#47 - Musk/trump/Vance

Kat · February 3

timeout time is nearing........

https://community.pearljam.com/discussion/306643/talk-about-each-other-here#latest

Merkin Baller · February 3

I know there's lots to be happy about today what with so many libs being owned, but I feel like Elon & company getting access to the federal payment system on Friday is bad for everyone.

The Juggler · February 3

The problem with all of this is the reasoning for the tariffs were bullshit to begin with. He talked about fentanyl coming in from Canada...which is not really a huge issue to begin with. And then with Mexico....as we all know he actually does not care about the border issue as he killed the first meaningful bipartisan immigration bill we've had in decades last year. And since Biden's EO, border crossings have come down dramatically.

It's manufactured drama yet again.

https://www.npr.org/2025/02/02/nx-s1-5283957/fentanyl-trump-tariffs-china-canada-mexico

DE4173 · February 3

The Juggler · February 3

DE4173 said:

Get_Right · February 3

tbergs said:

Get_Right said:

Anyone who knows anything about tariffs knows that these were veiled threats to instigate some response from the named countries. If Mexico actually does anything to increase border security then I guess it could be called a success. I expect a similar response from Canada. If these tariff threats actually get Canada and Mexico to allocate resources to border security, I guess that is a good thing, even if it comes with political bravado. It is a tricky discussion. The real question is what will he do about China. That is where a real trade war could take place.

Sorry, this is a terrible take away. What normally happens is the president and his team schedule a call/meeting with said country to discuss things, especially when they're currently your damn ally and trade partner. What Trump is trying to do, and has apparently succeeded in this case based on your response, is make it look like he forced Mexico and Canada to do something they were refusing so he had no choice. That is not the case. Under a normal presidency, these deals are announced after behind the scenes negotiations where both sides make concessions, but these clowns aren't normal so we get a reality TV situation instead. It's childish, immature and inefficient, which pretty much sums up his leadership style and explains why he has bankrupted so many business ventures.

Right because the traditional paths always lead to a bilateral understanding with equal investment in a quick and efficient matter. They do not. As I said it is a tricky discussion. And anyone who thinks that the Chinese are not taking advantage of the relaxed import/export rules with Canada are being naive. It is much easier to get things into the US from Canada than it is from Mexico. That is just a fact. And they have been exploiting the de minimis import rules since 2018. This is not reality TV, this is reality. Nothing gets accomplished through traditional political processes and Trump is pushing the boundaries of Presidential power instead of the traditional handshaking and photo opps, which more like reality TV than what is happening.

mrussel1 · February 3

Get_Right said:

Anyone who knows anything about tariffs knows that these were veiled threats to instigate some response from the named countries. If Mexico actually does anything to increase border security then I guess it could be called a success. I expect a similar response from Canada. If these tariff threats actually get Canada and Mexico to allocate resources to border security, I guess that is a good thing, even if it comes with political bravado. It is a tricky discussion. The real question is what will he do about China. That is where a real trade war could take place.

So you don't think the trade ministers in Canada and Mexico or the Wall Street traders know anything about tariffs?

Get_Right · February 3

mrussel1 said:

Get_Right said:

Anyone who knows anything about tariffs knows that these were veiled threats to instigate some response from the named countries. If Mexico actually does anything to increase border security then I guess it could be called a success. I expect a similar response from Canada. If these tariff threats actually get Canada and Mexico to allocate resources to border security, I guess that is a good thing, even if it comes with political bravado. It is a tricky discussion. The real question is what will he do about China. That is where a real trade war could take place.

So you don't think the trade ministers in Canada and Mexico or the Wall Street traders know anything about tariffs?

I cannot speak to Wall Street, that is outside my expertise. Of course the trade ministers in Canada and Mexico know about tariffs. I suspect they anticipated a soft approach from the US, even with Trump as President. I suspect the same is true for the multinational companies that conduct business in Canada, but especially Mexico. Perhaps the lobby from those multinationals also had something to do with the 30 day delay, pushing on both Mexico and the US.

Halifax2TheMax · February 3

tbergs said:

Get_Right said:

Anyone who knows anything about tariffs knows that these were veiled threats to instigate some response from the named countries. If Mexico actually does anything to increase border security then I guess it could be called a success. I expect a similar response from Canada. If these tariff threats actually get Canada and Mexico to allocate resources to border security, I guess that is a good thing, even if it comes with political bravado. It is a tricky discussion. The real question is what will he do about China. That is where a real trade war could take place.

Sorry, this is a terrible take away. What normally happens is the president and his team schedule a call/meeting with said country to discuss things, especially when they're currently your damn ally and trade partner. What Trump is trying to do, and has apparently succeeded in this case based on your response, is make it look like he forced Mexico and Canada to do something they were refusing so he had no choice. That is not the case. Under a normal presidency, these deals are announced after behind the scenes negotiations where both sides make concessions, but these clowns aren't normal so we get a reality TV situation instead. It's childish, immature and inefficient, which pretty much sums up his leadership style and explains why he has bankrupted so many business ventures.

And it erodes trust. Who the fuck in their right mind would trust the US? Don’t share intelligence with the US, it might end up in a bathroom in Mar-I-Lieo. Treaties? Fuck that, they’re meant to be broken. Trust a POTUS who spews 8+ falsities a day? C’mon, man! COOTWH is successfully pointing other countries toward Chiiiiiiiina and Putin on the ritz. The UK and EU will be less likely to partner with ‘Murica with the idiot in chief in charge.

battle1 · February 3

Tim Simmons said:

Guys, its important to remember Battle doesn't like Donald Trump at all. But he also hates liberals more.

Thank you, Tim Simmons. But one minor correction- I hate them both equally. Trump and radical liberals, that is.

HughFreakingDillon · February 3

there no radical liberals here.

tbergs · February 3

Get_Right said:

tbergs said:

Get_Right said:

Anyone who knows anything about tariffs knows that these were veiled threats to instigate some response from the named countries. If Mexico actually does anything to increase border security then I guess it could be called a success. I expect a similar response from Canada. If these tariff threats actually get Canada and Mexico to allocate resources to border security, I guess that is a good thing, even if it comes with political bravado. It is a tricky discussion. The real question is what will he do about China. That is where a real trade war could take place.

Sorry, this is a terrible take away. What normally happens is the president and his team schedule a call/meeting with said country to discuss things, especially when they're currently your damn ally and trade partner. What Trump is trying to do, and has apparently succeeded in this case based on your response, is make it look like he forced Mexico and Canada to do something they were refusing so he had no choice. That is not the case. Under a normal presidency, these deals are announced after behind the scenes negotiations where both sides make concessions, but these clowns aren't normal so we get a reality TV situation instead. It's childish, immature and inefficient, which pretty much sums up his leadership style and explains why he has bankrupted so many business ventures.

Right because the traditional paths always lead to a bilateral understanding with equal investment in a quick and efficient matter. They do not. As I said it is a tricky discussion. And anyone who thinks that the Chinese are not taking advantage of the relaxed import/export rules with Canada are being naive. It is much easier to get things into the US from Canada than it is from Mexico. That is just a fact. And they have been exploiting the de minimis import rules since 2018. This is not reality TV, this is reality. Nothing gets accomplished through traditional political processes and Trump is pushing the boundaries of Presidential power instead of the traditional handshaking and photo opps, which more like reality TV than what is happening.

I am not saying the traditional path always leads to a bilateral understanding, but neither did this. Is that what this really even is? Yeah, photo ops are BS unless they are after actual policy/agreement initiative, but so are soundbytes and hostile social media posts by the POTUS. What do you think happened after Canada and Mexico announced their retaliatory tariffs, that they then came crawling to Donnie to beg him to rescind them? No way. Again, whether you want to agree with the traditional method doesn't mean this method is effective or the path forward. The US is just lucky there isn't a Trump type leader in our neighboring countries because a pissing war hurts those of us down here in the trough.

As for China, I don't have an issue with us being more forceful. There does need to be a plan on how to curtail them from being the leader in everything, but the US stepping aside and being isolationist is not the solution. Any where the US backs off on the world level, China will happily step in and fill that void.

The Juggler · February 3

Halifax2TheMax said:

tbergs said:

Get_Right said:

Anyone who knows anything about tariffs knows that these were veiled threats to instigate some response from the named countries. If Mexico actually does anything to increase border security then I guess it could be called a success. I expect a similar response from Canada. If these tariff threats actually get Canada and Mexico to allocate resources to border security, I guess that is a good thing, even if it comes with political bravado. It is a tricky discussion. The real question is what will he do about China. That is where a real trade war could take place.

Sorry, this is a terrible take away. What normally happens is the president and his team schedule a call/meeting with said country to discuss things, especially when they're currently your damn ally and trade partner. What Trump is trying to do, and has apparently succeeded in this case based on your response, is make it look like he forced Mexico and Canada to do something they were refusing so he had no choice. That is not the case. Under a normal presidency, these deals are announced after behind the scenes negotiations where both sides make concessions, but these clowns aren't normal so we get a reality TV situation instead. It's childish, immature and inefficient, which pretty much sums up his leadership style and explains why he has bankrupted so many business ventures.

And it erodes trust. Who the fuck in their right mind would trust the US? Don’t share intelligence with the US, it might end up in a bathroom in Mar-I-Lieo. Treaties? Fuck that, they’re meant to be broken. Trust a POTUS who spews 8+ falsities a day? C’mon, man! COOTWH is successfully pointing other countries toward Chiiiiiiiina and Putin on the ritz. The UK and EU will be less likely to partner with ‘Murica with the idiot in chief in charge.

Yeah. More specifically, I believe these tariffs violate the USMCA, which Trump himself put into place during his first term.

battle1 · February 3

HughFreakingDillon said:

there no radical liberals here.

Gern Blansten · February 3

christ....trump is repeating the bullshit about Doge finding where we paid millions of dollars for "condoms for Hamas"...

Get_Right · February 3

The Juggler said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

tbergs said:

Get_Right said:

Anyone who knows anything about tariffs knows that these were veiled threats to instigate some response from the named countries. If Mexico actually does anything to increase border security then I guess it could be called a success. I expect a similar response from Canada. If these tariff threats actually get Canada and Mexico to allocate resources to border security, I guess that is a good thing, even if it comes with political bravado. It is a tricky discussion. The real question is what will he do about China. That is where a real trade war could take place.

Sorry, this is a terrible take away. What normally happens is the president and his team schedule a call/meeting with said country to discuss things, especially when they're currently your damn ally and trade partner. What Trump is trying to do, and has apparently succeeded in this case based on your response, is make it look like he forced Mexico and Canada to do something they were refusing so he had no choice. That is not the case. Under a normal presidency, these deals are announced after behind the scenes negotiations where both sides make concessions, but these clowns aren't normal so we get a reality TV situation instead. It's childish, immature and inefficient, which pretty much sums up his leadership style and explains why he has bankrupted so many business ventures.

And it erodes trust. Who the fuck in their right mind would trust the US? Don’t share intelligence with the US, it might end up in a bathroom in Mar-I-Lieo. Treaties? Fuck that, they’re meant to be broken. Trust a POTUS who spews 8+ falsities a day? C’mon, man! COOTWH is successfully pointing other countries toward Chiiiiiiiina and Putin on the ritz. The UK and EU will be less likely to partner with ‘Murica with the idiot in chief in charge.

Yeah. More specifically, I believe these tariffs violate the USMCA, which Trump himself put into place during his first term.

There are loopholes in the USMCA that allow the signatories to deviate or even withdraw.

Get_Right · February 3

tbergs said:

Get_Right said:

tbergs said:

Get_Right said:

Anyone who knows anything about tariffs knows that these were veiled threats to instigate some response from the named countries. If Mexico actually does anything to increase border security then I guess it could be called a success. I expect a similar response from Canada. If these tariff threats actually get Canada and Mexico to allocate resources to border security, I guess that is a good thing, even if it comes with political bravado. It is a tricky discussion. The real question is what will he do about China. That is where a real trade war could take place.

Sorry, this is a terrible take away. What normally happens is the president and his team schedule a call/meeting with said country to discuss things, especially when they're currently your damn ally and trade partner. What Trump is trying to do, and has apparently succeeded in this case based on your response, is make it look like he forced Mexico and Canada to do something they were refusing so he had no choice. That is not the case. Under a normal presidency, these deals are announced after behind the scenes negotiations where both sides make concessions, but these clowns aren't normal so we get a reality TV situation instead. It's childish, immature and inefficient, which pretty much sums up his leadership style and explains why he has bankrupted so many business ventures.

Right because the traditional paths always lead to a bilateral understanding with equal investment in a quick and efficient matter. They do not. As I said it is a tricky discussion. And anyone who thinks that the Chinese are not taking advantage of the relaxed import/export rules with Canada are being naive. It is much easier to get things into the US from Canada than it is from Mexico. That is just a fact. And they have been exploiting the de minimis import rules since 2018. This is not reality TV, this is reality. Nothing gets accomplished through traditional political processes and Trump is pushing the boundaries of Presidential power instead of the traditional handshaking and photo opps, which more like reality TV than what is happening.

I am not saying the traditional path always leads to a bilateral understanding, but neither did this. Is that what this really even is? Yeah, photo ops are BS unless they are after actual policy/agreement initiative, but so are soundbytes and hostile social media posts by the POTUS. What do you think happened after Canada and Mexico announced their retaliatory tariffs, that they then came crawling to Donnie to beg him to rescind them? No way. Again, whether you want to agree with the traditional method doesn't mean this method is effective or the path forward. The US is just lucky there isn't a Trump type leader in our neighboring countries because a pissing war hurts those of us down here in the trough.

As for China, I don't have an issue with us being more forceful. There does need to be a plan on how to curtail them from being the leader in everything, but the US stepping aside and being isolationist is not the solution. Any where the US backs off on the world level, China will happily step in and fill that void.

I actually think the multinationals, and the related Mexican operators, put pressure on Mexico to do something and avoid the tariffs. Not sure the same leverage exists in Canada. Yes, Trump is loud and obnoxious and he says some stupid exaggerated things. And like I said, the efficacy of these actions remain to be seen (even though I know he will take credit anyway). But I do think it is a bold move for a President to try and find a way to implement his policy without waiting around for the traditional process to take its course. These actions would not likely withstand judicial scrutiny, but I am in wait and see mode to see just how effective this approach is. His 301 tariffs against China in 2018 have withstood judicial scrutiny (even though it might go to the Supreme Court). I guess my takeaway is that he is bucking the establishment and it is interesting (at least to me) to see how that plays out.

mrussel1 · February 3

Get_Right said:

mrussel1 said:

Get_Right said:

Anyone who knows anything about tariffs knows that these were veiled threats to instigate some response from the named countries. If Mexico actually does anything to increase border security then I guess it could be called a success. I expect a similar response from Canada. If these tariff threats actually get Canada and Mexico to allocate resources to border security, I guess that is a good thing, even if it comes with political bravado. It is a tricky discussion. The real question is what will he do about China. That is where a real trade war could take place.

So you don't think the trade ministers in Canada and Mexico or the Wall Street traders know anything about tariffs?

I cannot speak to Wall Street, that is outside my expertise. Of course the trade ministers in Canada and Mexico know about tariffs. I suspect they anticipated a soft approach from the US, even with Trump as President. I suspect the same is true for the multinational companies that conduct business in Canada, but especially Mexico. Perhaps the lobby from those multinationals also had something to do with the 30 day delay, pushing on both Mexico and the US.

Now I'm confused. If the trade ministers understand tariffs, why did they react so strongly yesterday and publicly? Why did they counter-threat if they knew they were veiled threats? Is everyone performative?

Get_Right · February 3

mrussel1 said:

Get_Right said:

mrussel1 said:

Get_Right said:

Anyone who knows anything about tariffs knows that these were veiled threats to instigate some response from the named countries. If Mexico actually does anything to increase border security then I guess it could be called a success. I expect a similar response from Canada. If these tariff threats actually get Canada and Mexico to allocate resources to border security, I guess that is a good thing, even if it comes with political bravado. It is a tricky discussion. The real question is what will he do about China. That is where a real trade war could take place.

So you don't think the trade ministers in Canada and Mexico or the Wall Street traders know anything about tariffs?

I cannot speak to Wall Street, that is outside my expertise. Of course the trade ministers in Canada and Mexico know about tariffs. I suspect they anticipated a soft approach from the US, even with Trump as President. I suspect the same is true for the multinational companies that conduct business in Canada, but especially Mexico. Perhaps the lobby from those multinationals also had something to do with the 30 day delay, pushing on both Mexico and the US.

Now I'm confused. If the trade ministers understand tariffs, why did they react so strongly yesterday and publicly? Why did they counter-threat if they knew they were veiled threats? Is everyone performative?

You did not ask me if the trade ministers knew these were veiled threats, you asked if they understood tariffs. And yes, there are performative actions on all sides. Trade ministers may not understand the authority given a US President under the Emergency Powers Act. I am sure they all asked the same question, "can he really do this without an act of Congress?"

mrussel1 · February 3

Get_Right said:

mrussel1 said:

Get_Right said:

mrussel1 said:

Get_Right said:

Anyone who knows anything about tariffs knows that these were veiled threats to instigate some response from the named countries. If Mexico actually does anything to increase border security then I guess it could be called a success. I expect a similar response from Canada. If these tariff threats actually get Canada and Mexico to allocate resources to border security, I guess that is a good thing, even if it comes with political bravado. It is a tricky discussion. The real question is what will he do about China. That is where a real trade war could take place.

So you don't think the trade ministers in Canada and Mexico or the Wall Street traders know anything about tariffs?

I cannot speak to Wall Street, that is outside my expertise. Of course the trade ministers in Canada and Mexico know about tariffs. I suspect they anticipated a soft approach from the US, even with Trump as President. I suspect the same is true for the multinational companies that conduct business in Canada, but especially Mexico. Perhaps the lobby from those multinationals also had something to do with the 30 day delay, pushing on both Mexico and the US.

Now I'm confused. If the trade ministers understand tariffs, why did they react so strongly yesterday and publicly? Why did they counter-threat if they knew they were veiled threats? Is everyone performative?

You did not ask me if the trade ministers knew these were veiled threats, you asked if they understood tariffs. And yes, there are performative actions on all sides. Trade ministers may not understand the authority given a US President under the Emergency Powers Act. I am sure they all asked the same question, "can he really do this without an act of Congress?"

You said if anyone didn't know they were veiled threats, they know nothing about tariffs. The trade ministers were obviously taking them seriously, therefore you mustn't think they know anything about tariffs.

Second, if they really wondered if he could do it (as if they don't have access to the Powers Act and somehow don't have access to the internets), why would they have reacted the way they did yesterday? It seems clear that they believed he had the power to do it.

Third if Trump actually leveraged one of his biggest non-military sticks to secure a concession for 10,000 troops at the border, then he's even dumber than I thought. He could have negotiated for that easily in private. That's why I don't think, nor ever would think, that border security is the reason for the tariff threat. There is something much bigger afoot. Not even he is that stupid.

#47 - Musk/trump/Vance

Comments

Categories