Native Hawaiians call for sovereignty

brianlux

Apparently this thread is semi-thriving by popular demand.   Have at it!

HughFreakingDillon

I wonder if they'd be able to financially sustain themselves not being part of the US. 

OnWis97

I assume Tulski will be all over this. Maybe even try to get a...um...different country to take it on.

tempo_n_groove

For years Hawaii people have wanted the mainlanders to leave.  My family has been on and off that island for 25 years so at least that long.

There is no way that the nation of Hawaii could repay the US for all the infrastructure it has in place and buy back all the land that the hotels and people own.

Could they afford to sustain themselves?  Barbados has done an OK job since getting their independence but they didn't have to pay back anyone.

If Hawaii was to just take everything back over without paying I'm sure it would piss a bunch of people off and I for one would never visit there.

brianlux

I am responsible for this mess.  I blame no one but myself.  Please delete, thanks.

HughFreakingDillon

tempo_n_groove said:

For years Hawaii people have wanted the mainlanders to leave.  My family has been on and off that island for 25 years so at least that long.

There is no way that the nation of Hawaii could repay the US for all the infrastructure it has in place and buy back all the land that the hotels and people own.

Could they afford to sustain themselves?  Barbados has done an OK job since getting their independence but they didn't have to pay back anyone.

If Hawaii was to just take everything back over without paying I'm sure it would piss a bunch of people off and I for one would never visit there.

so if someone steals my house, then does renovations to it, and then I get it back, do I owe the stealer for the work he did?

I don't think so. 

brianlux

I am responsible for this mess.  I blame no one but myself.  Please delete, thanks.

tempo_n_groove

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

For years Hawaii people have wanted the mainlanders to leave.  My family has been on and off that island for 25 years so at least that long.

There is no way that the nation of Hawaii could repay the US for all the infrastructure it has in place and buy back all the land that the hotels and people own.

Could they afford to sustain themselves?  Barbados has done an OK job since getting their independence but they didn't have to pay back anyone.

If Hawaii was to just take everything back over without paying I'm sure it would piss a bunch of people off and I for one would never visit there.

so if someone steals my house, then does renovations to it, and then I get it back, do I owe the stealer for the work he did?

I don't think so. 

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

For years Hawaii people have wanted the mainlanders to leave.  My family has been on and off that island for 25 years so at least that long.

There is no way that the nation of Hawaii could repay the US for all the infrastructure it has in place and buy back all the land that the hotels and people own.

Could they afford to sustain themselves?  Barbados has done an OK job since getting their independence but they didn't have to pay back anyone.

If Hawaii was to just take everything back over without paying I'm sure it would piss a bunch of people off and I for one would never visit there.

so if someone steals my house, then does renovations to it, and then I get it back, do I owe the stealer for the work he did?

I don't think so. 

Agreed! 
I think proper reparations are in order and long overdue.

I have to think more about this.  I'ts not going to go the way they'd like it, the Hawaiian people that is.  

Now you have people that have lived there forever and consider themselves islanders.  What do you do with them?

brianlux

I am responsible for this mess.  I blame no one but myself.  Please delete, thanks.

HughFreakingDillon

tempo_n_groove said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

For years Hawaii people have wanted the mainlanders to leave.  My family has been on and off that island for 25 years so at least that long.

There is no way that the nation of Hawaii could repay the US for all the infrastructure it has in place and buy back all the land that the hotels and people own.

Could they afford to sustain themselves?  Barbados has done an OK job since getting their independence but they didn't have to pay back anyone.

If Hawaii was to just take everything back over without paying I'm sure it would piss a bunch of people off and I for one would never visit there.

so if someone steals my house, then does renovations to it, and then I get it back, do I owe the stealer for the work he did?

I don't think so. 

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

For years Hawaii people have wanted the mainlanders to leave.  My family has been on and off that island for 25 years so at least that long.

There is no way that the nation of Hawaii could repay the US for all the infrastructure it has in place and buy back all the land that the hotels and people own.

Could they afford to sustain themselves?  Barbados has done an OK job since getting their independence but they didn't have to pay back anyone.

If Hawaii was to just take everything back over without paying I'm sure it would piss a bunch of people off and I for one would never visit there.

so if someone steals my house, then does renovations to it, and then I get it back, do I owe the stealer for the work he did?

I don't think so. 

Agreed! 
I think proper reparations are in order and long overdue.

I have to think more about this.  I'ts not going to go the way they'd like it, the Hawaiian people that is.  

Now you have people that have lived there forever and consider themselves islanders.  What do you do with them?

you don't do anything with them. they can stay if they wish. Canada didn't kick out all those of European descent whose ancestors tried to erase the Indigenous culture. And you do something similar that we're doing here; create a commission committed to truth and reconciliation to educate people on what colonization has done to the Hawai'ian culture. 

tempo_n_groove

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

For years Hawaii people have wanted the mainlanders to leave.  My family has been on and off that island for 25 years so at least that long.

There is no way that the nation of Hawaii could repay the US for all the infrastructure it has in place and buy back all the land that the hotels and people own.

Could they afford to sustain themselves?  Barbados has done an OK job since getting their independence but they didn't have to pay back anyone.

If Hawaii was to just take everything back over without paying I'm sure it would piss a bunch of people off and I for one would never visit there.

so if someone steals my house, then does renovations to it, and then I get it back, do I owe the stealer for the work he did?

I don't think so. 

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

For years Hawaii people have wanted the mainlanders to leave.  My family has been on and off that island for 25 years so at least that long.

There is no way that the nation of Hawaii could repay the US for all the infrastructure it has in place and buy back all the land that the hotels and people own.

Could they afford to sustain themselves?  Barbados has done an OK job since getting their independence but they didn't have to pay back anyone.

If Hawaii was to just take everything back over without paying I'm sure it would piss a bunch of people off and I for one would never visit there.

so if someone steals my house, then does renovations to it, and then I get it back, do I owe the stealer for the work he did?

I don't think so. 

Agreed! 
I think proper reparations are in order and long overdue.

I have to think more about this.  I'ts not going to go the way they'd like it, the Hawaiian people that is.  

Now you have people that have lived there forever and consider themselves islanders.  What do you do with them?

you don't do anything with them. they can stay if they wish. Canada didn't kick out all those of European descent whose ancestors tried to erase the Indigenous culture. And you do something similar that we're doing here; create a commission committed to truth and reconciliation to educate people on what colonization has done to the Hawai'ian culture. 

brianlux said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

For years Hawaii people have wanted the mainlanders to leave.  My family has been on and off that island for 25 years so at least that long.

There is no way that the nation of Hawaii could repay the US for all the infrastructure it has in place and buy back all the land that the hotels and people own.

Could they afford to sustain themselves?  Barbados has done an OK job since getting their independence but they didn't have to pay back anyone.

If Hawaii was to just take everything back over without paying I'm sure it would piss a bunch of people off and I for one would never visit there.

so if someone steals my house, then does renovations to it, and then I get it back, do I owe the stealer for the work he did?

I don't think so. 

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

For years Hawaii people have wanted the mainlanders to leave.  My family has been on and off that island for 25 years so at least that long.

There is no way that the nation of Hawaii could repay the US for all the infrastructure it has in place and buy back all the land that the hotels and people own.

Could they afford to sustain themselves?  Barbados has done an OK job since getting their independence but they didn't have to pay back anyone.

If Hawaii was to just take everything back over without paying I'm sure it would piss a bunch of people off and I for one would never visit there.

so if someone steals my house, then does renovations to it, and then I get it back, do I owe the stealer for the work he did?

I don't think so. 

Agreed! 
I think proper reparations are in order and long overdue.

I have to think more about this.  I'ts not going to go the way they'd like it, the Hawaiian people that is.  

Now you have people that have lived there forever and consider themselves islanders.  What do you do with them?

Just kidding, of course!

Good question.  Maybe give them a choice of moving or changing citizenship? 

So do they get to keep their land?

What about people that may have bought land oh 5 years ago?  20 years ago?  Do you just take it from them?

Hawaii isn’t that big.  There isn’t all this property to be doled out.

So if I am understanding this right Hugh, just teach people what happened?  That’s it?

brianlux

I am responsible for this mess.  I blame no one but myself.  Please delete, thanks.

PJ_Soul

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I wonder if they'd be able to financially sustain themselves not being part of the US. 

I think if they had good leadership and did it right, they would actually flourish.  They would be able to have control over tourism and keep it sustainable.  They would be able to maintain control over profits instead of seeing corporations that are based outside their limits rake in the money.  The potential to prosper and protect the islands could be tremendous.

I think that is extremely optimistic of you Brian! I don't think those people are any less susceptible to corruption than anyone else, and I can't say I have faith in any politicians put in such a position not to take advantage. I think at this point "paradise" is not possible anywhere.

brianlux

I am responsible for this mess.  I blame no one but myself.  Please delete, thanks.

HughFreakingDillon

tempo_n_groove said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

For years Hawaii people have wanted the mainlanders to leave.  My family has been on and off that island for 25 years so at least that long.

There is no way that the nation of Hawaii could repay the US for all the infrastructure it has in place and buy back all the land that the hotels and people own.

Could they afford to sustain themselves?  Barbados has done an OK job since getting their independence but they didn't have to pay back anyone.

If Hawaii was to just take everything back over without paying I'm sure it would piss a bunch of people off and I for one would never visit there.

so if someone steals my house, then does renovations to it, and then I get it back, do I owe the stealer for the work he did?

I don't think so. 

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

For years Hawaii people have wanted the mainlanders to leave.  My family has been on and off that island for 25 years so at least that long.

There is no way that the nation of Hawaii could repay the US for all the infrastructure it has in place and buy back all the land that the hotels and people own.

Could they afford to sustain themselves?  Barbados has done an OK job since getting their independence but they didn't have to pay back anyone.

If Hawaii was to just take everything back over without paying I'm sure it would piss a bunch of people off and I for one would never visit there.

so if someone steals my house, then does renovations to it, and then I get it back, do I owe the stealer for the work he did?

I don't think so. 

Agreed! 
I think proper reparations are in order and long overdue.

I have to think more about this.  I'ts not going to go the way they'd like it, the Hawaiian people that is.  

Now you have people that have lived there forever and consider themselves islanders.  What do you do with them?

you don't do anything with them. they can stay if they wish. Canada didn't kick out all those of European descent whose ancestors tried to erase the Indigenous culture. And you do something similar that we're doing here; create a commission committed to truth and reconciliation to educate people on what colonization has done to the Hawai'ian culture. 

brianlux said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

For years Hawaii people have wanted the mainlanders to leave.  My family has been on and off that island for 25 years so at least that long.

There is no way that the nation of Hawaii could repay the US for all the infrastructure it has in place and buy back all the land that the hotels and people own.

Could they afford to sustain themselves?  Barbados has done an OK job since getting their independence but they didn't have to pay back anyone.

If Hawaii was to just take everything back over without paying I'm sure it would piss a bunch of people off and I for one would never visit there.

so if someone steals my house, then does renovations to it, and then I get it back, do I owe the stealer for the work he did?

I don't think so. 

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

For years Hawaii people have wanted the mainlanders to leave.  My family has been on and off that island for 25 years so at least that long.

There is no way that the nation of Hawaii could repay the US for all the infrastructure it has in place and buy back all the land that the hotels and people own.

Could they afford to sustain themselves?  Barbados has done an OK job since getting their independence but they didn't have to pay back anyone.

If Hawaii was to just take everything back over without paying I'm sure it would piss a bunch of people off and I for one would never visit there.

so if someone steals my house, then does renovations to it, and then I get it back, do I owe the stealer for the work he did?

I don't think so. 

Agreed! 
I think proper reparations are in order and long overdue.

I have to think more about this.  I'ts not going to go the way they'd like it, the Hawaiian people that is.  

Now you have people that have lived there forever and consider themselves islanders.  What do you do with them?

Just kidding, of course!

Good question.  Maybe give them a choice of moving or changing citizenship? 

So do they get to keep their land?

What about people that may have bought land oh 5 years ago?  20 years ago?  Do you just take it from them?

Hawaii isn’t that big.  There isn’t all this property to be doled out.

So if I am understanding this right Hugh, just teach people what happened?  That’s it?

Economic reparations 

shecky

brianlux

shecky said:

Let's look at the whole story.  Here's the rest of the article...

“Less than half of the Native Hawaiian alone or in any combination population lived in Hawaii (46.7%) in 2020, down from 55.0% in 2010,” the report says. That means 53%, or about 360,000, of Native Hawaiians are living in other states.

Next to Hawaii, California holds the second-largest population of Native Hawaiians at 14%, followed by Washington at 4.6%, Nevada at 3.9% and Texas at 3.4%. Among those four continental states, the population grew the most in Texas, up from 2.5% in 2010, but actually decreased in California, down from 14.2%.

Hawaii’s high cost of living and affordable housing crisis are two of the main reasons why people leave the islands. “Our cost of living is the highest in the country at nearly twice the national average,” Hawaii Gov. Josh Green said in his January State of the State address. 

Native Hawaiian residents aren’t the only ones leaving Hawaii. The state’s population overall has been gradually decreasing for the past seven years. Last year, Hawaii’s statewide population decreased by 1%, or 15,077 people.

************************************************

What I put in bold both further supports the concept of reestablishing sovereignty of Hawaii to native Hawaiians.  In the past, we ran off indigenous peoples by driving them away by force and genocide.  Too many people today would object to those direct means so now we simply price them out of their native homelands.  Same old story with newer, more subtle tactics.  Pretty sad, definitely shameful.

Spunkie

I agree with you Brian, however, I think it's more than your synopsis. It's not just running people out of their homelands. It is genocide. When Indigenous people are displaced, we lose culture, language, family, community, and connection to the land. To be blunt: Foreign landowners, big and small, like Ed, are killing them.

brianlux

I am responsible for this mess.  I blame no one but myself.  Please delete, thanks.

Spunkie

^ Given the parallelisms between your home ownership and Turtle Island, how do you respond to this?

brianlux

Spunkie

nicknyr15

What the hell did I miss here 

mickeyrat

nicknyr15 said:

What the hell did I miss here 

a question.

mickeyrat

https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1706082968467280255?t=D8Zt9JF-rKFyXSEyvrOmyw&s=19

F Me In The Brain

Nice shirt, Mikey

F Me In The Brain

I don't understand why this thread went sideways, but, to be fair, it looks like things have been deleted

brianlux

nicknyr15 said:

What the hell did I miss here 

It got too personal on my part about some musicians I admire, and then me being a dip shit hypocrite.

I'm good with taking the blame.  Shut the fucker down!

tempo_n_groove

tish said:

I agree with you Brian, however, I think it's more than your synopsis. It's not just running people out of their homelands. It is genocide. When Indigenous people are displaced, we lose culture, language, family, community, and connection to the land. To be blunt: Foreign landowners, big and small, like Ed, are killing them.

This is a great point that I wanted to use in another light but people would lose their minds.

There is a local comedian down there that would joke about the white people coming to visit. He said this "we love visitors but make sure you go back.  No really, leave."  The crowd half laughed because the guy was serious.

My family, whom was part of the problem, moved there to work the golf courses and had to sleep on the beaches, which is legal, for a while until they could get an apartment.

Gern Blansten

IBTL

tempo_n_groove

Gern Blansten said:

IBTL

I don't know why.  It's still worth discussion.