Keeping Men out of Women's Sports

mace1229

Go Beavers said:

smile6680 said:

Go Beavers said:

smile6680 said:

I think a lot of people are overthinking the issue. 

1. Is it a good idea for safety reasons. My opinion is it's a real concern

2. In non contact sports is it fair to biological females and or trans people. This can be debated. 

There’s a lot of high school girls in wrestling who compete against boys. So maybe more thinking on the issue is a good thing. 

Wrestling is an interesting contact support. It's controlled contact and by weight. 

We had a female champion last year for one of our state weight class. It was good to see. 

I think the discussion is whether (biological) boys should be competing in female sports. I don't think most people have an issue with girls/parents choosing to sign up to compete against boys if they have the ability. 

That’s the discussion, which also includes adults. Point being it can be a pretty complicated situation due to the fact that both gender and sex isn’t always a black and white situation. You now have trans men, in theory based on the EO, who have the strength of a male athlete being told they have to compete against women. 

I haven't opened this thread in a while, so I know I'm late to the discussion. 
But there is a huge difference between a female choosing to play in a male sport/team, and a biological male choosing to play in a female sport. No one cares if you decide to "play up." There are 8th graders who have played at a high school team because they are very competitive and their skill fits. I've never heard of a high schooler playing down with middle school though. 
And I keep hearing the debate of "who's going to check?" I really don't know why people are still asking that. As already mentioned, many schools require a physical before playing. Any doctor who can't check a box that says male or female from a routine physical is not a real doctor and should be arrested immediately. It's really a non-issue. 

Go Beavers

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

smile6680 said:

Go Beavers said:

smile6680 said:

I think a lot of people are overthinking the issue. 

1. Is it a good idea for safety reasons. My opinion is it's a real concern

2. In non contact sports is it fair to biological females and or trans people. This can be debated. 

There’s a lot of high school girls in wrestling who compete against boys. So maybe more thinking on the issue is a good thing. 

Wrestling is an interesting contact support. It's controlled contact and by weight. 

We had a female champion last year for one of our state weight class. It was good to see. 

I think the discussion is whether (biological) boys should be competing in female sports. I don't think most people have an issue with girls/parents choosing to sign up to compete against boys if they have the ability. 

That’s the discussion, which also includes adults. Point being it can be a pretty complicated situation due to the fact that both gender and sex isn’t always a black and white situation. You now have trans men, in theory based on the EO, who have the strength of a male athlete being told they have to compete against women. 

I haven't opened this thread in a while, so I know I'm late to the discussion. 
But there is a huge difference between a female choosing to play in a male sport/team, and a biological male choosing to play in a female sport. No one cares if you decide to "play up." There are 8th graders who have played at a high school team because they are very competitive and their skill fits. I've never heard of a high schooler playing down with middle school though. 
And I keep hearing the debate of "who's going to check?" I really don't know why people are still asking that. As already mentioned, many schools require a physical before playing. Any doctor who can't check a box that says male or female from a routine physical is not a real doctor and should be arrested immediately. It's really a non-issue. 

It’s the opposite of non-issue when you start getting into nuanced situations as well as how the government wants to define male and female. If it just comes down to penis/no penis, how about republicans put that into the legislation? 

mace1229

Go Beavers said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

smile6680 said:

Go Beavers said:

smile6680 said:

I think a lot of people are overthinking the issue. 

1. Is it a good idea for safety reasons. My opinion is it's a real concern

2. In non contact sports is it fair to biological females and or trans people. This can be debated. 

There’s a lot of high school girls in wrestling who compete against boys. So maybe more thinking on the issue is a good thing. 

Wrestling is an interesting contact support. It's controlled contact and by weight. 

We had a female champion last year for one of our state weight class. It was good to see. 

I think the discussion is whether (biological) boys should be competing in female sports. I don't think most people have an issue with girls/parents choosing to sign up to compete against boys if they have the ability. 

That’s the discussion, which also includes adults. Point being it can be a pretty complicated situation due to the fact that both gender and sex isn’t always a black and white situation. You now have trans men, in theory based on the EO, who have the strength of a male athlete being told they have to compete against women. 

I haven't opened this thread in a while, so I know I'm late to the discussion. 
But there is a huge difference between a female choosing to play in a male sport/team, and a biological male choosing to play in a female sport. No one cares if you decide to "play up." There are 8th graders who have played at a high school team because they are very competitive and their skill fits. I've never heard of a high schooler playing down with middle school though. 
And I keep hearing the debate of "who's going to check?" I really don't know why people are still asking that. As already mentioned, many schools require a physical before playing. Any doctor who can't check a box that says male or female from a routine physical is not a real doctor and should be arrested immediately. It's really a non-issue. 

It’s the opposite of non-issue when you start getting into nuanced situations as well as how the government wants to define male and female. If it just comes down to penis/no penis, how about republicans put that into the legislation? 

But is there any confusion as to what a biological male and female are? The definition is not the issue, everyone understands what a biological male is, and everyone knows the issue is with biological males in female sports. 
No matter if you define it as chromosomes or phenotype, it's going to be the same result. 
And for the rare disorders that affect chromosomes or something, they can stipulate they align with whatever sex most closely resembles their testosterone levels or whatever is deemed appropriate by people with more knowledge in the area than me. My point is, it shouldn't be that difficult to enforce a no (biological) males in females sports ruling. There's no need for coaches or admin to check themselves or any other nonsense, kids go to the doctor and get physicals, many schools require it to play. It's not a big deal. 

Go Beavers

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

smile6680 said:

Go Beavers said:

smile6680 said:

I think a lot of people are overthinking the issue. 

1. Is it a good idea for safety reasons. My opinion is it's a real concern

2. In non contact sports is it fair to biological females and or trans people. This can be debated. 

There’s a lot of high school girls in wrestling who compete against boys. So maybe more thinking on the issue is a good thing. 

Wrestling is an interesting contact support. It's controlled contact and by weight. 

We had a female champion last year for one of our state weight class. It was good to see. 

I think the discussion is whether (biological) boys should be competing in female sports. I don't think most people have an issue with girls/parents choosing to sign up to compete against boys if they have the ability. 

That’s the discussion, which also includes adults. Point being it can be a pretty complicated situation due to the fact that both gender and sex isn’t always a black and white situation. You now have trans men, in theory based on the EO, who have the strength of a male athlete being told they have to compete against women. 

I haven't opened this thread in a while, so I know I'm late to the discussion. 
But there is a huge difference between a female choosing to play in a male sport/team, and a biological male choosing to play in a female sport. No one cares if you decide to "play up." There are 8th graders who have played at a high school team because they are very competitive and their skill fits. I've never heard of a high schooler playing down with middle school though. 
And I keep hearing the debate of "who's going to check?" I really don't know why people are still asking that. As already mentioned, many schools require a physical before playing. Any doctor who can't check a box that says male or female from a routine physical is not a real doctor and should be arrested immediately. It's really a non-issue. 

It’s the opposite of non-issue when you start getting into nuanced situations as well as how the government wants to define male and female. If it just comes down to penis/no penis, how about republicans put that into the legislation? 

But is there any confusion as to what a biological male and female are? The definition is not the issue, everyone understands what a biological male is, and everyone knows the issue is with biological males in female sports. 
No matter if you define it as chromosomes or phenotype, it's going to be the same result. 
And for the rare disorders that affect chromosomes or something, they can stipulate they align with whatever sex most closely resembles their testosterone levels or whatever is deemed appropriate by people with more knowledge in the area than me. My point is, it shouldn't be that difficult to enforce a no (biological) males in females sports ruling. There's no need for coaches or admin to check themselves or any other nonsense, kids go to the doctor and get physicals, many schools require it to play. It's not a big deal. 

Yes, there can be confusion based on how people try to define it. You can have intersexed people, as well as chromosomes that don’t align with genitals. You’re even pointing out chromosomes vs hormones. The people with more knowledge and who should be making the decisions are the sports governing bodies and not politicians enamored with culture war crap who’s goal is target marginalized groups and not to “protect women and girls”. 

cincybearcat

So - my daughter is a dancer, has been part of competitive dance teams for 13 years now....And while it isn't related to the topic fully, it is similar and irritates the hell out of me.  For solos, there were probably 30 girls completing and 4 boys.  They do not separate them by sex/gender/whatever)....though they do separate by age for overall awards.  Every damn competition, boys score the highest.  Last weekend top 3 all boys and so was #6.  Its just dumb, they are so different physically and do different things.  

Additionally over the years as I had noticed boys scoring higher and also group routines that included boys scoring higher I did some digging and sure enough it wasn't just my perception, it seems to be a lot of peoples, and sometimes judges admit it.

Get this, boys don't have enough of an advantage over girls that judges would artificially give them higher scores because there are fewer boys in dance and they want them to continue so boost their egos.  WTF.  

Anyhow - this issue is so clear to me I honestly do not understand the other perspective.  

Gern Blansten

cincybearcat said:

So - my daughter is a dancer, has been part of competitive dance teams for 13 years now....And while it isn't related to the topic fully, it is similar and irritates the hell out of me.  For solos, there were probably 30 girls completing and 4 boys.  They do not separate them by sex/gender/whatever)....though they do separate by age for overall awards.  Every damn competition, boys score the highest.  Last weekend top 3 all boys and so was #6.  Its just dumb, they are so different physically and do different things.  

Additionally over the years as I had noticed boys scoring higher and also group routines that included boys scoring higher I did some digging and sure enough it wasn't just my perception, it seems to be a lot of peoples, and sometimes judges admit it.

Get this, boys don't have enough of an advantage over girls that judges would artificially give them higher scores because there are fewer boys in dance and they want them to continue so boost their egos.  WTF.  

Anyhow - this issue is so clear to me I honestly do not understand the other perspective.  

Yeah I'm on your side there. Should be completely separate. Let the 4 compete amongst themselves.

mace1229

Go Beavers said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

smile6680 said:

Go Beavers said:

smile6680 said:

I think a lot of people are overthinking the issue. 

1. Is it a good idea for safety reasons. My opinion is it's a real concern

2. In non contact sports is it fair to biological females and or trans people. This can be debated. 

There’s a lot of high school girls in wrestling who compete against boys. So maybe more thinking on the issue is a good thing. 

Wrestling is an interesting contact support. It's controlled contact and by weight. 

We had a female champion last year for one of our state weight class. It was good to see. 

I think the discussion is whether (biological) boys should be competing in female sports. I don't think most people have an issue with girls/parents choosing to sign up to compete against boys if they have the ability. 

That’s the discussion, which also includes adults. Point being it can be a pretty complicated situation due to the fact that both gender and sex isn’t always a black and white situation. You now have trans men, in theory based on the EO, who have the strength of a male athlete being told they have to compete against women. 

I haven't opened this thread in a while, so I know I'm late to the discussion. 
But there is a huge difference between a female choosing to play in a male sport/team, and a biological male choosing to play in a female sport. No one cares if you decide to "play up." There are 8th graders who have played at a high school team because they are very competitive and their skill fits. I've never heard of a high schooler playing down with middle school though. 
And I keep hearing the debate of "who's going to check?" I really don't know why people are still asking that. As already mentioned, many schools require a physical before playing. Any doctor who can't check a box that says male or female from a routine physical is not a real doctor and should be arrested immediately. It's really a non-issue. 

It’s the opposite of non-issue when you start getting into nuanced situations as well as how the government wants to define male and female. If it just comes down to penis/no penis, how about republicans put that into the legislation? 

But is there any confusion as to what a biological male and female are? The definition is not the issue, everyone understands what a biological male is, and everyone knows the issue is with biological males in female sports. 
No matter if you define it as chromosomes or phenotype, it's going to be the same result. 
And for the rare disorders that affect chromosomes or something, they can stipulate they align with whatever sex most closely resembles their testosterone levels or whatever is deemed appropriate by people with more knowledge in the area than me. My point is, it shouldn't be that difficult to enforce a no (biological) males in females sports ruling. There's no need for coaches or admin to check themselves or any other nonsense, kids go to the doctor and get physicals, many schools require it to play. It's not a big deal. 

Yes, there can be confusion based on how people try to define it. You can have intersexed people, as well as chromosomes that don’t align with genitals. You’re even pointing out chromosomes vs hormones. The people with more knowledge and who should be making the decisions are the sports governing bodies and not politicians enamored with culture war crap who’s goal is target marginalized groups and not to “protect women and girls”. 

I said define it by phenotype or genotype, and only If there is a known disorder, like Swyer Syndrome  (which I only became aware of due to the summer olympics and the boxer) or intersexed people then there can be a set of guidelines to be fair to those individuals and to everyone else. 
And again, my original response was agreeing with those who say identifying it will not be up to coaches or the athletic dept, it's nonsense to think it would be. Athletes get physicals all the time by doctors outside of the school in order to play sports. Or as someone else pointed out, a birth certificate. Demonstrating your sex isn't going to. a big deal, there are many ways to do it without pulling your pants down in front of the PE teacher, which some seem to think is the only way based on their reaction. 

HughFreakingDillon

cincybearcat said:

So - my daughter is a dancer, has been part of competitive dance teams for 13 years now....And while it isn't related to the topic fully, it is similar and irritates the hell out of me.  For solos, there were probably 30 girls completing and 4 boys.  They do not separate them by sex/gender/whatever)....though they do separate by age for overall awards.  Every damn competition, boys score the highest.  Last weekend top 3 all boys and so was #6.  Its just dumb, they are so different physically and do different things.  

Additionally over the years as I had noticed boys scoring higher and also group routines that included boys scoring higher I did some digging and sure enough it wasn't just my perception, it seems to be a lot of peoples, and sometimes judges admit it.

Get this, boys don't have enough of an advantage over girls that judges would artificially give them higher scores because there are fewer boys in dance and they want them to continue so boost their egos.  WTF.  

Anyhow - this issue is so clear to me I honestly do not understand the other perspective.  

My daughter dances, and in many of her group routines, they have the token boy who is able to do all these flips and tricks and shit that they use in order to get higher scores. The girls can do the same stuff, but because he’s male, the judges (and the lemmings in the audience) go nuts only because he has nuts. Seems so odd to me, I feel like I’m the only one that sees it for the cheap pop that it is, but seasoned judges even lap it up. 

However, in the judges’ case, I honestly think it’s more about more diverse recruitment so they can double the sports’ exposure and enrollment. 

shadowcast

Post deleted. See the Posting Guidelines

shadowcast

It's fake to suggest that it is a big issue that affects very many people. A delicate issue for sure...but so rare it shouldn't be featured in political ads.

It all starts somewhere. Next thing you know Men dressed up as woman will want to go into girls bathrooms.

shadowcast

lastexitlondon said:

I played football.  The real knid with the feet. For many years if I played against a female I would hurt them badly by my very size and bullishness. It's a different game . That's why there is womens football. Equal.
Mens equal .
There is no more to say on it.

Thank you!!! Common Sense has entered the chat. 

Bentleyspop

shadowcast said:

It's fake to suggest that it is a big issue that affects very many people. A delicate issue for sure...but so rare it shouldn't be featured in political ads.

It all starts somewhere. Next thing you know Men dressed up as woman will want to go into girls bathrooms.

https://youtu.be/WqDlVtgeYnk?si=hGRPXCNxbtT2ga9a

Sea

Thread re-opened. Please remember to discuss the topic, not the people discussing the topic.  

Please respect topic integrity by not derailing discussions. Gossip, not ok. Please don't do it. Discuss, disagree and debate politely....Please see the Posting Guidelines. Thank you. https://community.pearljam.com/discussion/228366/forum-posting-guidelines

cincybearcat

https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/06/politics/newsom-trans-athletes-womens-sports/index.html

Newsom knows what's up. 

Go Beavers

And what he’s saying aligns with a large majority of dems. 

Gern Blansten

I saw someone reporting on this that Newsom is "breaking from Democrats"....he's really not. I think the issue has been blown up by the magats.

cincybearcat

And it's good that he is just coming out and saying it...the Dems have blown the communication on the issue, as Newsom even says about the Harris campaign.  This is a good sign for a guy that might run for president.  

cincybearcat

Go Beavers said:

And what he’s saying aligns with a large majority of dems. 

Why did another Dem get backlash for their comment by the party and have staff quit then though?

Go Beavers

cincybearcat said:

Go Beavers said:

And what he’s saying aligns with a large majority of dems. 

Why did another Dem get backlash for their comment by the party and have staff quit then though?

Is that a leading question? I don’t know. Tell
me what the backlash was specifically. 

cincybearcat

Go Beavers said:

cincybearcat said:

Go Beavers said:

And what he’s saying aligns with a large majority of dems. 

Why did another Dem get backlash for their comment by the party and have staff quit then though?

Is that a leading question? I don’t know. Tell
me what the backlash was specifically. 

It was in the article:

"Other Democrats have gotten pushback for comments similar to Newsom’s. Democratic Rep. Seth Moulton of Massachusetts has been vocal about transgender policies and told The New York Times in November that identity politics, particularly around transgender rights, hurt Democrats in the election, saying, “I have two little girls. I don’t want them getting run over on a playing field by a male or formerly male athlete. But as a Democrat, I’m supposed to be afraid to say that.”

Moulton got criticism from Democrats for his comments, and his campaign manager, Matt Chilliak, resigned in response to the remarks, according to The Boston Globe."

Go Beavers

cincybearcat said:

Go Beavers said:

cincybearcat said:

Go Beavers said:

And what he’s saying aligns with a large majority of dems. 

Why did another Dem get backlash for their comment by the party and have staff quit then though?

Is that a leading question? I don’t know. Tell
me what the backlash was specifically. 

It was in the article:

"Other Democrats have gotten pushback for comments similar to Newsom’s. Democratic Rep. Seth Moulton of Massachusetts has been vocal about transgender policies and told The New York Times in November that identity politics, particularly around transgender rights, hurt Democrats in the election, saying, “I have two little girls. I don’t want them getting run over on a playing field by a male or formerly male athlete. But as a Democrat, I’m supposed to be afraid to say that.”

Moulton got criticism from Democrats for his comments, and his campaign manager, Matt Chilliak, resigned in response to the remarks, according to The Boston Globe."

I don’t know what your angle is really. Having people disagree within the group I see as a strength. Tge other option is the forced conformity and compliance we have with republicans. Newsom’s quote from the article highlights the complexity of the issue:

Newsom addressed both sides of the issue, saying, “You know that these poor people are more likely to commit suicide, have anxiety and depression, and the way that people talk down to vulnerable communities is an issue that I have a hard time with as well. So both things I can hold in my hand.”

Gern Blansten

cincybearcat said:

Go Beavers said:

cincybearcat said:

Go Beavers said:

And what he’s saying aligns with a large majority of dems. 

Why did another Dem get backlash for their comment by the party and have staff quit then though?

Is that a leading question? I don’t know. Tell
me what the backlash was specifically. 

It was in the article:

"Other Democrats have gotten pushback for comments similar to Newsom’s. Democratic Rep. Seth Moulton of Massachusetts has been vocal about transgender policies and told The New York Times in November that identity politics, particularly around transgender rights, hurt Democrats in the election, saying, “I have two little girls. I don’t want them getting run over on a playing field by a male or formerly male athlete. But as a Democrat, I’m supposed to be afraid to say that.”

Moulton got criticism from Democrats for his comments, and his campaign manager, Matt Chilliak, resigned in response to the remarks, according to The Boston Globe."

Dems are so bad at messaging. You can support the LGBTQ+ community without favoring allowing men to play in women's sports and vice versa. 

Similar to the abortion issue. The right brands the dems as loving abortions rather than just wanting that to be a choice between a woman and her doctor.

DE4173

The article posted states that he, "break[s] from most Democrats’ position on the topic."

I know he's a governor, and don't know the exact number of all Democrats that are for or against.

I do know how the Senate voted, however:

OnWis97

What was in the bill? Was there something beyond the title?

DE4173

Excellent question! Let me look (for a link). 😉

DE4173

OnWis97 said:

What was in the bill? Was there something beyond the title?

https://legiscan.com/US/bill/SB9/2025

https://cbsaustin.com/news/nation-world/bill-to-ban-male-competition-in-womens-sports-fails-to-proceed-in-senate

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/119/s9/studyguide

https://legiscan.com/US/text/SB9/id/3049354

https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-bill/9/all-actions

https://fastdemocracy.com/bill-search/us/119/bills/USB00089663/

https://www.dailywire.com/news/senate-dems-block-bill-to-protect-womens-sports

https://www.quiverquant.com/bills/119/s-9

Ledbetterman10

DE4173 said:

The article posted states that he, "break[s] from most Democrats’ position on the topic."

I know he's a governor, and don't know the exact number of all Democrats that are for or against.

I do know how the Senate voted, however:

And every house democrat voted against it. Every single one. The vote went right down party lines. 218-206. 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2025/01/14/politics/house-vote-ban-transgender-athletes-womens-sports

Go Beavers

Why is the government in a better position to manage it than the agency/association that controls the sport? We also know the legislation written by republicans is poorly done. 

DE4173

Ledbetterman10 said:

DE4173 said:

The article posted states that he, "break[s] from most Democrats’ position on the topic."

I know he's a governor, and don't know the exact number of all Democrats that are for or against.

I do know how the Senate voted, however:

And every house democrat voted against it. Every single one. The vote went right down party lines. 218-206. 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2025/01/14/politics/house-vote-ban-transgender-athletes-womens-sports

The article you posted has:

The House vote was 218 to 206 with two Democrats voting in favor and one Democrat voting “present.” Reps. Vicente Gonzalez and Henry Cuellar of Texas were the two Democrats who voted for the bill and Rep. Don Davis of North Carolina was the present vote.

smile6680

Go Beavers said:

cincybearcat said:

Go Beavers said:

cincybearcat said:

Go Beavers said:

And what he’s saying aligns with a large majority of dems. 

Why did another Dem get backlash for their comment by the party and have staff quit then though?

Is that a leading question? I don’t know. Tell
me what the backlash was specifically. 

It was in the article:

"Other Democrats have gotten pushback for comments similar to Newsom’s. Democratic Rep. Seth Moulton of Massachusetts has been vocal about transgender policies and told The New York Times in November that identity politics, particularly around transgender rights, hurt Democrats in the election, saying, “I have two little girls. I don’t want them getting run over on a playing field by a male or formerly male athlete. But as a Democrat, I’m supposed to be afraid to say that.”

Moulton got criticism from Democrats for his comments, and his campaign manager, Matt Chilliak, resigned in response to the remarks, according to The Boston Globe."

I don’t know what your angle is really. Having people disagree within the group I see as a strength. Tge other option is the forced conformity and compliance we have with republicans. Newsom’s quote from the article highlights the complexity of the issue:

Newsom addressed both sides of the issue, saying, “You know that these poor people are more likely to commit suicide, have anxiety and depression, and the way that people talk down to vulnerable communities is an issue that I have a hard time with as well. So both things I can hold in my hand.”

I completely agree with your point about disagreement within party's as a good thing. People need to start listening to opinions that are different then theirs. 

We have a pretty decent congressman in the state I live in. He won't hesitate to cross party lines if he thinks a bill isn't good for the people he represents.