Transgendered/Trans-Identifying Athletes

Gern Blansten

curmudgeoness said:

I think it also would help to inject facts into the conversation. I'm currently a registered voter in a deep red state (we move a lot), where a big fuss is being made about trans athletes participating in school sports, instituting bathroom bans in government buildings, etc. If I recall correctly, someone looked into how many students would be affected by the ban on transgender athletes' participation in girls' school sports, and the answer was: four. A big to-do was being made about keeping "our girls" safe from the "trans threat," and this epidemic of wokeness actually consisted of four young trans people.

The rights of those four young people matter! But they don't constitute a threat or a wave or a trend. They are four people. There must be more humane ways to address the issue.

With regard to the "Larry Nasser" comment, I hear you, and, ick. I've heard some local noises about local crackpot politicians wanting gender (sex) confirmation to be part of the physical examinations required for participation in school sports.

That idea really doesn't sit well with me, at all. I am aware that elite athletes surrender a certain amount of bodily privacy when they reach a certain level (among the people first to approach a marathon winner at the finish line is the "chaperone" who will stay with them until they have produced a urine specimen under the chaperone's supervision; elite runners also can be randomly tested, which means that an official might show up at your door at any time with a sample bottle in hand). That's a crazy thing to do in youth club sports.

I suppose "please create thoughtful, common-sense rules that protect the rights and well-being of all people involved" is a big ask of our current political leaders, but it would be nice if they tried.

I mentioned this a few months ago about political ads here in Indiana. One guy even had a picture of a male to female trans athlete in their ad which seemed extremely inappropriate to me because this person isn't even from Indiana.

It's the same bullshit they did with the migrant caravans a few years back. They create these fake things to be outraged about to get the stupidest members of their base out to the polls.

pjl44

Parksy said:

lastexitlondon said:

Kids should be nowhere near this. 
The internet is solely to blame. Before we had that this wasn't an issue. 
It annoys me as a parent. Be what you want but don't start pushing it on kids. 

I actually disagree with this.. with respect. And this is just solely opinion.

I think information is very important for fostering any kind of understanding.  

I personally want my kid to understand the difference between sex and gender. I want her to know all of the facts on a scientific level. I want her to know the stats... I want her to know how and why trans people are amongst us as opposed to either her being ignorant to it or even worse being afraid of it. At what age should she be subjected to this.... . fantastic question... that I would generally leave to those who specialize in educating. 

That said... when it comes to the 'pushing it on kids' I do want politics out of the schools which seems easier said than done. I've seen zero evidence that this is being pushed on kids here in Canada at least... but kids having an understanding of why and how people are different to me is important so she will be accepting and understanding as opposed to fearful and hating. 

I think you hit on the crucial point where this is a topic best left to parents on how/if they want to educate their kids. Schools I see as a reactive approach - correction whenever you have kids making fun of someone, using slurs, etc. No tolerance for intolerance but also not part of the proactive curriculum.

Parksy

pjl44 said:

Parksy said:

lastexitlondon said:

Kids should be nowhere near this. 
The internet is solely to blame. Before we had that this wasn't an issue. 
It annoys me as a parent. Be what you want but don't start pushing it on kids. 

I actually disagree with this.. with respect. And this is just solely opinion.

I think information is very important for fostering any kind of understanding.  

I personally want my kid to understand the difference between sex and gender. I want her to know all of the facts on a scientific level. I want her to know the stats... I want her to know how and why trans people are amongst us as opposed to either her being ignorant to it or even worse being afraid of it. At what age should she be subjected to this.... . fantastic question... that I would generally leave to those who specialize in educating. 

That said... when it comes to the 'pushing it on kids' I do want politics out of the schools which seems easier said than done. I've seen zero evidence that this is being pushed on kids here in Canada at least... but kids having an understanding of why and how people are different to me is important so she will be accepting and understanding as opposed to fearful and hating. 

I think you hit on the crucial point where this is a topic best left to parents on how/if they want to educate their kids. Schools I see as a reactive approach - correction whenever you have kids making fun of someone, using slurs, etc. No tolerance for intolerance but also not part of the proactive curriculum.

very good point. This is where things get interesting to me.... because I really don't have much insight on education.  (call  me  lazy and it would be the truth lol) 

I wonder like... it I was a teacher for example... and I dunno let's say anywhere from Grade 6 or so to high school.  How much of a tether do I have with regards to not so much the formulated curriculum but rather answering a question from a student.   Like if a student asks about the subject, am I ordered to respond by saying "talk to your folks?"  Can I express my opinion? Has the school board already stated a response.  Stuff like that intrigues me with regards to education. 

This is and was an issue politically in Canada. With the question being... "at what point do we interfere with parents upbringing / rights."  Putting aside sexual orientation etc.....    if a kid has parents who are flat earthers.....  and they ask their teacher "Hey, is the earth really flat?"   Like do we consider that also some sort of interference that borders on disrespect of parents' beliefs / rights?   Along the same lines....  if a kid is being brought up with their parents saying "Born with a penis, you're a male, born with a vagina, you're a female and that's the end of it" ... would it then be disrespectful or against a parents rights for a teacher to disagree with that?  Fascinating times we live in.     

cincybearcat

Gern Blansten said:

curmudgeoness said:

I think it also would help to inject facts into the conversation. I'm currently a registered voter in a deep red state (we move a lot), where a big fuss is being made about trans athletes participating in school sports, instituting bathroom bans in government buildings, etc. If I recall correctly, someone looked into how many students would be affected by the ban on transgender athletes' participation in girls' school sports, and the answer was: four. A big to-do was being made about keeping "our girls" safe from the "trans threat," and this epidemic of wokeness actually consisted of four young trans people.

The rights of those four young people matter! But they don't constitute a threat or a wave or a trend. They are four people. There must be more humane ways to address the issue.

With regard to the "Larry Nasser" comment, I hear you, and, ick. I've heard some local noises about local crackpot politicians wanting gender (sex) confirmation to be part of the physical examinations required for participation in school sports.

That idea really doesn't sit well with me, at all. I am aware that elite athletes surrender a certain amount of bodily privacy when they reach a certain level (among the people first to approach a marathon winner at the finish line is the "chaperone" who will stay with them until they have produced a urine specimen under the chaperone's supervision; elite runners also can be randomly tested, which means that an official might show up at your door at any time with a sample bottle in hand). That's a crazy thing to do in youth club sports.

I suppose "please create thoughtful, common-sense rules that protect the rights and well-being of all people involved" is a big ask of our current political leaders, but it would be nice if they tried.

I mentioned this a few months ago about political ads here in Indiana. One guy even had a picture of a male to female trans athlete in their ad which seemed extremely inappropriate to me because this person isn't even from Indiana.

It's the same bullshit they did with the migrant caravans a few years back. They create these fake things to be outraged about to get the stupidest members of their base out to the polls.

Or you know, you could address it and not let it get to a position that can be exploited by others....it's not a fake issue.  It is a limited issue for sure, but it's not fake.  And it matters to a lot of people.  It's no different than taking PED if you aren't going to care about testosterone levels, etc.

So just stop the nonsense, then the idiots have nothing to shout from the rooftops that is low hanging fruit.

Gern Blansten

cincybearcat said:

Gern Blansten said:

curmudgeoness said:

I think it also would help to inject facts into the conversation. I'm currently a registered voter in a deep red state (we move a lot), where a big fuss is being made about trans athletes participating in school sports, instituting bathroom bans in government buildings, etc. If I recall correctly, someone looked into how many students would be affected by the ban on transgender athletes' participation in girls' school sports, and the answer was: four. A big to-do was being made about keeping "our girls" safe from the "trans threat," and this epidemic of wokeness actually consisted of four young trans people.

The rights of those four young people matter! But they don't constitute a threat or a wave or a trend. They are four people. There must be more humane ways to address the issue.

With regard to the "Larry Nasser" comment, I hear you, and, ick. I've heard some local noises about local crackpot politicians wanting gender (sex) confirmation to be part of the physical examinations required for participation in school sports.

That idea really doesn't sit well with me, at all. I am aware that elite athletes surrender a certain amount of bodily privacy when they reach a certain level (among the people first to approach a marathon winner at the finish line is the "chaperone" who will stay with them until they have produced a urine specimen under the chaperone's supervision; elite runners also can be randomly tested, which means that an official might show up at your door at any time with a sample bottle in hand). That's a crazy thing to do in youth club sports.

I suppose "please create thoughtful, common-sense rules that protect the rights and well-being of all people involved" is a big ask of our current political leaders, but it would be nice if they tried.

I mentioned this a few months ago about political ads here in Indiana. One guy even had a picture of a male to female trans athlete in their ad which seemed extremely inappropriate to me because this person isn't even from Indiana.

It's the same bullshit they did with the migrant caravans a few years back. They create these fake things to be outraged about to get the stupidest members of their base out to the polls.

Or you know, you could address it and not let it get to a position that can be exploited by others....it's not a fake issue.  It is a limited issue for sure, but it's not fake.  And it matters to a lot of people.  It's no different than taking PED if you aren't going to care about testosterone levels, etc.

So just stop the nonsense, then the idiots have nothing to shout from the rooftops that is low hanging fruit.

It's fake to suggest that it is a big issue that affects very many people. A delicate issue for sure...but so rare it shouldn't be featured in political ads.

OnWis97

Gern Blansten said:

cincybearcat said:

Gern Blansten said:

curmudgeoness said:

I think it also would help to inject facts into the conversation. I'm currently a registered voter in a deep red state (we move a lot), where a big fuss is being made about trans athletes participating in school sports, instituting bathroom bans in government buildings, etc. If I recall correctly, someone looked into how many students would be affected by the ban on transgender athletes' participation in girls' school sports, and the answer was: four. A big to-do was being made about keeping "our girls" safe from the "trans threat," and this epidemic of wokeness actually consisted of four young trans people.

The rights of those four young people matter! But they don't constitute a threat or a wave or a trend. They are four people. There must be more humane ways to address the issue.

With regard to the "Larry Nasser" comment, I hear you, and, ick. I've heard some local noises about local crackpot politicians wanting gender (sex) confirmation to be part of the physical examinations required for participation in school sports.

That idea really doesn't sit well with me, at all. I am aware that elite athletes surrender a certain amount of bodily privacy when they reach a certain level (among the people first to approach a marathon winner at the finish line is the "chaperone" who will stay with them until they have produced a urine specimen under the chaperone's supervision; elite runners also can be randomly tested, which means that an official might show up at your door at any time with a sample bottle in hand). That's a crazy thing to do in youth club sports.

I suppose "please create thoughtful, common-sense rules that protect the rights and well-being of all people involved" is a big ask of our current political leaders, but it would be nice if they tried.

I mentioned this a few months ago about political ads here in Indiana. One guy even had a picture of a male to female trans athlete in their ad which seemed extremely inappropriate to me because this person isn't even from Indiana.

It's the same bullshit they did with the migrant caravans a few years back. They create these fake things to be outraged about to get the stupidest members of their base out to the polls.

Or you know, you could address it and not let it get to a position that can be exploited by others....it's not a fake issue.  It is a limited issue for sure, but it's not fake.  And it matters to a lot of people.  It's no different than taking PED if you aren't going to care about testosterone levels, etc.

So just stop the nonsense, then the idiots have nothing to shout from the rooftops that is low hanging fruit.

It's fake to suggest that it is a big issue that affects very many people. A delicate issue for sure...but so rare it shouldn't be featured in political ads.

It's working, politically...at least that's my admittedly anecdotal observation. It's really easy to take an anecdote that may or may not even be true (Parents and doctors mutating a ten-year-old girl because of "tomboy" behavior) and make people think it's a trend. Again, anecdotal but I've seen people claim to want universal healthcare but say they won't vote for Democrats because they think Dems will lead to "child mutilation."  It's bonkers.

Sports injects a relatable but ultimately confusing element to everything. As you say, it's probably not happening in big numbers. Either way, telling someone in high school that they're not eligible to participate in extracurricular activities reminds of some really ugly times; however, there are legitimate competitive concerns. Ultimately most people have those concerns and agree with bans. It's a really easy way not only to push people down the full anti-trans path...and maybe even the whole "anti-woke" path. Riley Gaines has become a conservative hero because she lost a college swim race to a trans competitor. I agree that it wasn't fair but I really do miss the pre-victim right's calls of "life's not always fair" and "get over it."

I'm wondering whether the "save women's sports" crowd will ultimately destroy it. There was the period of time where Katie Ledecky was being accused of being trans. It was totally baseless but, hey, I guess she's not conventionally attractive or something. The fervor around this issue has so many people thinking it's commonplace. My guess is most girls can go through four years of high school playing three sports and never run across a competitor born male. Does that mean such things should not be addressed? No. But we're also not about to be swept up by a pink and blue woke wave that will ban Christianity, hard work, conservative clothing, and pledging allegiance. 

tempo_n_groove

OnWis97 said:

Gern Blansten said:

cincybearcat said:

Gern Blansten said:

curmudgeoness said:

I think it also would help to inject facts into the conversation. I'm currently a registered voter in a deep red state (we move a lot), where a big fuss is being made about trans athletes participating in school sports, instituting bathroom bans in government buildings, etc. If I recall correctly, someone looked into how many students would be affected by the ban on transgender athletes' participation in girls' school sports, and the answer was: four. A big to-do was being made about keeping "our girls" safe from the "trans threat," and this epidemic of wokeness actually consisted of four young trans people.

The rights of those four young people matter! But they don't constitute a threat or a wave or a trend. They are four people. There must be more humane ways to address the issue.

With regard to the "Larry Nasser" comment, I hear you, and, ick. I've heard some local noises about local crackpot politicians wanting gender (sex) confirmation to be part of the physical examinations required for participation in school sports.

That idea really doesn't sit well with me, at all. I am aware that elite athletes surrender a certain amount of bodily privacy when they reach a certain level (among the people first to approach a marathon winner at the finish line is the "chaperone" who will stay with them until they have produced a urine specimen under the chaperone's supervision; elite runners also can be randomly tested, which means that an official might show up at your door at any time with a sample bottle in hand). That's a crazy thing to do in youth club sports.

I suppose "please create thoughtful, common-sense rules that protect the rights and well-being of all people involved" is a big ask of our current political leaders, but it would be nice if they tried.

I mentioned this a few months ago about political ads here in Indiana. One guy even had a picture of a male to female trans athlete in their ad which seemed extremely inappropriate to me because this person isn't even from Indiana.

It's the same bullshit they did with the migrant caravans a few years back. They create these fake things to be outraged about to get the stupidest members of their base out to the polls.

Or you know, you could address it and not let it get to a position that can be exploited by others....it's not a fake issue.  It is a limited issue for sure, but it's not fake.  And it matters to a lot of people.  It's no different than taking PED if you aren't going to care about testosterone levels, etc.

So just stop the nonsense, then the idiots have nothing to shout from the rooftops that is low hanging fruit.

It's fake to suggest that it is a big issue that affects very many people. A delicate issue for sure...but so rare it shouldn't be featured in political ads.

It's working, politically...at least that's my admittedly anecdotal observation. It's really easy to take an anecdote that may or may not even be true (Parents and doctors mutating a ten-year-old girl because of "tomboy" behavior) and make people think it's a trend. Again, anecdotal but I've seen people claim to want universal healthcare but say they won't vote for Democrats because they think Dems will lead to "child mutilation."  It's bonkers.

Sports injects a relatable but ultimately confusing element to everything. As you say, it's probably not happening in big numbers. Either way, telling someone in high school that they're not eligible to participate in extracurricular activities reminds of some really ugly times; however, there are legitimate competitive concerns. Ultimately most people have those concerns and agree with bans. It's a really easy way not only to push people down the full anti-trans path...and maybe even the whole "anti-woke" path. Riley Gaines has become a conservative hero because she lost a college swim race to a trans competitor. I agree that it wasn't fair but I really do miss the pre-victim right's calls of "life's not always fair" and "get over it."

I'm wondering whether the "save women's sports" crowd will ultimately destroy it. There was the period of time where Katie Ledecky was being accused of being trans. It was totally baseless but, hey, I guess she's not conventionally attractive or something. The fervor around this issue has so many people thinking it's commonplace. My guess is most girls can go through four years of high school playing three sports and never run across a competitor born male. Does that mean such things should not be addressed? No. But we're also not about to be swept up by a pink and blue woke wave that will ban Christianity, hard work, conservative clothing, and pledging allegiance. 

I don't think we should tell them they can't compete.  You just have to compete with the same sex not gender.  That should be the heart of the discussion. Even if you are on hormonal medication to adjust your T or E levels. Long Island just passed a law that states the above.

The Olympic committee had brought up a possible 3rd entry level but I think we can all agree that it would be a very small pool of participants.

We had a similar discussion a few years ago and it was a much different one than what we have now.

Sorry about your kiddo.  I hope she can still live a normal life and not be jaded.

Gern Blansten

OnWis97 said:

Gern Blansten said:

cincybearcat said:

Gern Blansten said:

curmudgeoness said:

I think it also would help to inject facts into the conversation. I'm currently a registered voter in a deep red state (we move a lot), where a big fuss is being made about trans athletes participating in school sports, instituting bathroom bans in government buildings, etc. If I recall correctly, someone looked into how many students would be affected by the ban on transgender athletes' participation in girls' school sports, and the answer was: four. A big to-do was being made about keeping "our girls" safe from the "trans threat," and this epidemic of wokeness actually consisted of four young trans people.

The rights of those four young people matter! But they don't constitute a threat or a wave or a trend. They are four people. There must be more humane ways to address the issue.

With regard to the "Larry Nasser" comment, I hear you, and, ick. I've heard some local noises about local crackpot politicians wanting gender (sex) confirmation to be part of the physical examinations required for participation in school sports.

That idea really doesn't sit well with me, at all. I am aware that elite athletes surrender a certain amount of bodily privacy when they reach a certain level (among the people first to approach a marathon winner at the finish line is the "chaperone" who will stay with them until they have produced a urine specimen under the chaperone's supervision; elite runners also can be randomly tested, which means that an official might show up at your door at any time with a sample bottle in hand). That's a crazy thing to do in youth club sports.

I suppose "please create thoughtful, common-sense rules that protect the rights and well-being of all people involved" is a big ask of our current political leaders, but it would be nice if they tried.

I mentioned this a few months ago about political ads here in Indiana. One guy even had a picture of a male to female trans athlete in their ad which seemed extremely inappropriate to me because this person isn't even from Indiana.

It's the same bullshit they did with the migrant caravans a few years back. They create these fake things to be outraged about to get the stupidest members of their base out to the polls.

Or you know, you could address it and not let it get to a position that can be exploited by others....it's not a fake issue.  It is a limited issue for sure, but it's not fake.  And it matters to a lot of people.  It's no different than taking PED if you aren't going to care about testosterone levels, etc.

So just stop the nonsense, then the idiots have nothing to shout from the rooftops that is low hanging fruit.

It's fake to suggest that it is a big issue that affects very many people. A delicate issue for sure...but so rare it shouldn't be featured in political ads.

It's working, politically...at least that's my admittedly anecdotal observation. It's really easy to take an anecdote that may or may not even be true (Parents and doctors mutating a ten-year-old girl because of "tomboy" behavior) and make people think it's a trend. Again, anecdotal but I've seen people claim to want universal healthcare but say they won't vote for Democrats because they think Dems will lead to "child mutilation."  It's bonkers.

Sports injects a relatable but ultimately confusing element to everything. As you say, it's probably not happening in big numbers. Either way, telling someone in high school that they're not eligible to participate in extracurricular activities reminds of some really ugly times; however, there are legitimate competitive concerns. Ultimately most people have those concerns and agree with bans. It's a really easy way not only to push people down the full anti-trans path...and maybe even the whole "anti-woke" path. Riley Gaines has become a conservative hero because she lost a college swim race to a trans competitor. I agree that it wasn't fair but I really do miss the pre-victim right's calls of "life's not always fair" and "get over it."

I'm wondering whether the "save women's sports" crowd will ultimately destroy it. There was the period of time where Katie Ledecky was being accused of being trans. It was totally baseless but, hey, I guess she's not conventionally attractive or something. The fervor around this issue has so many people thinking it's commonplace. My guess is most girls can go through four years of high school playing three sports and never run across a competitor born male. Does that mean such things should not be addressed? No. But we're also not about to be swept up by a pink and blue woke wave that will ban Christianity, hard work, conservative clothing, and pledging allegiance. 

Is it? Does it really convert anyone? The people who seem the most outraged were magats anyway.

OnWis97

Gern Blansten said:

OnWis97 said:

Gern Blansten said:

cincybearcat said:

Gern Blansten said:

curmudgeoness said:

I think it also would help to inject facts into the conversation. I'm currently a registered voter in a deep red state (we move a lot), where a big fuss is being made about trans athletes participating in school sports, instituting bathroom bans in government buildings, etc. If I recall correctly, someone looked into how many students would be affected by the ban on transgender athletes' participation in girls' school sports, and the answer was: four. A big to-do was being made about keeping "our girls" safe from the "trans threat," and this epidemic of wokeness actually consisted of four young trans people.

The rights of those four young people matter! But they don't constitute a threat or a wave or a trend. They are four people. There must be more humane ways to address the issue.

With regard to the "Larry Nasser" comment, I hear you, and, ick. I've heard some local noises about local crackpot politicians wanting gender (sex) confirmation to be part of the physical examinations required for participation in school sports.

That idea really doesn't sit well with me, at all. I am aware that elite athletes surrender a certain amount of bodily privacy when they reach a certain level (among the people first to approach a marathon winner at the finish line is the "chaperone" who will stay with them until they have produced a urine specimen under the chaperone's supervision; elite runners also can be randomly tested, which means that an official might show up at your door at any time with a sample bottle in hand). That's a crazy thing to do in youth club sports.

I suppose "please create thoughtful, common-sense rules that protect the rights and well-being of all people involved" is a big ask of our current political leaders, but it would be nice if they tried.

I mentioned this a few months ago about political ads here in Indiana. One guy even had a picture of a male to female trans athlete in their ad which seemed extremely inappropriate to me because this person isn't even from Indiana.

It's the same bullshit they did with the migrant caravans a few years back. They create these fake things to be outraged about to get the stupidest members of their base out to the polls.

Or you know, you could address it and not let it get to a position that can be exploited by others....it's not a fake issue.  It is a limited issue for sure, but it's not fake.  And it matters to a lot of people.  It's no different than taking PED if you aren't going to care about testosterone levels, etc.

So just stop the nonsense, then the idiots have nothing to shout from the rooftops that is low hanging fruit.

It's fake to suggest that it is a big issue that affects very many people. A delicate issue for sure...but so rare it shouldn't be featured in political ads.

It's working, politically...at least that's my admittedly anecdotal observation. It's really easy to take an anecdote that may or may not even be true (Parents and doctors mutating a ten-year-old girl because of "tomboy" behavior) and make people think it's a trend. Again, anecdotal but I've seen people claim to want universal healthcare but say they won't vote for Democrats because they think Dems will lead to "child mutilation."  It's bonkers.

Sports injects a relatable but ultimately confusing element to everything. As you say, it's probably not happening in big numbers. Either way, telling someone in high school that they're not eligible to participate in extracurricular activities reminds of some really ugly times; however, there are legitimate competitive concerns. Ultimately most people have those concerns and agree with bans. It's a really easy way not only to push people down the full anti-trans path...and maybe even the whole "anti-woke" path. Riley Gaines has become a conservative hero because she lost a college swim race to a trans competitor. I agree that it wasn't fair but I really do miss the pre-victim right's calls of "life's not always fair" and "get over it."

I'm wondering whether the "save women's sports" crowd will ultimately destroy it. There was the period of time where Katie Ledecky was being accused of being trans. It was totally baseless but, hey, I guess she's not conventionally attractive or something. The fervor around this issue has so many people thinking it's commonplace. My guess is most girls can go through four years of high school playing three sports and never run across a competitor born male. Does that mean such things should not be addressed? No. But we're also not about to be swept up by a pink and blue woke wave that will ban Christianity, hard work, conservative clothing, and pledging allegiance. 

Is it? Does it really convert anyone? The people who seem the most outraged were magats anyway.

Hard to say. I think the strategy with injecting sports into the discussion is that it brings in regular people who otherwise just want to live their lives. People care about sports in general (Olympics and big-time sports...even if women's is second-fiddle, stuff like this still resonates) and particularly youth - high school sports if they have children (particularly daughters). Does this move some middle-of-the-road people into that side of the culture war? Probably. A critical mass? Who knows?

pjl44

One of the ways this can spiral out of control is cherry picking reactions and then arguing with those reactions vs. discussing the issue on its merits with the people in front of you having the discussion.

Gern Blansten

It's a pretty bad situation when teachers try to promote empathy and tolerance and that is looked down upon by some parents. I cannot imagine the shitty religious school educations kids receive because their parents are intolerant assholes who just can't stand how the public schools approach these subjects.

cincybearcat

OnWis97 said:

Gern Blansten said:

OnWis97 said:

Gern Blansten said:

cincybearcat said:

Gern Blansten said:

curmudgeoness said:

I think it also would help to inject facts into the conversation. I'm currently a registered voter in a deep red state (we move a lot), where a big fuss is being made about trans athletes participating in school sports, instituting bathroom bans in government buildings, etc. If I recall correctly, someone looked into how many students would be affected by the ban on transgender athletes' participation in girls' school sports, and the answer was: four. A big to-do was being made about keeping "our girls" safe from the "trans threat," and this epidemic of wokeness actually consisted of four young trans people.

The rights of those four young people matter! But they don't constitute a threat or a wave or a trend. They are four people. There must be more humane ways to address the issue.

With regard to the "Larry Nasser" comment, I hear you, and, ick. I've heard some local noises about local crackpot politicians wanting gender (sex) confirmation to be part of the physical examinations required for participation in school sports.

That idea really doesn't sit well with me, at all. I am aware that elite athletes surrender a certain amount of bodily privacy when they reach a certain level (among the people first to approach a marathon winner at the finish line is the "chaperone" who will stay with them until they have produced a urine specimen under the chaperone's supervision; elite runners also can be randomly tested, which means that an official might show up at your door at any time with a sample bottle in hand). That's a crazy thing to do in youth club sports.

I suppose "please create thoughtful, common-sense rules that protect the rights and well-being of all people involved" is a big ask of our current political leaders, but it would be nice if they tried.

I mentioned this a few months ago about political ads here in Indiana. One guy even had a picture of a male to female trans athlete in their ad which seemed extremely inappropriate to me because this person isn't even from Indiana.

It's the same bullshit they did with the migrant caravans a few years back. They create these fake things to be outraged about to get the stupidest members of their base out to the polls.

Or you know, you could address it and not let it get to a position that can be exploited by others....it's not a fake issue.  It is a limited issue for sure, but it's not fake.  And it matters to a lot of people.  It's no different than taking PED if you aren't going to care about testosterone levels, etc.

So just stop the nonsense, then the idiots have nothing to shout from the rooftops that is low hanging fruit.

It's fake to suggest that it is a big issue that affects very many people. A delicate issue for sure...but so rare it shouldn't be featured in political ads.

It's working, politically...at least that's my admittedly anecdotal observation. It's really easy to take an anecdote that may or may not even be true (Parents and doctors mutating a ten-year-old girl because of "tomboy" behavior) and make people think it's a trend. Again, anecdotal but I've seen people claim to want universal healthcare but say they won't vote for Democrats because they think Dems will lead to "child mutilation."  It's bonkers.

Sports injects a relatable but ultimately confusing element to everything. As you say, it's probably not happening in big numbers. Either way, telling someone in high school that they're not eligible to participate in extracurricular activities reminds of some really ugly times; however, there are legitimate competitive concerns. Ultimately most people have those concerns and agree with bans. It's a really easy way not only to push people down the full anti-trans path...and maybe even the whole "anti-woke" path. Riley Gaines has become a conservative hero because she lost a college swim race to a trans competitor. I agree that it wasn't fair but I really do miss the pre-victim right's calls of "life's not always fair" and "get over it."

I'm wondering whether the "save women's sports" crowd will ultimately destroy it. There was the period of time where Katie Ledecky was being accused of being trans. It was totally baseless but, hey, I guess she's not conventionally attractive or something. The fervor around this issue has so many people thinking it's commonplace. My guess is most girls can go through four years of high school playing three sports and never run across a competitor born male. Does that mean such things should not be addressed? No. But we're also not about to be swept up by a pink and blue woke wave that will ban Christianity, hard work, conservative clothing, and pledging allegiance. 

Is it? Does it really convert anyone? The people who seem the most outraged were magats anyway.

Hard to say. I think the strategy with injecting sports into the discussion is that it brings in regular people who otherwise just want to live their lives. People care about sports in general (Olympics and big-time sports...even if women's is second-fiddle, stuff like this still resonates) and particularly youth - high school sports if they have children (particularly daughters). Does this move some middle-of-the-road people into that side of the culture war? Probably. A critical mass? Who knows?

I think it is a winning argument to the middle of the road voter...cause it's seen by many as a no brainer...most of them are women that participated in some all girls activity or have daughters that do now.  Relatable, easy slam dunk no brainer.  And then it becomes the proof of the "they will take it too far" crowd, so then potentially less likely to be supportive of future similar issues without being convinced.

mace1229

Gern Blansten said:

cincybearcat said:

Gern Blansten said:

curmudgeoness said:

I think it also would help to inject facts into the conversation. I'm currently a registered voter in a deep red state (we move a lot), where a big fuss is being made about trans athletes participating in school sports, instituting bathroom bans in government buildings, etc. If I recall correctly, someone looked into how many students would be affected by the ban on transgender athletes' participation in girls' school sports, and the answer was: four. A big to-do was being made about keeping "our girls" safe from the "trans threat," and this epidemic of wokeness actually consisted of four young trans people.

The rights of those four young people matter! But they don't constitute a threat or a wave or a trend. They are four people. There must be more humane ways to address the issue.

With regard to the "Larry Nasser" comment, I hear you, and, ick. I've heard some local noises about local crackpot politicians wanting gender (sex) confirmation to be part of the physical examinations required for participation in school sports.

That idea really doesn't sit well with me, at all. I am aware that elite athletes surrender a certain amount of bodily privacy when they reach a certain level (among the people first to approach a marathon winner at the finish line is the "chaperone" who will stay with them until they have produced a urine specimen under the chaperone's supervision; elite runners also can be randomly tested, which means that an official might show up at your door at any time with a sample bottle in hand). That's a crazy thing to do in youth club sports.

I suppose "please create thoughtful, common-sense rules that protect the rights and well-being of all people involved" is a big ask of our current political leaders, but it would be nice if they tried.

I mentioned this a few months ago about political ads here in Indiana. One guy even had a picture of a male to female trans athlete in their ad which seemed extremely inappropriate to me because this person isn't even from Indiana.

It's the same bullshit they did with the migrant caravans a few years back. They create these fake things to be outraged about to get the stupidest members of their base out to the polls.

Or you know, you could address it and not let it get to a position that can be exploited by others....it's not a fake issue.  It is a limited issue for sure, but it's not fake.  And it matters to a lot of people.  It's no different than taking PED if you aren't going to care about testosterone levels, etc.

So just stop the nonsense, then the idiots have nothing to shout from the rooftops that is low hanging fruit.

It's fake to suggest that it is a big issue that affects very many people. A delicate issue for sure...but so rare it shouldn't be featured in political ads.

That’s not true. Someone pointed out earlier it’s only 4 teams players in their school or league.
But it doesn’t only affect those 4. How many teammates do they have? How many of hundreds of people do they play against? So by letting them play you’re letting 4 biological males play with females you impact hundreds and hundreds of others. That can lead to safety issues, affect scholorships, etc. seems like a much, much smaller issue to just stick with what makes sense; males play against males. By allowing them to compete as females you’re literal putting the feelings of 4 over the safety and fairness of hundreds.
Theres a reason sports is broken down by age, that a 14 year old doesn’t play against 8 year olds. All of those same reasons apply to sex as well.

Gern Blansten

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

cincybearcat said:

Gern Blansten said:

curmudgeoness said:

I think it also would help to inject facts into the conversation. I'm currently a registered voter in a deep red state (we move a lot), where a big fuss is being made about trans athletes participating in school sports, instituting bathroom bans in government buildings, etc. If I recall correctly, someone looked into how many students would be affected by the ban on transgender athletes' participation in girls' school sports, and the answer was: four. A big to-do was being made about keeping "our girls" safe from the "trans threat," and this epidemic of wokeness actually consisted of four young trans people.

The rights of those four young people matter! But they don't constitute a threat or a wave or a trend. They are four people. There must be more humane ways to address the issue.

With regard to the "Larry Nasser" comment, I hear you, and, ick. I've heard some local noises about local crackpot politicians wanting gender (sex) confirmation to be part of the physical examinations required for participation in school sports.

That idea really doesn't sit well with me, at all. I am aware that elite athletes surrender a certain amount of bodily privacy when they reach a certain level (among the people first to approach a marathon winner at the finish line is the "chaperone" who will stay with them until they have produced a urine specimen under the chaperone's supervision; elite runners also can be randomly tested, which means that an official might show up at your door at any time with a sample bottle in hand). That's a crazy thing to do in youth club sports.

I suppose "please create thoughtful, common-sense rules that protect the rights and well-being of all people involved" is a big ask of our current political leaders, but it would be nice if they tried.

I mentioned this a few months ago about political ads here in Indiana. One guy even had a picture of a male to female trans athlete in their ad which seemed extremely inappropriate to me because this person isn't even from Indiana.

It's the same bullshit they did with the migrant caravans a few years back. They create these fake things to be outraged about to get the stupidest members of their base out to the polls.

Or you know, you could address it and not let it get to a position that can be exploited by others....it's not a fake issue.  It is a limited issue for sure, but it's not fake.  And it matters to a lot of people.  It's no different than taking PED if you aren't going to care about testosterone levels, etc.

So just stop the nonsense, then the idiots have nothing to shout from the rooftops that is low hanging fruit.

It's fake to suggest that it is a big issue that affects very many people. A delicate issue for sure...but so rare it shouldn't be featured in political ads.

That’s not true. Someone pointed out earlier it’s only 4 teams players in their school or league.
But it doesn’t only affect those 4. How many teammates do they have? How many of hundreds of people do they play against? So by letting them play you’re letting 4 biological males play with females you impact hundreds and hundreds of others. That can lead to safety issues, affect scholorships, etc. seems like a much, much smaller issue to just stick with what makes sense; males play against males. By allowing them to compete as females you’re literal putting the feelings of 4 over the safety and fairness of hundreds.
Theres a reason sports is broken down by age, that a 14 year old doesn’t play against 8 year olds. All of those same reasons apply to sex as well.

Are you saying that was a political decision to allow bio males to play with girls? Or was it a school/league decision?

I don't support bio males playing with girls and vice versa. I'm only saying that running political ads about it seems disingenuous. 

mace1229

Gern Blansten said:

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

cincybearcat said:

Gern Blansten said:

curmudgeoness said:

I think it also would help to inject facts into the conversation. I'm currently a registered voter in a deep red state (we move a lot), where a big fuss is being made about trans athletes participating in school sports, instituting bathroom bans in government buildings, etc. If I recall correctly, someone looked into how many students would be affected by the ban on transgender athletes' participation in girls' school sports, and the answer was: four. A big to-do was being made about keeping "our girls" safe from the "trans threat," and this epidemic of wokeness actually consisted of four young trans people.

The rights of those four young people matter! But they don't constitute a threat or a wave or a trend. They are four people. There must be more humane ways to address the issue.

With regard to the "Larry Nasser" comment, I hear you, and, ick. I've heard some local noises about local crackpot politicians wanting gender (sex) confirmation to be part of the physical examinations required for participation in school sports.

That idea really doesn't sit well with me, at all. I am aware that elite athletes surrender a certain amount of bodily privacy when they reach a certain level (among the people first to approach a marathon winner at the finish line is the "chaperone" who will stay with them until they have produced a urine specimen under the chaperone's supervision; elite runners also can be randomly tested, which means that an official might show up at your door at any time with a sample bottle in hand). That's a crazy thing to do in youth club sports.

I suppose "please create thoughtful, common-sense rules that protect the rights and well-being of all people involved" is a big ask of our current political leaders, but it would be nice if they tried.

I mentioned this a few months ago about political ads here in Indiana. One guy even had a picture of a male to female trans athlete in their ad which seemed extremely inappropriate to me because this person isn't even from Indiana.

It's the same bullshit they did with the migrant caravans a few years back. They create these fake things to be outraged about to get the stupidest members of their base out to the polls.

Or you know, you could address it and not let it get to a position that can be exploited by others....it's not a fake issue.  It is a limited issue for sure, but it's not fake.  And it matters to a lot of people.  It's no different than taking PED if you aren't going to care about testosterone levels, etc.

So just stop the nonsense, then the idiots have nothing to shout from the rooftops that is low hanging fruit.

It's fake to suggest that it is a big issue that affects very many people. A delicate issue for sure...but so rare it shouldn't be featured in political ads.

That’s not true. Someone pointed out earlier it’s only 4 teams players in their school or league.
But it doesn’t only affect those 4. How many teammates do they have? How many of hundreds of people do they play against? So by letting them play you’re letting 4 biological males play with females you impact hundreds and hundreds of others. That can lead to safety issues, affect scholorships, etc. seems like a much, much smaller issue to just stick with what makes sense; males play against males. By allowing them to compete as females you’re literal putting the feelings of 4 over the safety and fairness of hundreds.
Theres a reason sports is broken down by age, that a 14 year old doesn’t play against 8 year olds. All of those same reasons apply to sex as well.

Are you saying that was a political decision to allow bio males to play with girls? Or was it a school/league decision?

I don't support bio males playing with girls and vice versa. I'm only saying that running political ads about it seems disingenuous. 

I don’t know anything about that scenario. It seems common sense to me.
I was just responding to your comment and another saying it’s not a big issue that doesn’t affect very many. 1 trans player will affect hundreds of others. It’s a very big issue.

mickeyrat

Spunkie said:

Vitalogensia said:

OP, what do you mean by "interacted with"?  I'm assuming that means something like a forward and goalie running into each other while going for a header or something similar.  

I'm just getting to your question now as I was quite busy yesterday and didn't have a chance to thoughtfully read all these posts. My 12 year old striker daughter got a rebound header goal after her first shot was struck back at her by the U14 genetic male goalie during the BC provincial playoffs. 

so if I understand this , there was no physical contact between the two then?

could you share more details of the play in question, please? relative distances of your daughter to the goal, to the goalie, goalie from the mouth of the goal. relative size of each player.

did your daughter use good technique in this header? under the circumstances of this type of play.

as described thus far, it does sound as if this could have happened regardless of who the goalie might have been.

mace1229

mickeyrat said:

Spunkie said:

Vitalogensia said:

OP, what do you mean by "interacted with"?  I'm assuming that means something like a forward and goalie running into each other while going for a header or something similar.  

I'm just getting to your question now as I was quite busy yesterday and didn't have a chance to thoughtfully read all these posts. My 12 year old striker daughter got a rebound header goal after her first shot was struck back at her by the U14 genetic male goalie during the BC provincial playoffs. 

so if I understand this , there was no physical contact between the two then?

could you share more details of the play in question, please? relative distances of your daughter to the goal, to the goalie, goalie from the mouth of the goal. relative size of each player.

did your daughter use good technique in this header? under the circumstances of this type of play.

as described thus far, it does sound as if this could have happened regardless of who the goalie might have been.

There is always going to be risk in sports. Contact doesn’t  matter. You don’t want the best hitter from the baseball team jumping over to grips softball. Even if the fielder plays the ball wrong, has bad technique, you’re still increasing the risk of injury by allowing players who can hit the ball harder than those naturally on the team.

pjl44

mickeyrat said:

Spunkie said:

Vitalogensia said:

OP, what do you mean by "interacted with"?  I'm assuming that means something like a forward and goalie running into each other while going for a header or something similar.  

I'm just getting to your question now as I was quite busy yesterday and didn't have a chance to thoughtfully read all these posts. My 12 year old striker daughter got a rebound header goal after her first shot was struck back at her by the U14 genetic male goalie during the BC provincial playoffs. 

so if I understand this , there was no physical contact between the two then?

could you share more details of the play in question, please? relative distances of your daughter to the goal, to the goalie, goalie from the mouth of the goal. relative size of each player.

did your daughter use good technique in this header? under the circumstances of this type of play.

as described thus far, it does sound as if this could have happened regardless of who the goalie might have been.

I can't tell if this is serious 

F Me In The Brain

Gern Blansten said:

It's a pretty bad situation when teachers try to promote empathy and tolerance and that is looked down upon by some parents. I cannot imagine the shitty religious school educations kids receive because their parents are intolerant assholes who just can't stand how the public schools approach these subjects.

Depends what state we live in....in Louisiana the shitty public schools have the Ten commandments on the wall.
Pledge of Allegiance,  Ten commandments....this is shit that should not be in schools. 
In God We Trust should not be on our money.  
So dumb.

Agree that I don't need the schools teaching my son about sexuality.  We do that.  Schools can't even teach math correctly.

lindamarie73

Gern Blansten said:

It's a pretty bad situation when teachers try to promote empathy and tolerance and that is looked down upon by some parents. I cannot imagine the shitty religious school educations kids receive because their parents are intolerant assholes who just can't stand how the public schools approach these subjects.

How righteous and WOKE of you…...Good on ya…My parents must have failed me w/ my Catholic School edja-ma-cation…

Spunkie

mickeyrat said:

Spunkie said:

Vitalogensia said:

OP, what do you mean by "interacted with"?  I'm assuming that means something like a forward and goalie running into each other while going for a header or something similar.  

I'm just getting to your question now as I was quite busy yesterday and didn't have a chance to thoughtfully read all these posts. My 12 year old striker daughter got a rebound header goal after her first shot was struck back at her by the U14 genetic male goalie during the BC provincial playoffs. 

so if I understand this , there was no physical contact between the two then?

could you share more details of the play in question, please? relative distances of your daughter to the goal, to the goalie, goalie from the mouth of the goal. relative size of each player.

did your daughter use good technique in this header? under the circumstances of this type of play.

as described thus far, it does sound as if this could have happened regardless of who the goalie might have been.

I believe the force which the genetic male exerted upon the ball that caused blind spots, headache, and concussion is greater than that of a female player.

It wasn't a good planned technique header, like her first two this season. The genetic male goalie defended her stike which smacked her face/head and rebounded in.

mickeyrat

.

mickeyrat

Let me back up here I'm sorry your daughter got injured I'm not a parent so I can't imagine the fear you must have experienced watching your child injured on the field but having played the sport myself I know that a fact is that the force applied is only relative to the velocity of the ball that was punched,  so it sounds to me like your daughter got a really good boot on the ball . that the same or similar injury could have occurred had that same ball hit the post or the crossbar . so I think honestly this has less to do with the fact that the genetic male punched the ball then it was just a freak play

Spunkie

It's been a long time since I took physics but I'm pretty certain that punching a ball back is going to add more energy to it than bouncing off a lifeless post. And I'm fairly certain that larger male with larger forearm muscles are going to have more power than a thirteen year old female.

Spunkie

As for the head injuries in this contact sport we don't sweat it unless the ambulance comes.

tempo_n_groove

mickeyrat said:

Let me back up here I'm sorry your daughter got injured I'm not a parent so I can't imagine the fear you must have experienced watching your child injured on the field but having played the sport myself I know that a fact is that the force applied is only relative to the velocity of the ball that was punched,  so it sounds to me like your daughter got a really good boot on the ball . that the same or similar injury could have occurred had that same ball hit the post or the crossbar . so I think honestly this has less to do with the fact that the genetic male punched the ball then it was just a freak play

Doubling down...

Gern Blansten

lindamarie73 said:

Gern Blansten said:

It's a pretty bad situation when teachers try to promote empathy and tolerance and that is looked down upon by some parents. I cannot imagine the shitty religious school educations kids receive because their parents are intolerant assholes who just can't stand how the public schools approach these subjects.

How righteous and WOKE of you…...Good on ya…My parents must have failed me w/ my Catholic School edja-ma-cation…

Catholic schools are not in the same category as these "christian" schools that pop up to serve the needs of the intolerant.

I really doubt that your education taught Noah and the Ark instead of evolution

Spiritual_Chaos

lindamarie73 said:

Gern Blansten said:

It's a pretty bad situation when teachers try to promote empathy and tolerance and that is looked down upon by some parents. I cannot imagine the shitty religious school educations kids receive because their parents are intolerant assholes who just can't stand how the public schools approach these subjects.

How righteous and WOKE of you…...Good on ya…My parents must have failed me w/ my Catholic School edja-ma-cation…

Aren't you the one screaming on these boards about Greta Thunberg being part of ANTIFA and spreading hate-rhetoric against a then teenage girl, because you take your news whole-sale from alt-right twitter accounts without any filter of your own? i imagine someone failed you somewhere, If it's the catholic school or not, is for you to dig around for. Hard to tell for an outsider.

Spiritual_Chaos

lastexitlondon said:

Kids should be nowhere near this. 
The internet is solely to blame. Before we had that this wasn't an issue. 
It annoys me as a parent. Be what you want but don't start pushing it on kids. 

Kids should be nowhere near this.
Discotheques and David Bowie are solely to blame. Before we had that, homosexuality wasn't an issue.
It annoys me as a parent. Be what you want but don't start pushing it on kids.

That's the other verse in the smash hit  "Smells Like Ignorance Through the Ages"

mace1229

mickeyrat said:

Let me back up here I'm sorry your daughter got injured I'm not a parent so I can't imagine the fear you must have experienced watching your child injured on the field but having played the sport myself I know that a fact is that the force applied is only relative to the velocity of the ball that was punched,  so it sounds to me like your daughter got a really good boot on the ball . that the same or similar injury could have occurred had that same ball hit the post or the crossbar . so I think honestly this has less to do with the fact that the genetic male punched the ball then it was just a freak play

So a bunt is the same as a swing? I’ve never seen a home run off a bunt before, but if only the velocity of the ball matters and not the force of the object hitting it, then we should be seeing HR bunts.
Of course a male with more mass and more muscles is going to head a ball back harder than a smaller, lighter female and increase the likelihood of injury. You don’t need a physics degree to understand that. But good effort to blame her daughter and lack of technique.