) and now I do plus some other vintage gear. Just a few pieces though to keep the G.A.S (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) happy. I hope to own more one day but I'm just happy with the few pieces I have.
And yes, I would take my vintage gear out to select gigs... I wouldn't even hesitate.
Everyone likes money, but I'm fairly young, and for some reason my conscience usually weighs out in the end.
POINT: I sold one of my Fender Strats last year to a guy named Tom that was really into Hendrix.
He'd been wanting to get a white '68 Strat forever, and I just knew he was the "right" guy in my mind.
I'd been offered almost $20k earlier that year, but just wasn't ready to sell (still have that guys card).
Then I came across Tom, and he just felt right - I sold it to him for $8.5k, and felt good about it.
It's not that I don't need the $$$, we currently REALLY need the money (we collaboratively make
18K a year after taxes), but I made back what I paid, so I'm fine with it. I know that Tom will keep
the guitar forever, and he uses it every weekend with his Hendrix band. I'll get offered deals again,
I only hope that when I do I'll have the big $$$ it's gonna take to afford them. As for this question - YES, and NO - they sound better (that's undeniable), but you can get the same feel and vibe
from a newer one (just take a look at some of the Relic and VOS Custom Shop stuff, these guitars are fine). I wouldn't
pay $15k for a Fender Stratocaster nowadays, and I've had the opportunity (but I'm a guitar player, not a collector).
- Ian
<b><font color="red">CONTACT ME HERE</font>: www.myspace.com/ianvomsaal</b>
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not trying to be a dick or anything, but i really doubt that
I'm a player and collector. And most vintage guitar nuts are players. The non-players that buy vintage stuff are a small percentage. If you don't believe me... check out the Les Paul Forum and go to the Vintage Les Paul forum and also the fenderforum.com under Strats or Tele's.
Yes... relics, historic custom shop (historic makeover especially and Murphy-aged) are excellent examples of re-issue guitars with vintage vibe. I've owned probably close to 15 of those over the past 5 or 6 years. They are awesome guitars and my main players. However, they do not hold nearly the same value as vintage guitars over time but that's not my reason to own them either.
You're young? I'll guess you're in your early 20's or late teens. If so, by the time you're my old age, I would think you won't take a such a hard line on vintage guitars and I'm positive you won't sell a pre-cbs strat for $7500 because "it's the right thing to do"... that same "player" you sought out will probably (as a matter of fact, I'll bet) turn around and sell it for a profit for it's true market value...
You've owned and still own some cool vintage gear at your young age which (i hate to break the news to you) makes you a collector as well. If you're really hard up and need the money... you wouldn't even look once at those vintage strats or juniors. You can achieve the same in tone and feel with the modern gear that's out there today.
For some ear candy... here's my old Fender Custom Shop Strat and a Mojave Plexi 45 (JTM 45 clone) doing it's thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnZpIhCwtBk
That's funny . . . I guess you haven't read my profile on here.
I use all the gear that I own - I'm a session player (I'm not a collector, it's my job).
Unfortunately the past few years haven't been very good to those of us in my line
of work (most of us have side jobs so we can sort of make ends meet).
I've worked with tons of people, and they all want a different vibe or feel, thus
you need a different guitar or amp to suit their needs (this industry seems to require it).
I've even had to rent gear that I don't own because the client/artist requests a certain
guitar or amp (and NOW most are usually too expensive for me to buy) - thankfully I'm
sometimes able to get them to pay for the rental so I didn't have to eat the expense
(but sometimes I do, and in that case I generally don't make any money).
And I've had to eat it a few times so I could get work later on (which sucks,
but it's the business). As I've said "IT'S A SANGUINARY PROFESSION".
Here's a link to my profile on here
Here's a link to my background, history, etc
And no, Tom will never sell that Stratocaster I sold him - he just loves it to much to sell it.
We still chat a few times a year (I get Christmas cards from him). Tom is 55 years old and
he uses the Strat every week with his Hendrix band. As I said, he was the right guy in my
mind. When he's finally not able to play anymore he may just end up just selling it back to
me. I'll continue to "do the right thing" whenever I can - these are just instruments.
You've heard the story where Joe Walsh GAVE Jimmy Page his Les Paul Standard - I was an
acquaintance of Joe Walsh, and I don't know if the story is true, but it just sounds like
something that Joe'd do - and I'm fairly sure Jimmy would have done the same for Joe.
I guess it's just a different way of thinking.
Cheers . . .
- Ian
<b><font color="red">CONTACT ME HERE</font>: www.myspace.com/ianvomsaal</b>
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In either case, Waksh was known for his enthusiasm for LP's and his inclination to encourage other muso's to use them.
On thread, the biggest burst collector of all, Dirk Ziff, as well as being a billionaire, is also an enthusiast and an adept player who has recorded with some well known artists, has about 120 bursts ion his collection, kept in special rooms under environmental control. He recently added another to his collection. I don't know what other guitars he has, but almost certainly a bunch of other stuff.
Some people might regard this as selfish and denying other people the chance to own them, but he started collecting well before it was trendy and who knows how many guitars he has saved from damage of destruction.
His collection is a precious museum, and at some stage those guitars will caome back ont the market.
Meanwhile, he is preserving things which otherwise may have been lost.
I personally know someone who threw an original 1957 goldtop LP off his neck and smashed it on the dancefloor cos he was pissed off with the weight, and was young and foolish at the time. It was the early 70's and he didn't care.
There may be a few non-enthusiast investor collectors out there, but I think they aare very much in the minority and most are guitar nuts who view old gits like art, worth pursuing and preserving.
+1 well said.
Trading and exchanging gear between friends or gifting guitars is completely different than what we're talking about. If Tom is your buddy and you guys talk than sure, you'll cut him a break and make it a fair deal for the both of you. You use all your gear because you have to. Well that's you. I don't make a living with music. I would love to someday and always dream about it but I wouldn't be able to feed my wife and two kids or pay my mortgage. It is a hard way of life and like I said before, there's barely a middle class in the music world ... it's either poor or rich which is the harsh reality. Couple that with very rare, vintage, collectible guitars and it should be no surprise why more and more people can't afford these guitars. It has nothing to do with "real" players. If it's rare and collectible, it'll go up in value like a good stock, piece of real estate, or whatever.
Good for you that you want to sell to only "players". That means you are taking the dealers out of the equation (who make a living in music as you do) and of course, the non-player collectors (who are a very small minority). Not a big deal but chances are, if you are selling a 5 digit guitar... that person will be a player and enthusiast. Not a wealthy, non-player.
"These are just instruments"... is a true statement... if you're Mike McCready, Jimmy Page, Joe Perry, Joe Walsh... outside of the rich, these instruments hold a certain value to the rest of us working stiffs and most people don't have disposable income to blow these highly collectible guitars off to the next person because its wood and wires.
For me, instead doing the usual buy/sell stock... I bought a vintage a guitar because I can enjoy it and hopefully help pay my kids college with it one day or pass it down for them and their kids to enjoy.... ain't nothing wrong that at all.
We clearly have different views on this (I feel it’s whoring out gear, you feel it’s making a living).
Yes, "trading and exchanging gear between friends, or gifting guitars is completely different".
However, Tom is not and was not a buddy (I'd never even met the man before his purchase).
He was just so grateful that I would sell him his dream guitar without trying to capitalize on it that
he decided to remind me how thankful he is a few times a year with updates, cards, and photos of
the guitar's experiences - I don't know much else about the guy other than he doesn't have any
kids, has a Hendrix Band, and looks to me like a dead ringer for an older Jimi Hendrix (yes, he's black).
I have a wife, a 1-year old, and a mortgage - and a musicians life is a hard life, but they signed
on despite this, knowing full well that it wasn't going to be easy - but we sacrifice. My son will
get my gear when I go, and if he wants to sell everything for a ton of $$$ then so be it, but I
won't do it - my instruments are now a huge part of me - it'd be like selling one of my kidneys
or one of my arms for a profit - I just wouldn't do that without some Major thought. I don't
know, maybe it's my ethics - I feel that they're instruments to be played, not investments to
capitalize on - But I guess we can agree to disagree on this.
- Ian
<b><font color="red">CONTACT ME HERE</font>: www.myspace.com/ianvomsaal</b>
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