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Transgendered/Trans-Identifying Athletes

SpunkieSpunkie I come from downtown. Posts: 6,043
edited July 8 in A Moving Train
BC soccer supports inclusion.

This allowed XY chromosome children (genetic males) to play on the field with my daughter at the provincial championships this weekend. While my daughter interacted with the larger XY chromosomal goalie, she suffered an injury and her vision is now impaired.

I wish that I never co-founded transgender day of remembrance in Vancouver. I feel we need to protect genetic females in sports.
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    lastexitlondonlastexitlondon Posts: 12,995
    edited July 8
    I'm very clear on this. 
    It's a no for me. Keep sport separate. There is only harm to come from mixing genetic males and females . And no need. I played lots of sports and I don't see why they don't have their own category.
    Post edited by lastexitlondon on
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    mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,153
    I'm very clear on this. 
    It's a no for me. Keep sport separate. There is only harm to come from mixing genetic males and females . And no need. I played lots of sports and I don't see why they don't have their own category.
    Completely agree. It’s obvious there is not only an unfair advantage, but as pointed out, a safety concern.
    Drop the name girls/boys from sports, call it XX and XY if we need to.

    But what do you mean “I don't see why they don't have their own category.”? You mean why don’t trans have their own sports category? I would assume there aren’t enough. Can’t field a soccer team with only 2 players.
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    lastexitlondonlastexitlondon Posts: 12,995
    Yeah trans league go do that  if they can't find enough oh well.
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    brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 41,189
    Spunkie said:
    BC soccer supports inclusion.

    This allowed XY chromosome children (genetic males) to play on the field with my daughter at the provincial championships this weekend. While my daughter interacted with the larger XY chromosomal goalie, she suffered an injury and her vision is now impaired.

    I wish that I never co-founded transgender day of remembrance in Vancouver. I feel we need to protect genetic females in sports.

    Your efforts came from a good heart, Spunky.  Try not to beat yourself up over it.  It's another case of taking a good idea too far (not you, I mean in general).  I think my trans friends would agree.  Kudos for trying to do something good, I'm just sorry things went awry in other ways.
    I hope you daughter gets some good help with her vision, and I hope somehow people will come around to creating some sensible, safe gender divisions in sports.  Otherwise, it's just a free for all and more injuries will occur. 
    I'm very clear on this. 
    It's a no for me. Keep sport separate. There is only harm to come from mixing genetic males and females . And no need. I played lots of sports and I don't see why they don't have their own category.

    I agree, Rob. Also with the trans league idea.  It only makes sense. And god know the world could use more sense!

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    pjl44pjl44 Posts: 8,629
    Totally agree with everyone here and I'm sorry to hear about your daughter, Spunkie. All the best with her recovery.
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    SpunkieSpunkie I come from downtown. Posts: 6,043
    On a different note, to remain competitive, our team could always find some boys willing to say they identify as girls 🤷
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    Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 18,415
    Spunkie said:
    BC soccer supports inclusion.

    This allowed XY chromosome children (genetic males) to play on the field with my daughter at the provincial championships this weekend. While my daughter interacted with the larger XY chromosomal goalie, she suffered an injury and her vision is now impaired.

    I wish that I never co-founded transgender day of remembrance in Vancouver. I feel we need to protect genetic females in sports.
    Very sorry to see this.

    I'm all for supporting their rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness but I do not agree with the inclusion that you mention. There really does need to be a separate league. I am sure that the argument would be that the injury could have still occurred with a similarly sized female player though.
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    JeBurkhardtJeBurkhardt Posts: 4,613
    I hope your daughter recovers soon. I just think it is inherently unfair to allow female identifying genetical males to compete in sports against biological females. Strength, size and speed differences make it an uneven playing field.  
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    cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,227
    I am honestly surprised this issue is controversial in anyway.  Why did "womens/girls" and "men/boys" leagues exist to begin with?  So, if that still matters, apply it.  If it doesn't, then all 1 league...and there goes a ridiculous number of opportunities for girls/women in this country.

    It is really not hard to see the competitive advantage.
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    mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,673
    some sports differ from others. i e. physicality vs skill etc. whats considered a contact sport vs non. Soccer IS a contact sport.

    I think its a different question as it relates to school age kids competing vs young adult/adult. as well as prepubescent vs pubescent  age groups. 

    not having kids I dont have skin in the game as it were. but I wonder if hormone level testing is appropriate/needed?
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    pjl44pjl44 Posts: 8,629
    I think having boys' and girls' leagues gets you there simply enough without subjecting all young athletes to hormone testing.

    They've already been covered here but the only logical alternative approaches are to create an open division in a given sport (which when tried has typically had low enrollment) or remove sex-segregated teams (which would collapse girls' and womens' sports).
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    curmudgeonesscurmudgeoness Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 3,480
    mickeyrat said:
    some sports differ from others. i e. physicality vs skill etc. whats considered a contact sport vs non. Soccer IS a contact sport.

    I think its a different question as it relates to school age kids competing vs young adult/adult. as well as prepubescent vs pubescent  age groups. 

    not having kids I dont have skin in the game as it were. but I wonder if hormone level testing is appropriate/needed?

    That happens in running -- the highest-profile case being that of Caster Semenya. Semenya is not trans, rather she is intersex, with typical male testosterone levels. From Wikipedia: <<In 2019, new World Athletics rules came into force preventing athletes like Semenya with certain disorders of sex development (DSDs) from participating in 400m, 800m, and 1500m events in the female classification, unless they take medication to suppress their testosterone levels.>> Sex-based differences give males the greatest advantage at shorter distances, hence the ban on Semenya and several other 800M runners.

    Nikki Hiltz is a non-binary runner who will represent the US at the Olympics -- but Hiltz is biologically female, competing in women's events.

    I believe that trans people should be accorded the same dignity and respect as everyone else, and they should be able to live their lives free of harassment. But nobody has a right to participate in high-level sports or go to the Olympics. Does it suck to want to compete in, say, D1 swimming while living your authentic life as a trans woman and be told you can't swim on the women's team? I'm sure it does, and I'm sympathetic to those feelings of frustration and disappointment. It also sucked when my child with special needs had few options for group activities because nobody wanted to deal with their issues.

    I wonder, if we attempt to reinforce the concepts of sex vs. gender, would that help? Biological sex refers to the set of chromosomes you were born with -- XX, XY, or in some cases (such as Caster Semenya), XYY or XO. Gender is a social construct: Are you a man or a woman? Neither? Both? Unsure? You can exercise choice as to how you live your life and how you identify; transitioning to a gender that does not correspond to your biological sex doesn't change your chromosomal makeup.
    So, if we referred to "males' swimming" and "females' swimming," would that help a little? Maybe?
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    F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 30,852
    mickeyrat said:
    some sports differ from others. i e. physicality vs skill etc. whats considered a contact sport vs non. Soccer IS a contact sport.

    I think its a different question as it relates to school age kids competing vs young adult/adult. as well as prepubescent vs pubescent  age groups. 

    not having kids I dont have skin in the game as it were. but I wonder if hormone level testing is appropriate/needed?

    That happens in running -- the highest-profile case being that of Caster Semenya. Semenya is not trans, rather she is intersex, with typical male testosterone levels. From Wikipedia: <<In 2019, new World Athletics rules came into force preventing athletes like Semenya with certain disorders of sex development (DSDs) from participating in 400m, 800m, and 1500m events in the female classification, unless they take medication to suppress their testosterone levels.>> Sex-based differences give males the greatest advantage at shorter distances, hence the ban on Semenya and several other 800M runners.

    Nikki Hiltz is a non-binary runner who will represent the US at the Olympics -- but Hiltz is biologically female, competing in women's events.

    I believe that trans people should be accorded the same dignity and respect as everyone else, and they should be able to live their lives free of harassment. But nobody has a right to participate in high-level sports or go to the Olympics. Does it suck to want to compete in, say, D1 swimming while living your authentic life as a trans woman and be told you can't swim on the women's team? I'm sure it does, and I'm sympathetic to those feelings of frustration and disappointment. It also sucked when my child with special needs had few options for group activities because nobody wanted to deal with their issues.

    I wonder, if we attempt to reinforce the concepts of sex vs. gender, would that help? Biological sex refers to the set of chromosomes you were born with -- XX, XY, or in some cases (such as Caster Semenya), XYY or XO. Gender is a social construct: Are you a man or a woman? Neither? Both? Unsure? You can exercise choice as to how you live your life and how you identify; transitioning to a gender that does not correspond to your biological sex doesn't change your chromosomal makeup.
    So, if we referred to "males' swimming" and "females' swimming," would that help a little? Maybe?
    Saw the Nikki Hiltz news but this isn't really news, as you point out, since she is biologically female.

    Also, races that I participate in are now utilizing non-binary category as an option.
    I assumed trans runners went there but that was probably stupid of me.  If I consider myself a man or a woman I likely select one of those categories.  If I say I am a They, then I likely choose the non binary.

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    VitalogensiaVitalogensia Posts: 1,979
    OP, what do you mean by "interacted with"?  I'm assuming that means something like a forward and goalie running into each other while going for a header or something similar.  
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    lastexitlondonlastexitlondon Posts: 12,995
    If a " man" slide tackles a " woman" 
    That would be disastrous. Full stop
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    OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 4,889
    mickeyrat said:
    some sports differ from others. i e. physicality vs skill etc. whats considered a contact sport vs non. Soccer IS a contact sport.

    I think its a different question as it relates to school age kids competing vs young adult/adult. as well as prepubescent vs pubescent  age groups. 

    not having kids I dont have skin in the game as it were. but I wonder if hormone level testing is appropriate/needed?

    That happens in running -- the highest-profile case being that of Caster Semenya. Semenya is not trans, rather she is intersex, with typical male testosterone levels. From Wikipedia: <<In 2019, new World Athletics rules came into force preventing athletes like Semenya with certain disorders of sex development (DSDs) from participating in 400m, 800m, and 1500m events in the female classification, unless they take medication to suppress their testosterone levels.>> Sex-based differences give males the greatest advantage at shorter distances, hence the ban on Semenya and several other 800M runners.

    Nikki Hiltz is a non-binary runner who will represent the US at the Olympics -- but Hiltz is biologically female, competing in women's events.

    I believe that trans people should be accorded the same dignity and respect as everyone else, and they should be able to live their lives free of harassment. But nobody has a right to participate in high-level sports or go to the Olympics. Does it suck to want to compete in, say, D1 swimming while living your authentic life as a trans woman and be told you can't swim on the women's team? I'm sure it does, and I'm sympathetic to those feelings of frustration and disappointment. It also sucked when my child with special needs had few options for group activities because nobody wanted to deal with their issues.

    I wonder, if we attempt to reinforce the concepts of sex vs. gender, would that help? Biological sex refers to the set of chromosomes you were born with -- XX, XY, or in some cases (such as Caster Semenya), XYY or XO. Gender is a social construct: Are you a man or a woman? Neither? Both? Unsure? You can exercise choice as to how you live your life and how you identify; transitioning to a gender that does not correspond to your biological sex doesn't change your chromosomal makeup.
    So, if we referred to "males' swimming" and "females' swimming," would that help a little? Maybe?
    A lot interesting points here. One of them is "sex vs. gender." I feel like it's kind of an unfortunate quirk of the English language that sex refers both to male/female and intercourse. People don't like to use the word (adults become six-year-olds scared to use a "dirty" word...) so they use "gender" in its place. "Gender reveals" should be "Sex reveals." It leads to inaccurate use of "gender" and does cause some confusion.

    I hate this issue because it's often used as the gateway to all things anti-trans.  (General talk about the issues and then..."what about sports.") I also want everyone to be able to compete and we're not going to have a TransNBA alongside the WNBA and NBA. And we're not going to have a third gender sex in the Olympics. And while most people, regardless sex / gender, will never be able to compete at such high levels, youth and school sports are prevalent in the lives of most young people. And it's not fair in many sports for a genetic male to compete with genetic females. Sure, sometimes I miss the days when we'd say "life isn't always fair" but now we're talking about potential safety concerns, as well. So I begrudgingly understand the angle on this one. That all said, I hate the argumentative doors this opens and I fear a future where participants in girls sports have to be examined by the Dr. Nassers of the world to be "certified female."
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    SpunkieSpunkie I come from downtown. Posts: 6,043
    Seriously I was going to look up the DSM-5 about gender dysmorphia or what the heck the psychologists use for terminology because last exit London's post made me think that we don't need a third category we have special Olympics
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    SpunkieSpunkie I come from downtown. Posts: 6,043


    But seriously thank you for your thoughtful posts when I have some brain power tomorrow I'll read them yeah it's a whole different can of worms with the young kids, too hey.
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    lastexitlondonlastexitlondon Posts: 12,995
    Kids should be nowhere near this. 
    The internet is solely to blame. Before we had that this wasn't an issue. 
    It annoys me as a parent. Be what you want but don't start pushing it on kids. 
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    brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 41,189
    Kids should be nowhere near this. 
    The internet is solely to blame. Before we had that this wasn't an issue. 
    It annoys me as a parent. Be what you want but don't start pushing it on kids. 

    When I was a toddler, I had a doll.  My parents later told me I wanted a doll, so they gave me a doll.  You know, your basic everyday 1950s girl doll.  They didn't assume I wanted to be a girl instead of a boy, or consider that I should be gender neutral (I'm not even sure what that is, but it has to be mighty rare, right?), or worried that I would grow up to be gay, or gave it any thought along those lines at all.  I was a little boy with a doll.  BFD!  Did it mean anything?  No!  Did I turn out trans, gay, straight, bi, tri (try anything)?  Irrelevant!  I am what I am because my parents didn't make a big deal about this stuff when I was a kid.  I got to be a kid.  A child.  Lucky me!  Why, at that age, would anyone waste time thinking about anything beyond that as being relevant (unless it was something obvious like being a hermaphrodite- not a bad thing, but not common)?  It's not relevant to a child.  Just let kids be kids and then later, lots later, let them grow up to be what they are supposed to be.  And then accept that and love them.
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    lastexitlondonlastexitlondon Posts: 12,995
    brianlux said:
    Kids should be nowhere near this. 
    The internet is solely to blame. Before we had that this wasn't an issue. 
    It annoys me as a parent. Be what you want but don't start pushing it on kids. 

    When I was a toddler, I had a doll.  My parents later told me I wanted a doll, so they gave me a doll.  You know, your basic everyday 1950s girl doll.  They didn't assume I wanted to be a girl instead of a boy, or consider that I should be gender neutral (I'm not even sure what that is, but it has to be mighty rare, right?), or worried that I would grow up to be gay, or gave it any thought along those lines at all.  I was a little boy with a doll.  BFD!  Did it mean anything?  No!  Did I turn out trans, gay, straight, bi, tri (try anything)?  Irrelevant!  I am what I am because my parents didn't make a big deal about this stuff when I was a kid.  I got to be a kid.  A child.  Lucky me!  Why, at that age, would anyone waste time thinking about anything beyond that as being relevant (unless it was something obvious like being a hermaphrodite- not a bad thing, but not common)?  It's not relevant to a child.  Just let kids be kids and then later, lots later, let them grow up to be what they are supposed to be.  And then accept that and love them.
    Agreed toys are not gender specific a toy is a toy. Fully 100% with you on every word 
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    VitalogensiaVitalogensia Posts: 1,979
    Spunkie said:
    Seriously I was going to look up the DSM-5 about gender dysmorphia or what the heck the psychologists use for terminology because last exit London's post made me think that we don't need a third category we have special Olympics
    OP, no need to answer my question, you've answered yourself here.  
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    cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,227
    OnWis97 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    some sports differ from others. i e. physicality vs skill etc. whats considered a contact sport vs non. Soccer IS a contact sport.

    I think its a different question as it relates to school age kids competing vs young adult/adult. as well as prepubescent vs pubescent  age groups. 

    not having kids I dont have skin in the game as it were. but I wonder if hormone level testing is appropriate/needed?

    That happens in running -- the highest-profile case being that of Caster Semenya. Semenya is not trans, rather she is intersex, with typical male testosterone levels. From Wikipedia: <<In 2019, new World Athletics rules came into force preventing athletes like Semenya with certain disorders of sex development (DSDs) from participating in 400m, 800m, and 1500m events in the female classification, unless they take medication to suppress their testosterone levels.>> Sex-based differences give males the greatest advantage at shorter distances, hence the ban on Semenya and several other 800M runners.

    Nikki Hiltz is a non-binary runner who will represent the US at the Olympics -- but Hiltz is biologically female, competing in women's events.

    I believe that trans people should be accorded the same dignity and respect as everyone else, and they should be able to live their lives free of harassment. But nobody has a right to participate in high-level sports or go to the Olympics. Does it suck to want to compete in, say, D1 swimming while living your authentic life as a trans woman and be told you can't swim on the women's team? I'm sure it does, and I'm sympathetic to those feelings of frustration and disappointment. It also sucked when my child with special needs had few options for group activities because nobody wanted to deal with their issues.

    I wonder, if we attempt to reinforce the concepts of sex vs. gender, would that help? Biological sex refers to the set of chromosomes you were born with -- XX, XY, or in some cases (such as Caster Semenya), XYY or XO. Gender is a social construct: Are you a man or a woman? Neither? Both? Unsure? You can exercise choice as to how you live your life and how you identify; transitioning to a gender that does not correspond to your biological sex doesn't change your chromosomal makeup.
    So, if we referred to "males' swimming" and "females' swimming," would that help a little? Maybe?
    A lot interesting points here. One of them is "sex vs. gender." I feel like it's kind of an unfortunate quirk of the English language that sex refers both to male/female and intercourse. People don't like to use the word (adults become six-year-olds scared to use a "dirty" word...) so they use "gender" in its place. "Gender reveals" should be "Sex reveals." It leads to inaccurate use of "gender" and does cause some confusion.

    I hate this issue because it's often used as the gateway to all things anti-trans.  (General talk about the issues and then..."what about sports.") I also want everyone to be able to compete and we're not going to have a TransNBA alongside the WNBA and NBA. And we're not going to have a third gender sex in the Olympics. And while most people, regardless sex / gender, will never be able to compete at such high levels, youth and school sports are prevalent in the lives of most young people. And it's not fair in many sports for a genetic male to compete with genetic females. Sure, sometimes I miss the days when we'd say "life isn't always fair" but now we're talking about potential safety concerns, as well. So I begrudgingly understand the angle on this one. That all said, I hate the argumentative doors this opens and I fear a future where participants in girls sports have to be examined by the Dr. Nassers of the world to be "certified female."
    I understand the concern somewhat.  But IMO, its a slippery slope and where those that are bigoted start specifically because it's logical issue with the current path we are on.  
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    SpunkieSpunkie I come from downtown. Posts: 6,043
    OP, what do you mean by "interacted with"?  I'm assuming that means something like a forward and goalie running into each other while going for a header or something similar.  
    I'm just getting to your question now as I was quite busy yesterday and didn't have a chance to thoughtfully read all these posts. My 12 year old striker daughter got a rebound header goal after her first shot was struck back at her by the U14 genetic male goalie during the BC provincial playoffs. 
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    lastexitlondonlastexitlondon Posts: 12,995
    Think of the hormones and growth a boy of 14 has
     It's just plain wrong up mix them with girls of that or any age
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    curmudgeonesscurmudgeoness Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 3,480
    I think it also would help to inject facts into the conversation. I'm currently a registered voter in a deep red state (we move a lot), where a big fuss is being made about trans athletes participating in school sports, instituting bathroom bans in government buildings, etc. If I recall correctly, someone looked into how many students would be affected by the ban on transgender athletes' participation in girls' school sports, and the answer was: four. A big to-do was being made about keeping "our girls" safe from the "trans threat," and this epidemic of wokeness actually consisted of four young trans people.
    The rights of those four young people matter! But they don't constitute a threat or a wave or a trend. They are four people. There must be more humane ways to address the issue.

    With regard to the "Larry Nasser" comment, I hear you, and, ick. I've heard some local noises about local crackpot politicians wanting gender (sex) confirmation to be part of the physical examinations required for participation in school sports.
    That idea really doesn't sit well with me, at all. I am aware that elite athletes surrender a certain amount of bodily privacy when they reach a certain level (among the people first to approach a marathon winner at the finish line is the "chaperone" who will stay with them until they have produced a urine specimen under the chaperone's supervision; elite runners also can be randomly tested, which means that an official might show up at your door at any time with a sample bottle in hand). That's a crazy thing to do in youth club sports.
    I suppose "please create thoughtful, common-sense rules that protect the rights and well-being of all people involved" is a big ask of our current political leaders, but it would be nice if they tried.

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    mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,153
    I think it also would help to inject facts into the conversation. I'm currently a registered voter in a deep red state (we move a lot), where a big fuss is being made about trans athletes participating in school sports, instituting bathroom bans in government buildings, etc. If I recall correctly, someone looked into how many students would be affected by the ban on transgender athletes' participation in girls' school sports, and the answer was: four. A big to-do was being made about keeping "our girls" safe from the "trans threat," and this epidemic of wokeness actually consisted of four young trans people.
    The rights of those four young people matter! But they don't constitute a threat or a wave or a trend. They are four people. There must be more humane ways to address the issue.

    With regard to the "Larry Nasser" comment, I hear you, and, ick. I've heard some local noises about local crackpot politicians wanting gender (sex) confirmation to be part of the physical examinations required for participation in school sports.
    That idea really doesn't sit well with me, at all. I am aware that elite athletes surrender a certain amount of bodily privacy when they reach a certain level (among the people first to approach a marathon winner at the finish line is the "chaperone" who will stay with them until they have produced a urine specimen under the chaperone's supervision; elite runners also can be randomly tested, which means that an official might show up at your door at any time with a sample bottle in hand). That's a crazy thing to do in youth club sports.
    I suppose "please create thoughtful, common-sense rules that protect the rights and well-being of all people involved" is a big ask of our current political leaders, but it would be nice if they tried.

    What rights of those 4 biological males are being violated if they are forced to play against other males? That’s the part I don’t get. No one is saying they  can’t play.  They can still play. They just play against others created like them to keep the game fair, balanced, and as the OP pointed out, safe. How is that unfair or violating any rights?
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    lastexitlondonlastexitlondon Posts: 12,995
    mace1229 said:
    I think it also would help to inject facts into the conversation. I'm currently a registered voter in a deep red state (we move a lot), where a big fuss is being made about trans athletes participating in school sports, instituting bathroom bans in government buildings, etc. If I recall correctly, someone looked into how many students would be affected by the ban on transgender athletes' participation in girls' school sports, and the answer was: four. A big to-do was being made about keeping "our girls" safe from the "trans threat," and this epidemic of wokeness actually consisted of four young trans people.
    The rights of those four young people matter! But they don't constitute a threat or a wave or a trend. They are four people. There must be more humane ways to address the issue.

    With regard to the "Larry Nasser" comment, I hear you, and, ick. I've heard some local noises about local crackpot politicians wanting gender (sex) confirmation to be part of the physical examinations required for participation in school sports.
    That idea really doesn't sit well with me, at all. I am aware that elite athletes surrender a certain amount of bodily privacy when they reach a certain level (among the people first to approach a marathon winner at the finish line is the "chaperone" who will stay with them until they have produced a urine specimen under the chaperone's supervision; elite runners also can be randomly tested, which means that an official might show up at your door at any time with a sample bottle in hand). That's a crazy thing to do in youth club sports.
    I suppose "please create thoughtful, common-sense rules that protect the rights and well-being of all people involved" is a big ask of our current political leaders, but it would be nice if they tried.

    What rights of those 4 biological males are being violated if they are forced to play against other males? That’s the part I don’t get. No one is saying they  can’t play.  They can still play. They just play against others created like them to keep the game fair, balanced, and as the OP pointed out, safe. How is that unfair or violating any rights?
    Perfect 
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    ParksyParksy Posts: 1,734
    Kids should be nowhere near this. 
    The internet is solely to blame. Before we had that this wasn't an issue. 
    It annoys me as a parent. Be what you want but don't start pushing it on kids. 
    I actually disagree with this.. with respect. And this is just solely opinion.

    I think information is very important for fostering any kind of understanding.  

    I personally want my kid to understand the difference between sex and gender. I want her to know all of the facts on a scientific level. I want her to know the stats... I want her to know how and why trans people are amongst us as opposed to either her being ignorant to it or even worse being afraid of it. At what age should she be subjected to this.... . fantastic question... that I would generally leave to those who specialize in educating. 

    That said... when it comes to the 'pushing it on kids' I do want politics out of the schools which seems easier said than done. I've seen zero evidence that this is being pushed on kids here in Canada at least... but kids having an understanding of why and how people are different to me is important so she will be accepting and understanding as opposed to fearful and hating. 
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    ParksyParksy Posts: 1,734
    OnWis97 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    some sports differ from others. i e. physicality vs skill etc. whats considered a contact sport vs non. Soccer IS a contact sport.

    I think its a different question as it relates to school age kids competing vs young adult/adult. as well as prepubescent vs pubescent  age groups. 

    not having kids I dont have skin in the game as it were. but I wonder if hormone level testing is appropriate/needed?

    That happens in running -- the highest-profile case being that of Caster Semenya. Semenya is not trans, rather she is intersex, with typical male testosterone levels. From Wikipedia: <<In 2019, new World Athletics rules came into force preventing athletes like Semenya with certain disorders of sex development (DSDs) from participating in 400m, 800m, and 1500m events in the female classification, unless they take medication to suppress their testosterone levels.>> Sex-based differences give males the greatest advantage at shorter distances, hence the ban on Semenya and several other 800M runners.

    Nikki Hiltz is a non-binary runner who will represent the US at the Olympics -- but Hiltz is biologically female, competing in women's events.

    I believe that trans people should be accorded the same dignity and respect as everyone else, and they should be able to live their lives free of harassment. But nobody has a right to participate in high-level sports or go to the Olympics. Does it suck to want to compete in, say, D1 swimming while living your authentic life as a trans woman and be told you can't swim on the women's team? I'm sure it does, and I'm sympathetic to those feelings of frustration and disappointment. It also sucked when my child with special needs had few options for group activities because nobody wanted to deal with their issues.

    I wonder, if we attempt to reinforce the concepts of sex vs. gender, would that help? Biological sex refers to the set of chromosomes you were born with -- XX, XY, or in some cases (such as Caster Semenya), XYY or XO. Gender is a social construct: Are you a man or a woman? Neither? Both? Unsure? You can exercise choice as to how you live your life and how you identify; transitioning to a gender that does not correspond to your biological sex doesn't change your chromosomal makeup.
    So, if we referred to "males' swimming" and "females' swimming," would that help a little? Maybe?
    A lot interesting points here. One of them is "sex vs. gender." I feel like it's kind of an unfortunate quirk of the English language that sex refers both to male/female and intercourse. People don't like to use the word (adults become six-year-olds scared to use a "dirty" word...) so they use "gender" in its place. "Gender reveals" should be "Sex reveals." It leads to inaccurate use of "gender" and does cause some confusion.

    I hate this issue because it's often used as the gateway to all things anti-trans.  (General talk about the issues and then..."what about sports.") I also want everyone to be able to compete and we're not going to have a TransNBA alongside the WNBA and NBA. And we're not going to have a third gender sex in the Olympics. And while most people, regardless sex / gender, will never be able to compete at such high levels, youth and school sports are prevalent in the lives of most young people. And it's not fair in many sports for a genetic male to compete with genetic females. Sure, sometimes I miss the days when we'd say "life isn't always fair" but now we're talking about potential safety concerns, as well. So I begrudgingly understand the angle on this one. That all said, I hate the argumentative doors this opens and I fear a future where participants in girls sports have to be examined by the Dr. Nassers of the world to be "certified female."
    Agreed.  I believe the key to all of this starts with education.  I'm 40... and this is still confusing to me. lol  But through work I was able to access a lot of information about the subject and I learned a great deal. Information about this stuff alone really opened my eyes to things I had no idea about and did change my opinion on it. 

    Next step ideally for me would be to meet and talk with some Trans folks to get an even better understanding of them biologically, spiritually, and socially. 

    Ultimately.... folks who have passionate opinions about subjects they really don't know much about is causing a lot of discourse and sometimes violence and harassment. 
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