The down side of solar farms

brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,032
edited May 2023 in A Moving Train
I have argued here against the assumed merits of solar farms in deserts.  My reasons is well supported in this article.  Deserts are not dead lands.  I fully believe we are losing more than we are gaining with these solar farms.


“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













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Comments

  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,586
    I think part of the answer here, is new construction be required to include solar as a means of powering that structure while feeding/selling excess into the grid.

    and allow for incentives to retrofit existing structures. Local company here is selling and installing solar shingles.

    As time goes on, the tech gets better and cheaper.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,032
    mickeyrat said:
    I think part of the answer here, is new construction be required to include solar as a means of powering that structure while feeding/selling excess into the grid.

    and allow for incentives to retrofit existing structures. Local company here is selling and installing solar shingles.

    As time goes on, the tech gets better and cheaper.

    True- earlier versions of solar panels wore out quickly.

    My argument is not that I'm against solar power, but that sacrificing our fragile desert ecosystems is unwise.  Instead of destroying these ecosystems, we could do a lot more to- first and foremost- cut down on energy use, and install solar panels or more roofs.  The buildings have already covered ground, so their roofs are a logical place to install panels.

    It breaks my heart to see our deserts being destroyed.  Note in the article that we are not just destroying habit.  The installation of these massive plants is also creating a great deal of pollution and noise.

    We can do better than this:
    sea of panels

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 15,942
    edited May 2023
    Let me state that I'm not for extinction of animals.  But, if the scientists are right, 4 billion species have gone extinct in the history of the planet (how they know that I have not a clue).  Nature did that including some well timed asteroids and earthquakes.   Not humans (until more recently).  So, to protect humanity or our particular species, this would not be the first time a species of turtle goes extinct (or some other animal).  

    I say this to provide some solace.  Humans are a part of nature and play the role of invasive species well.    
    Post edited by bootlegger10 on
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 40,355
    You can look at it like this too Brian, eventually we will be inhabiting that space with buildings one day.
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,032
    Let me state that I'm not for extinction of animals.  But, if the scientists are right, 4 billion species have gone extinct in the history of the planet (how they know that I have not a clue).  Nature did that including some well timed asteroids and earthquakes.   Not humans (until more recently).  So, to protect humanity or our particular species, this would not be the first time a species of turtle goes extinct (or some other animal).  

    I say this to provide some solace.  Humans are a part of nature and play the role of invasive species well.    
    I cannot see using something random and unplanned like an asteroid or earthquake as an excuse for knowingly destroying nature and killing off so many species.  The other thing to keep in mind is that, by not respecting and living within nature's balances and cycles, we are creating our own premature demise.  We are the first (and probably last) to ever do this.  In that light, I believe we are actually not a part of nature.  We have disassociated our species from nature and we are a menace to the planet.  I find no solace in that.
    You can look at it like this too Brian, eventually we will be inhabiting that space with buildings one day.

    Possibly, my friend, but not sustainably. 

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 15,942
    brianlux said:
    Let me state that I'm not for extinction of animals.  But, if the scientists are right, 4 billion species have gone extinct in the history of the planet (how they know that I have not a clue).  Nature did that including some well timed asteroids and earthquakes.   Not humans (until more recently).  So, to protect humanity or our particular species, this would not be the first time a species of turtle goes extinct (or some other animal).  

    I say this to provide some solace.  Humans are a part of nature and play the role of invasive species well.    
    I cannot see using something random and unplanned like an asteroid or earthquake as an excuse for knowingly destroying nature and killing off so many species.  The other thing to keep in mind is that, by not respecting and living within nature's balances and cycles, we are creating our own premature demise.  We are the first (and probably last) to ever do this.  In that light, I believe we are actually not a part of nature.  We have disassociated our species from nature and we are a menace to the planet.  I find no solace in that.
    You can look at it like this too Brian, eventually we will be inhabiting that space with buildings one day.

    Possibly, my friend, but not sustainably. 

    As long as we aren’t some species put out here by a deity or aliens for an experiment, I think we are absolutely part of nature.  Plenty of invasive species out there that wipe out the ecosystem.  Humans just have a more evolved brain and harm the environment knowingly.  

    Anyway, not meant to derail the thread.  
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,032
    brianlux said:
    Let me state that I'm not for extinction of animals.  But, if the scientists are right, 4 billion species have gone extinct in the history of the planet (how they know that I have not a clue).  Nature did that including some well timed asteroids and earthquakes.   Not humans (until more recently).  So, to protect humanity or our particular species, this would not be the first time a species of turtle goes extinct (or some other animal).  

    I say this to provide some solace.  Humans are a part of nature and play the role of invasive species well.    
    I cannot see using something random and unplanned like an asteroid or earthquake as an excuse for knowingly destroying nature and killing off so many species.  The other thing to keep in mind is that, by not respecting and living within nature's balances and cycles, we are creating our own premature demise.  We are the first (and probably last) to ever do this.  In that light, I believe we are actually not a part of nature.  We have disassociated our species from nature and we are a menace to the planet.  I find no solace in that.
    You can look at it like this too Brian, eventually we will be inhabiting that space with buildings one day.

    Possibly, my friend, but not sustainably. 

    As long as we aren’t some species put out here by a deity or aliens for an experiment, I think we are absolutely part of nature.  Plenty of invasive species out there that wipe out the ecosystem.  Humans just have a more evolved brain and harm the environment knowingly.  

    Anyway, not meant to derail the thread.  

    Not derailed at all, no worries.  I see our discussion about humans and nature as part of a bigger whole that includes discussion about our relationship to nature and how our activities affect the planet.

    I often feel inclined to need to apologize for coming across as a curmudgeon and doom sayer when talking about subjects like this.  I really am sorry about that!  I would be a lot more optimistic if we could just be more honest about how destructive our activities are (me included, of course- I have a computer, I have a car, etc.).  Instead, we pretend to be "green" by building electric cars and massive solar power arrays and so forth, as if those kinds of things are going to save us from our inevitable collision with depleted resources, pollution, and climate change- including global warming and catastrophic weather events that are happening more and more frequently. 

    I'm not saying I'm against efforts to improve the environment.  I'm all for that and have been and advocate for the environment for several decades.  But those efforts simply are not enough.  I probably can't convince anyone of that.  By now, you or anyone else either agree with that or disagree.  If you disagree, I sincerely hope you are correct.  I suppose if I had any sense, I would probably just toss the whole bloody issue in the trash and go party 'til the end of my time.  You may have noticed I already do a lot less talking here about this kind of issue these days...

    ...and more about music, film and the arts because they are great antidotes to despair.  For example, I rocked out big-time on this killer album earlier today (talk about derailing the thread, lol!):

    IMG
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,586

     

    By Sibi Arasu
    Today

    RAICHUR, India (AP) — In the searing heat that often envelops Raichur, an ancient town in southern India, a ceiling fan that spins without interruption brings sweet relief for the newborn babies and their mothers at the Government Maternity Hospital.

    But such respite wasn't always guaranteed in a region where frequent power cuts to India's overmatched electrical grid can last hours. It wasn't until the hospital installed rooftop solar panels a year ago that it could depend on constant electricity that keeps the lights on, patients and staff comfortable and vaccines and medicines safely refrigerated.

    The diesel generator that used to provide emergency backup — spewing planet-warming gases and toxic smoke within breathing distance of newborns every time it was running — is gone. So is the need to use flashlights to see during one of the hospital's roughly 600 births per year, as staff sometimes had to do amid a sudden blackout if the old generators weren't working.

    For Martha Jones, a senior nurse who has helped deliver countless babies, the reliability that solar has brought has been a revelation.

    “We don't even know when power is cut or when it has come back,” Jones said.

    Rooftop solar panels sit atop a government maternity hospital to provide electricity, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)
    An optometrist checks the eyesight of an elderly woman at a health care center which runs on rooftop solar power, near Raichur, India, Thursday, April 20, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)
    A senior nurse uses a stethoscope to examine Sandhya Shivappa, 25, who is nine months pregnant, at a government maternity hospital which runs on rooftop solar power, in Raichur, India, Tuesday, April 18, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)
    Sandhya Shivappa, 25, who is nine months pregnant, lies on her side while having labor pain as she waits to deliver at a government maternity hospital which runs on rooftop solar power, in Raichur, India, Tuesday, April 18, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)

    In semi-urban and rural regions of India and other developing countries with unreliable power grids, decentralized renewable energy — especially solar — is making all the difference in delivering modern health care. And it's becoming even more indispensable where heat and weather extremes are increasing due to climate change. In Raichur, for example, temperatures can soar to 42 degrees Celsius (107 degrees Fahrenheit) in the warmest months.

    The hospital, Government Maternity, a bare-bones facility that serves thousands who can’t afford private health care, is one of 251 medical facilities in the Raichur district that runs on rooftop solar under a program spearheaded by Selco Foundation. The Bengaluru-based not-for-profit has raised funds from Indian and international corporations and coordinated with the local government since 2017.

    It costs about $8,500 to install a system at public health care centers, including lead-acid batteries that store power for use at night. Smaller clinics run closer to about $2,000. The sites remain connected to the power grid, but only as a backup to the solar.

    Sandhya Shivappa, 25, breastfeeds her baby girl as she rests a day after her delivery at a government maternity hospital which runs on rooftop solar power, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023.(AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)
    Charulatha Jambaiah, right, reacts as she holds the baby girl of her sister Sandhya Shivappa, sitting next to her, with other relatives a day after she was born at the government maternity hospital which runs on rooftop solar power, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)

    Some of Government Maternity's patients, like 25-year-old Sandhya Shivappa, said they knew little or nothing about the hospital's use of solar power and were simply grateful for its free services.

    “We would be paying 30,000 rupees ($367) if I wanted to deliver my baby at a private hospital,” said Sandhya Shivappa, a 25-year-old who had just delivered a healthy baby girl when a reporter visited.

    Shifting the hospitals and clinics to clean energy helps cut emissions in a sector that accounts for about 4.4% of the global figure, according to a study by Health Care Without Harm, an international nonprofit that advocates to reduce that. And that fits broader goals in India, the world’s most populous nation and the third-largest emitter of planet-warming gases.

    While India currently relies heavily on coal for its electricity, it has a target of installing 450 gigawatts of renewable energy that should account for about half its needs by the end of this decade. Rapid increase in solar, especially rooftop solar, will be necessary to meet that goal.

    Birds fly at sunset over rooftop solar panels installed at a government maternity hospital to provide electricity, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)
    Hanumantappa Channadaser, Selco's branch manager, works in a room filled with batteries which supply the power generated from rooftop solar panels installed at the government maternity hospital, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)

    India has currently only installed about one-fourth of the 40 gigawatts of rooftop solar that policymakers had planned to have by last year. Supply chain issues and taxes on imported components — intended to protect domestic makers — have contributed to that shortfall. But India has also constantly reiterated the importance of getting money from developed countries and multilateral development banks to help achieve its climate goals.

    Besides providing uninterrupted power, the rooftop solar is helping the medical facilities cut costs. In nearby Zaheerabad, a low-income neighborhood, Dr. Kavyashree Sugur said the public health center she oversees has paid at least 50% less for electricity in the two years since installing solar panels.

    That's a big benefit in a country that is among the lowest spenders on health care in the world — India spends just a little more than 2% of its national budget on health care, compared to the United States' 18% — and many hospitals and health clinics are cash-strapped.

    (AP Video/Dheeraj Aithal)

    The addition of solar to health care centers in remote regions has been especially important for villagers who don't have the time or money to visit hospitals in the city, and likely would have simply gone without health care, said Hanumantappa Channadaser, Selco's branch manager in Raichur.

    “Before solar, people were apprehensive to visit these hospitals because of power shortages and they didn’t have faith in the treatment they might get," Channadaser said.

    A nurse checks the blood pressure of Shireen Fatima, who is four months pregnant, during her routine checkup at Zaheerabad health care center which runs on rooftop solar power, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)
    Blood samples of patients are placed for testing at Zaheerabad health care center which runs on rooftop solar power, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)
    A pregnant woman who had come for her routine checkup looks at the batteries used with rooftop solar to provide electricity to Zaheerabad health care center, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)
    An elderly woman reacts after seeing a newly born baby of her relative at a government maternity hospital which runs on rooftop solar power, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)

    Recently, Selco, the Ikea Foundation and the Indian health ministry announced that they will set up solar power for 25,000 government health care facilities across 12 Indian states by 2026. Ikea has committed $48 million to the project. Selco is also working with the International Renewable Energy Agency and World Health Organization in Africa to scale up decentralized solar for health facilities on that continent.

    Shireen Fatima, who was four months pregnant and visiting the Zaheerabad health care center for a checkup, said she appreciates how “blood tests, tablets, everything is free here." The hospital's shift to solar energy is “definitely good,” she added.

    "If the hospital is saving on bills, the benefits will be for us too,” she said.

    A girl carries the son of her sister who is being treated at Zaheerabad health care center which runs on rooftop solar power, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)

    ___

    This story has corrected one of the funders of a program to bring more solar power to health care facilities to the Ikea Foundation, rather than the Ikea company.

    ___

    Follow Sibi Arasu on Twitter at @sibi123

    ___

    Associated Press climate and environmental coverage receives support from several private foundations. See more about AP’s climate initiative here. The AP is solely responsible for all content.


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,032
    mickeyrat said:

     

    By Sibi Arasu
    Today

    RAICHUR, India (AP) — In the searing heat that often envelops Raichur, an ancient town in southern India, a ceiling fan that spins without interruption brings sweet relief for the newborn babies and their mothers at the Government Maternity Hospital.

    But such respite wasn't always guaranteed in a region where frequent power cuts to India's overmatched electrical grid can last hours. It wasn't until the hospital installed rooftop solar panels a year ago that it could depend on constant electricity that keeps the lights on, patients and staff comfortable and vaccines and medicines safely refrigerated.

    The diesel generator that used to provide emergency backup — spewing planet-warming gases and toxic smoke within breathing distance of newborns every time it was running — is gone. So is the need to use flashlights to see during one of the hospital's roughly 600 births per year, as staff sometimes had to do amid a sudden blackout if the old generators weren't working.

    For Martha Jones, a senior nurse who has helped deliver countless babies, the reliability that solar has brought has been a revelation.

    “We don't even know when power is cut or when it has come back,” Jones said.

    Rooftop solar panels sit atop a government maternity hospital to provide electricity, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)
    An optometrist checks the eyesight of an elderly woman at a health care center which runs on rooftop solar power, near Raichur, India, Thursday, April 20, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)
    A senior nurse uses a stethoscope to examine Sandhya Shivappa, 25, who is nine months pregnant, at a government maternity hospital which runs on rooftop solar power, in Raichur, India, Tuesday, April 18, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)
    Sandhya Shivappa, 25, who is nine months pregnant, lies on her side while having labor pain as she waits to deliver at a government maternity hospital which runs on rooftop solar power, in Raichur, India, Tuesday, April 18, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)

    In semi-urban and rural regions of India and other developing countries with unreliable power grids, decentralized renewable energy — especially solar — is making all the difference in delivering modern health care. And it's becoming even more indispensable where heat and weather extremes are increasing due to climate change. In Raichur, for example, temperatures can soar to 42 degrees Celsius (107 degrees Fahrenheit) in the warmest months.

    The hospital, Government Maternity, a bare-bones facility that serves thousands who can’t afford private health care, is one of 251 medical facilities in the Raichur district that runs on rooftop solar under a program spearheaded by Selco Foundation. The Bengaluru-based not-for-profit has raised funds from Indian and international corporations and coordinated with the local government since 2017.

    It costs about $8,500 to install a system at public health care centers, including lead-acid batteries that store power for use at night. Smaller clinics run closer to about $2,000. The sites remain connected to the power grid, but only as a backup to the solar.

    Sandhya Shivappa, 25, breastfeeds her baby girl as she rests a day after her delivery at a government maternity hospital which runs on rooftop solar power, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023.(AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)
    Charulatha Jambaiah, right, reacts as she holds the baby girl of her sister Sandhya Shivappa, sitting next to her, with other relatives a day after she was born at the government maternity hospital which runs on rooftop solar power, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)

    Some of Government Maternity's patients, like 25-year-old Sandhya Shivappa, said they knew little or nothing about the hospital's use of solar power and were simply grateful for its free services.

    “We would be paying 30,000 rupees ($367) if I wanted to deliver my baby at a private hospital,” said Sandhya Shivappa, a 25-year-old who had just delivered a healthy baby girl when a reporter visited.

    Shifting the hospitals and clinics to clean energy helps cut emissions in a sector that accounts for about 4.4% of the global figure, according to a study by Health Care Without Harm, an international nonprofit that advocates to reduce that. And that fits broader goals in India, the world’s most populous nation and the third-largest emitter of planet-warming gases.

    While India currently relies heavily on coal for its electricity, it has a target of installing 450 gigawatts of renewable energy that should account for about half its needs by the end of this decade. Rapid increase in solar, especially rooftop solar, will be necessary to meet that goal.

    Birds fly at sunset over rooftop solar panels installed at a government maternity hospital to provide electricity, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)
    Hanumantappa Channadaser, Selco's branch manager, works in a room filled with batteries which supply the power generated from rooftop solar panels installed at the government maternity hospital, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)

    India has currently only installed about one-fourth of the 40 gigawatts of rooftop solar that policymakers had planned to have by last year. Supply chain issues and taxes on imported components — intended to protect domestic makers — have contributed to that shortfall. But India has also constantly reiterated the importance of getting money from developed countries and multilateral development banks to help achieve its climate goals.

    Besides providing uninterrupted power, the rooftop solar is helping the medical facilities cut costs. In nearby Zaheerabad, a low-income neighborhood, Dr. Kavyashree Sugur said the public health center she oversees has paid at least 50% less for electricity in the two years since installing solar panels.

    That's a big benefit in a country that is among the lowest spenders on health care in the world — India spends just a little more than 2% of its national budget on health care, compared to the United States' 18% — and many hospitals and health clinics are cash-strapped.

    (AP Video/Dheeraj Aithal)

    The addition of solar to health care centers in remote regions has been especially important for villagers who don't have the time or money to visit hospitals in the city, and likely would have simply gone without health care, said Hanumantappa Channadaser, Selco's branch manager in Raichur.

    “Before solar, people were apprehensive to visit these hospitals because of power shortages and they didn’t have faith in the treatment they might get," Channadaser said.

    A nurse checks the blood pressure of Shireen Fatima, who is four months pregnant, during her routine checkup at Zaheerabad health care center which runs on rooftop solar power, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)
    Blood samples of patients are placed for testing at Zaheerabad health care center which runs on rooftop solar power, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)
    A pregnant woman who had come for her routine checkup looks at the batteries used with rooftop solar to provide electricity to Zaheerabad health care center, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)
    An elderly woman reacts after seeing a newly born baby of her relative at a government maternity hospital which runs on rooftop solar power, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)

    Recently, Selco, the Ikea Foundation and the Indian health ministry announced that they will set up solar power for 25,000 government health care facilities across 12 Indian states by 2026. Ikea has committed $48 million to the project. Selco is also working with the International Renewable Energy Agency and World Health Organization in Africa to scale up decentralized solar for health facilities on that continent.

    Shireen Fatima, who was four months pregnant and visiting the Zaheerabad health care center for a checkup, said she appreciates how “blood tests, tablets, everything is free here." The hospital's shift to solar energy is “definitely good,” she added.

    "If the hospital is saving on bills, the benefits will be for us too,” she said.

    A girl carries the son of her sister who is being treated at Zaheerabad health care center which runs on rooftop solar power, in Raichur, India, Wednesday, April 19, 2023. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)

    ___

    This story has corrected one of the funders of a program to bring more solar power to health care facilities to the Ikea Foundation, rather than the Ikea company.

    ___

    Follow Sibi Arasu on Twitter at @sibi123

    ___

    Associated Press climate and environmental coverage receives support from several private foundations. See more about AP’s climate initiative here. The AP is solely responsible for all content.



    Rooftop solar panels-- great idea! 
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,586
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,636
    brianlux said:
    Let me state that I'm not for extinction of animals.  But, if the scientists are right, 4 billion species have gone extinct in the history of the planet (how they know that I have not a clue).  Nature did that including some well timed asteroids and earthquakes.   Not humans (until more recently).  So, to protect humanity or our particular species, this would not be the first time a species of turtle goes extinct (or some other animal).  

    I say this to provide some solace.  Humans are a part of nature and play the role of invasive species well.    
    I cannot see using something random and unplanned like an asteroid or earthquake as an excuse for knowingly destroying nature and killing off so many species.  The other thing to keep in mind is that, by not respecting and living within nature's balances and cycles, we are creating our own premature demise.  We are the first (and probably last) to ever do this.  In that light, I believe we are actually not a part of nature.  We have disassociated our species from nature and we are a menace to the planet.  I find no solace in that.
    You can look at it like this too Brian, eventually we will be inhabiting that space with buildings one day.

    Possibly, my friend, but not sustainably. 

    As long as we aren’t some species put out here by a deity or aliens for an experiment, I think we are absolutely part of nature.  Plenty of invasive species out there that wipe out the ecosystem.  Humans just have a more evolved brain and harm the environment knowingly.  

    Anyway, not meant to derail the thread.  

    Be better off powering with coal over solar panels anyway.
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,032
    brianlux said:
    Let me state that I'm not for extinction of animals.  But, if the scientists are right, 4 billion species have gone extinct in the history of the planet (how they know that I have not a clue).  Nature did that including some well timed asteroids and earthquakes.   Not humans (until more recently).  So, to protect humanity or our particular species, this would not be the first time a species of turtle goes extinct (or some other animal).  

    I say this to provide some solace.  Humans are a part of nature and play the role of invasive species well.    
    I cannot see using something random and unplanned like an asteroid or earthquake as an excuse for knowingly destroying nature and killing off so many species.  The other thing to keep in mind is that, by not respecting and living within nature's balances and cycles, we are creating our own premature demise.  We are the first (and probably last) to ever do this.  In that light, I believe we are actually not a part of nature.  We have disassociated our species from nature and we are a menace to the planet.  I find no solace in that.
    You can look at it like this too Brian, eventually we will be inhabiting that space with buildings one day.

    Possibly, my friend, but not sustainably. 

    As long as we aren’t some species put out here by a deity or aliens for an experiment, I think we are absolutely part of nature.  Plenty of invasive species out there that wipe out the ecosystem.  Humans just have a more evolved brain and harm the environment knowingly.  

    Anyway, not meant to derail the thread.  

    Be better off powering with coal over solar panels anyway.

    You have me scratching my head on that one, L.  How do you figure burning coal is better than solar panels?
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,636
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    Let me state that I'm not for extinction of animals.  But, if the scientists are right, 4 billion species have gone extinct in the history of the planet (how they know that I have not a clue).  Nature did that including some well timed asteroids and earthquakes.   Not humans (until more recently).  So, to protect humanity or our particular species, this would not be the first time a species of turtle goes extinct (or some other animal).  

    I say this to provide some solace.  Humans are a part of nature and play the role of invasive species well.    
    I cannot see using something random and unplanned like an asteroid or earthquake as an excuse for knowingly destroying nature and killing off so many species.  The other thing to keep in mind is that, by not respecting and living within nature's balances and cycles, we are creating our own premature demise.  We are the first (and probably last) to ever do this.  In that light, I believe we are actually not a part of nature.  We have disassociated our species from nature and we are a menace to the planet.  I find no solace in that.
    You can look at it like this too Brian, eventually we will be inhabiting that space with buildings one day.

    Possibly, my friend, but not sustainably. 

    As long as we aren’t some species put out here by a deity or aliens for an experiment, I think we are absolutely part of nature.  Plenty of invasive species out there that wipe out the ecosystem.  Humans just have a more evolved brain and harm the environment knowingly.  

    Anyway, not meant to derail the thread.  

    Be better off powering with coal over solar panels anyway.

    You have me scratching my head on that one, L.  How do you figure burning coal is better than solar panels?

    A bad pun because the prior poster seemed to normalize some extinctions. And I reckon boots10 may be a fan of coal.
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,032
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    Let me state that I'm not for extinction of animals.  But, if the scientists are right, 4 billion species have gone extinct in the history of the planet (how they know that I have not a clue).  Nature did that including some well timed asteroids and earthquakes.   Not humans (until more recently).  So, to protect humanity or our particular species, this would not be the first time a species of turtle goes extinct (or some other animal).  

    I say this to provide some solace.  Humans are a part of nature and play the role of invasive species well.    
    I cannot see using something random and unplanned like an asteroid or earthquake as an excuse for knowingly destroying nature and killing off so many species.  The other thing to keep in mind is that, by not respecting and living within nature's balances and cycles, we are creating our own premature demise.  We are the first (and probably last) to ever do this.  In that light, I believe we are actually not a part of nature.  We have disassociated our species from nature and we are a menace to the planet.  I find no solace in that.
    You can look at it like this too Brian, eventually we will be inhabiting that space with buildings one day.

    Possibly, my friend, but not sustainably. 

    As long as we aren’t some species put out here by a deity or aliens for an experiment, I think we are absolutely part of nature.  Plenty of invasive species out there that wipe out the ecosystem.  Humans just have a more evolved brain and harm the environment knowingly.  

    Anyway, not meant to derail the thread.  

    Be better off powering with coal over solar panels anyway.

    You have me scratching my head on that one, L.  How do you figure burning coal is better than solar panels?

    A bad pun because the prior poster seemed to normalize some extinctions. And I reckon boots10 may be a fan of coal.

    LOL, I'm a bit slow on the uptake these days.  Well played, L!
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 15,942
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    Let me state that I'm not for extinction of animals.  But, if the scientists are right, 4 billion species have gone extinct in the history of the planet (how they know that I have not a clue).  Nature did that including some well timed asteroids and earthquakes.   Not humans (until more recently).  So, to protect humanity or our particular species, this would not be the first time a species of turtle goes extinct (or some other animal).  

    I say this to provide some solace.  Humans are a part of nature and play the role of invasive species well.    
    I cannot see using something random and unplanned like an asteroid or earthquake as an excuse for knowingly destroying nature and killing off so many species.  The other thing to keep in mind is that, by not respecting and living within nature's balances and cycles, we are creating our own premature demise.  We are the first (and probably last) to ever do this.  In that light, I believe we are actually not a part of nature.  We have disassociated our species from nature and we are a menace to the planet.  I find no solace in that.
    You can look at it like this too Brian, eventually we will be inhabiting that space with buildings one day.

    Possibly, my friend, but not sustainably. 

    As long as we aren’t some species put out here by a deity or aliens for an experiment, I think we are absolutely part of nature.  Plenty of invasive species out there that wipe out the ecosystem.  Humans just have a more evolved brain and harm the environment knowingly.  

    Anyway, not meant to derail the thread.  

    Be better off powering with coal over solar panels anyway.

    You have me scratching my head on that one, L.  How do you figure burning coal is better than solar panels?

    A bad pun because the prior poster seemed to normalize some extinctions. And I reckon boots10 may be a fan of coal.
    No, not a fan of coal.  I want to keep the Earth the habitable place it is today. For sure don’t trust corporations to do that, and trust government about as much as I do corporations.  

    Selfishly I want to keep the planet for the humans.  But I think whatever happens is just part of the natural process of nature.  Mars may be uninhabitable, but is that good or bad?   Bad from the lens of humanity, I guess.  Humans getting too far ahead of themselves and rendering themselves extinct sounds like nature to me.   

    Not making excuses to say we shouldn’t do anything.   I just think when people say we need to save the planet they really are saying we need to save the planet for humans, because an Earth that is not habitable for humans is no less Earth than it is today.   
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,032
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    Let me state that I'm not for extinction of animals.  But, if the scientists are right, 4 billion species have gone extinct in the history of the planet (how they know that I have not a clue).  Nature did that including some well timed asteroids and earthquakes.   Not humans (until more recently).  So, to protect humanity or our particular species, this would not be the first time a species of turtle goes extinct (or some other animal).  

    I say this to provide some solace.  Humans are a part of nature and play the role of invasive species well.    
    I cannot see using something random and unplanned like an asteroid or earthquake as an excuse for knowingly destroying nature and killing off so many species.  The other thing to keep in mind is that, by not respecting and living within nature's balances and cycles, we are creating our own premature demise.  We are the first (and probably last) to ever do this.  In that light, I believe we are actually not a part of nature.  We have disassociated our species from nature and we are a menace to the planet.  I find no solace in that.
    You can look at it like this too Brian, eventually we will be inhabiting that space with buildings one day.

    Possibly, my friend, but not sustainably. 

    As long as we aren’t some species put out here by a deity or aliens for an experiment, I think we are absolutely part of nature.  Plenty of invasive species out there that wipe out the ecosystem.  Humans just have a more evolved brain and harm the environment knowingly.  

    Anyway, not meant to derail the thread.  

    Be better off powering with coal over solar panels anyway.

    You have me scratching my head on that one, L.  How do you figure burning coal is better than solar panels?

    A bad pun because the prior poster seemed to normalize some extinctions. And I reckon boots10 may be a fan of coal.
    No, not a fan of coal.  I want to keep the Earth the habitable place it is today. For sure don’t trust corporations to do that, and trust government about as much as I do corporations.  

    Selfishly I want to keep the planet for the humans.  But I think whatever happens is just part of the natural process of nature.  Mars may be uninhabitable, but is that good or bad?   Bad from the lens of humanity, I guess.  Humans getting too far ahead of themselves and rendering themselves extinct sounds like nature to me.   

    Not making excuses to say we shouldn’t do anything.   I just think when people say we need to save the planet they really are saying we need to save the planet for humans, because an Earth that is not habitable for humans is no less Earth than it is today.   

    I'm glad you care about the planet and see that coal is not the way to go.  I get it that both corporations and gov are difficult to put ones trust in.  I think the biggest difference is that (in theory at least) government is more apt to respond to our desires.  Corporations (for the most part) exist simply to make as much profit as possible... and elect people in congress who will help  them do that so, yes, a somewhat viscous circle- but that's why we need more well informed voters. 

    If we are selfish about wanting to keep the planet for humans, that's understandable- we all want to live, right?  But the catch here is that the Earth doesn't exist simply and/or solely for us.  We are a part of the web of life and the more we insist on trying to live outside that web, the quicker we bring on our own demise.  I'm one of those people who would argue that all life has an equal right to life (what is sometimes referred to as being "biocentric"), but even if we just look at our own selfish desire to exist, we cannot do that without living within nature's parameters.  We think we can live outside those limits, but that's just not the case.  And that thinking has become predominant among our species and threatens to become our own undoing. 

    Interesting what you're saying about "I just think when people say we need to save the planet they really are saying we need to save the planet for humans...
    [Right! That's where our selfish desire comes in, and it's not a biocentric perspective],
    ...because an Earth that is not habitable for humans is no less Earth than it is today"
    [Very much so but, sadly,  if Earth is not habitable for humans, that means we will be wiping out large number of other mammal as well. And that just seems wrong to me.]
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 15,942
    edited May 2023
    My points are "pointless" at the end of the day as we should try to do right by the planet and humanity at the same time.   Just think at the end of the day humans are just like any other invasive species that can wreak havoc on its environment if not managed appropriately. 
    Post edited by bootlegger10 on
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,032
    My points are "pointless" at the end of the day as we should try to do right by the planet and humanity at the same time.   Just think at the end of the day humans are just like any other invasive species that can wreak havoc on its environment if not managed appropriately. 

    What species do you know of that has (or is even capable of) wrecked havoc on the entire planet- I mean the entire planet, terra firma, oceans, the atmosphere- the whole ball of wax?  We are so not like any other species, especially considering when know what we are doing and can make conscious decisions about our actions.  Homo sapiens are the worst plague this planet has ever dealt with.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 15,942
    According to Neal Degrass Tyson humans share about 99% of the same DNA with chimps.  So we aren’t that evolved.  All I am saying is that humans are a part of nature and what we do is all part of the evolutionary process (good or bad) that is nature.  To say humans are different than any other animal is to me to imply that they were put here by a deity or alien.  

    I am just philosophizing when your thread was making an actual point.   

    You mentioned government was more trustworthy.  This is an example where government pushes for solar and gives massive credits to do so, and then we find out the harmful effects later on down the road.  I will grant you that government is likely more for the people, but doesn’t make me want to trust them anymore than I have to
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,032
    According to Neal Degrass Tyson humans share about 99% of the same DNA with chimps.  So we aren’t that evolved.  All I am saying is that humans are a part of nature and what we do is all part of the evolutionary process (good or bad) that is nature.  To say humans are different than any other animal is to me to imply that they were put here by a deity or alien.  

    I am just philosophizing when your thread was making an actual point.   

    You mentioned government was more trustworthy.  This is an example where government pushes for solar and gives massive credits to do so, and then we find out the harmful effects later on down the road.  I will grant you that government is likely more for the people, but doesn’t make me want to trust them anymore than I have to

    I have often been intrigued by what makes us different from all other animals.  Namely:
    -Our ability to engage in complex reasoning.
    -Our use of complex language.
    -Our self-awareness.
    -Our ability to solve complex problems.
    -Introspection: our ability to describe our thoughts and feelings. 

    Those- especially taken together- make us quite a bit different from other animals.  Only whales and dolphins come close, and even they lack some of these distinguishing characteristics. 

    So, well, how did we get here?  I dunno.  Maybe David Byrne might know.  To me it's a Mystery, capital "M",  Mystery.  But it is what it is regardless, and we have the ability to make choices and yet we don't make wise choices (vast solar farms in deserts, the topic at hand, what I see as a good example) and thus we risk causing our own extinction which other species generally don't do.  So maybe for that reason alone we are a lower species. I could see an argument for that.

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,586
    I'll counter with the upside. Private build. Over asphalt. Relieves pressure on the grid there.
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  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,032
    mickeyrat said:
    I'll counter with the upside. Private build. Over asphalt. Relieves pressure on the grid there.

    I am totally in favor of covering existing parking lots with solar panels.  We are member-owners (there are hundreds) of our local food co-op and our parking lot and building are loaded with solar panels:
    Placerville CA Healthy Restaurants - Menus and Reviews - MenuPix 
    IMG


    The solar farms I object to are those built on natural open space like this one:

    IMG




    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,586
    brianlux said:
    mickeyrat said:
    I'll counter with the upside. Private build. Over asphalt. Relieves pressure on the grid there.

    I am totally in favor of covering existing parking lots with solar panels.  We are member-owners (there are hundreds) of our local food co-op and our parking lot and building are loaded with solar panels:
    Placerville CA Healthy Restaurants - Menus and Reviews - MenuPix 
    IMG


    The solar farms I object to are those built on natural open space like this one:

    IMG





    agree. I wonder how much cooler cities might be where as much asphalt as possible is under cover such as with solar panels. You know, the heat isnt absorbed and held like now?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,032
    mickeyrat said:
    brianlux said:
    mickeyrat said:
    I'll counter with the upside. Private build. Over asphalt. Relieves pressure on the grid there.

    I am totally in favor of covering existing parking lots with solar panels.  We are member-owners (there are hundreds) of our local food co-op and our parking lot and building are loaded with solar panels:
    Placerville CA Healthy Restaurants - Menus and Reviews - MenuPix 
    IMG


    The solar farms I object to are those built on natural open space like this one:

    IMG





    agree. I wonder how much cooler cities might be where as much asphalt as possible is under cover such as with solar panels. You know, the heat isnt absorbed and held like now?

    For sure.
    And this... I was just (literally just) reading this article:

    Texas’s nighttime temperatures are a symptom of a new, more dangerous kind of heat wave

    A brutal heat wave is expanding across Texas and the South this week, impacting millions of Americans with triple-digit temperatures and extreme humidity that is cranking up the heat index, making it feel hotter than 110 degrees in some of the region’s most populous cities.

    But forecasters are warning that there is a more dangerous aspect to this heat wave, and one that is becoming more common because of the climate crisis: overnight temperatures are not cooling down enough, offering little reprieve from the oppressive heat — particularly for people who don’t have access to air conditioning.

    The National Weather Service highlighted the insidious nature of this week’s heat wave in a statement on Monday, when forecasters at the Weather Prediction Center noted “there may be more danger than a typical heat event, due to the longevity of near-record or record high nighttime lows and elevated heat index readings.”

    Overnight temperature records are expected to far outpace daytime records this week. Around 90 afternoon high-temperature records could be broken across the South, from Texas to the Mississippi Valley and parts of Florida, according to data from the National Weather Service.

    But overnight temperatures will also stay abnormally high, with potentially 180 nighttime records broken over the next seven days.

    Hotter nights are a consequence of the climate crisis, scientists have warned. On average, nights are warming faster than days in most of the US, according to the 2018 National Climate Assessment.

    “We think it’s because as the days grow warmer, there is more moisture in the air that traps the heat,” Lisa Patel, the executive director of the Medical Society Consortium on Climate and Health, told CNN. “During the day, that moisture reflects the heat, but at night, it traps the heat in.”

    Increasing nighttime heat is even more common in cities because of the urban heat island effect, in which metro areas are significantly hotter than their surroundings.

    Dallas, for example, is set to go six consecutive days without seeing temperatures drop below 80 degrees Fahrenheit overnight — a June record for the city.

    Areas with a lot of asphalt, concrete, buildings and freeways absorb more of the sun’s heat than areas with parks, rivers and tree-lined streets. At night, when temperatures are supposed to cool down, the retained heat is released back into the air, said Kristie Ebi, a climate and health expert at the University of Washington.

    Areas with a lot of green space – with grass and trees that reflect sunlight and create shade – are cooler on summer’s hottest days.

    “Many cities put together cooling shelters, but people have to know where they are, how to get to them and what hours they operate,” Ebi told CNN, noting that city officials need to rethink urban planning to consider climate change.

    “It’s going to take a while for trees to grow, but we need tree planting programs focusing on places that are particularly vulnerable — making sure that city planning takes into account that we’re heading into a much warmer future.”

    Houston has had nine days far this month that haven’t dropped below 80 degrees — nearly double what’s typical for June. This has only happened two other times in the city’s records.

    Nighttime should be when our bodies are given a break from the heat, Patel said. But with climate change, that’s becoming less likely to happen. A recent study found that heat-related deaths could increase six-fold by the end of the century due to warmer nighttime temperatures, unless planet-warming pollution is significantly curbed.

    Researchers have also warned the climate crisis is already affecting people’s ability to sleep. A study published last month found that people living in warmer climates lose more sleep for each degree of temperature increase.

    “We all know what it’s like to try to fall asleep on a hot night — it’s uncomfortable,” Patel said. “We often lose sleep. It is estimated that by the end of the century, we could lose about two days of sleep per year, and it will be worse for people without access to air conditioning.”

    Patel explains that at its most extreme, when a human body does not get the chance to recover — typically at night — heat stress can progress to heat stroke, which is associated with confusion, dizziness and passing out.

    And while this can happen to anyone, she said the impacts are more amplified on the elderly, people with chronic underlying health conditions, and young children, particularly infants. Heat waves that go on for several days tend to be associated with more deaths as the body can no longer keep itself cool.

    “Living through a heat wave during the day can be like running a race,” Patel said. “We need a cool break to recover and recuperate, and when nighttime temperatures don’t drop, we don’t get that critical time we need to relieve the stress on our bodies from being overheated during the day.”





    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,586
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,586
    novel concept.....


     
    Solar panels on water canals seem like a no-brainer. So why aren't they widespread?
    By BRITTANY PETERSON and SIBI ARASU
    Yesterday

    Back in 2015, California's dry earth was crunching under a fourth year of drought. Then-Governor Jerry Brown ordered an unprecedented 25% reduction in home water use. Farmers, who use the most water, volunteered too to avoid deeper, mandatory cuts.

    Brown also set a goal for the state to get half its energy from renewable sources, with climate change bearing down.

    Yet when Jordan Harris and Robin Raj went knocking on doors with an idea that addresses both water loss and climate pollution — installing solar panels over irrigation canals — they couldn't get anyone to commit.

    Fast forward eight years. With devastating heat, record-breaking wildfire, looming crisis on the Colorado River, a growing commitment to fighting climate change, and a little bit of movement-building, their company Solar AquaGrid and partners are preparing to break ground on the first solar-covered canal project in the United States.

    “All of these coming together at this moment," Harris said. “Is there a more pressing issue that we could apply our time to?"

    The idea is simple: install solar panels over canals in sunny, water-scarce regions where they reduce evaporation and make electricity.

    study by the University of California, Merced gives a boost to the idea, estimating that 63 billion gallons of water could be saved by covering California's 4,000 miles of canals. Researchers believe that much installed solar would also generate a significant amount of electricity.

    But that's an estimate — neither it, nor other potential benefits have been tested scientifically. That's about to change with Project Nexus in California's Central Valley.

    BUILDING MOMENTUM

    Solar on canals has long been discussed as a two-for-one solution in California, where affordable land for energy development is as scarce as water. But the grand idea was still a hypothetical.

    Harris, a former record label executive, co-founded “Rock the Vote,” the voter registration push in the early 1990s, and Raj organized socially responsible and sustainability campaigns for businesses. They knew that people needed a nudge - ideally one from a trusted source.

    They thought research from a reputable institution might do the trick, and got funding for UC Merced to study the impact of solar-covered-canals in California.

    The study's results have taken off.

    They reached Governor Gavin Newsom, who called Wade Crowfoot, his secretary of natural resources.

    “Let's get this in the ground and see what's possible,” Crowfoot recalled the governor saying.

    Around the same time, the Turlock Irrigation District, an entity that also provides power, reached out to UC Merced. It was looking to build a solar project to comply with the state's increased goal of 100% renewable energy by 2045. But land was very expensive, so building atop existing infrastructure was appealing. Then there was the prospect that shade from panels might reduce weeds growing in the canals — a problem that costs this utility $1 million annually.

    “Until this UC Merced paper came out, we never really saw what those co-benefits would be,” said Josh Weimer, external affairs manager for the district. "If somebody was going to pilot this concept, we wanted to make sure it was us.”

    The state committed $20 million in public funds, turning the pilot into a three-party collaboration among the private, public and academic sectors. About 1.6 miles (2.6 kilometers) of canals between 20 and 110 feet wide will be covered with solar panels between five and 15 feet off the ground.

    The UC Merced team will study impacts ranging from evaporation to water quality, said Brandi McKuin, lead researcher on the study.

    “We need to get to the heart of those questions before we make any recommendations about how to do this more widely,” she said.

    LESSONS LEARNED ABROAD

    California isn't first with this technology. India pioneered it on one of the largest irrigation projects in the world. The Sardar Sarovar dam and canal project brings water to hundreds of thousands of villages in the dry, arid regions of western India’s Gujarat state.

    Then-chief minister of Gujarat state, Narendra Modi, now the country’s prime minister, inaugurated it in 2012 with much fanfare. Sun Edison, the engineering firm, promised 19,000 km (11,800 miles) of solar canals. But only a handful of smaller projects have gone up since. The firm filed for bankruptcy.

    “The capital costs are really high, and maintenance is an issue,” said Jaydip Parmar an engineer in Gujarat who oversees several small solar canal projects.

    With ample arid land, ground-based solar makes more sense there economically, he said.

    Clunky design is another reason the technology hasn’t been widely adopted in India. The panels in Gujarat’s pilot project sit directly over the canal, limiting access for maintenance and emergency crews.

    Back in California, Harris took note of India's experience, and began a search for a better solution. The project there will use better materials and sit higher.

    NEXT STEPS

    Project Nexus may not be alone for long. The Gila River Indian Community received funding from the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law to install solar on their canals in an effort to save water to ease stress on the Colorado River. And one of Arizona's largest water and power utilities, the Salt River Project, is studying the technology alongside Arizona State University.

    Still, rapid change isn’t exactly embraced in the world of water infrastructure, said Representative Jared Huffman, D-Calif.

    “It’s an ossified bastion of stodgy old engineers,” he said.

    Huffman has been talking up the technology for almost a decade, and said he finds folks are still far more interested in building taller dams than what he says is a much more sensible idea.

    He pushed a $25 million provision through last year's Inflation Reduction Act to fund a pilot project for the Bureau of Reclamation. Project sites for that one are currently being evaluated.

    And a group of more than 100 climate advocacy groups, including the Center for Biological Diversity and Greenpeace, have now sent a letter to Interior Secretary Deb Haaland and Bureau Commissioner Camille Touton urging them “to accelerate the widespread deployment of solar photovoltaic energy systems" above the Bureau’s canals and aqueducts. Covering all 8,000 miles of Bureau-owned canals and aqueducts could “generate over 25 gigawatts of renewable energy — enough to power nearly 20 million homes — and reduce water evaporation by tens of billions of gallons.”

    Covering every canal would be ideal, Huffman said, but starting with the California Aqueduct and the Delta Mendota canal, "it’s a really compelling case," he said. "And it's about time that we started doing this.”

    ___

    This story was first published on July 20, 2023 and was updated on July 21, 2023 to correct the erroneous statement that panels over California’s canals could provide 13 gigawatts of power, enough to supply the city of Los Angeles from January through October. The proper term of measurement would have been gigawatt-hours rather than gigawatts, but additionally, researchers now say the total amount of energy that would be generated has not yet been scientifically estimated.

    ___

    Arasu reported from Bengaluru, India.

    ___ The Associated Press receives support from the Walton Family Foundation for coverage of water and environmental policy. The AP is solely responsible for all content. For all of AP’s environmental coverage, visit https://apnews.com/hub/climate-and-environment


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,032
    mickeyrat said:
    novel concept.....


     
    Solar panels on water canals seem like a no-brainer. So why aren't they widespread?
    By BRITTANY PETERSON and SIBI ARASU
    Yesterday

    Back in 2015, California's dry earth was crunching under a fourth year of drought. Then-Governor Jerry Brown ordered an unprecedented 25% reduction in home water use. Farmers, who use the most water, volunteered too to avoid deeper, mandatory cuts.

    Brown also set a goal for the state to get half its energy from renewable sources, with climate change bearing down.

    Yet when Jordan Harris and Robin Raj went knocking on doors with an idea that addresses both water loss and climate pollution — installing solar panels over irrigation canals — they couldn't get anyone to commit.

    Fast forward eight years. With devastating heat, record-breaking wildfire, looming crisis on the Colorado River, a growing commitment to fighting climate change, and a little bit of movement-building, their company Solar AquaGrid and partners are preparing to break ground on the first solar-covered canal project in the United States.

    “All of these coming together at this moment," Harris said. “Is there a more pressing issue that we could apply our time to?"

    The idea is simple: install solar panels over canals in sunny, water-scarce regions where they reduce evaporation and make electricity.

    study by the University of California, Merced gives a boost to the idea, estimating that 63 billion gallons of water could be saved by covering California's 4,000 miles of canals. Researchers believe that much installed solar would also generate a significant amount of electricity.

    But that's an estimate — neither it, nor other potential benefits have been tested scientifically. That's about to change with Project Nexus in California's Central Valley.

    BUILDING MOMENTUM

    Solar on canals has long been discussed as a two-for-one solution in California, where affordable land for energy development is as scarce as water. But the grand idea was still a hypothetical.

    Harris, a former record label executive, co-founded “Rock the Vote,” the voter registration push in the early 1990s, and Raj organized socially responsible and sustainability campaigns for businesses. They knew that people needed a nudge - ideally one from a trusted source.

    They thought research from a reputable institution might do the trick, and got funding for UC Merced to study the impact of solar-covered-canals in California.

    The study's results have taken off.

    They reached Governor Gavin Newsom, who called Wade Crowfoot, his secretary of natural resources.

    “Let's get this in the ground and see what's possible,” Crowfoot recalled the governor saying.

    Around the same time, the Turlock Irrigation District, an entity that also provides power, reached out to UC Merced. It was looking to build a solar project to comply with the state's increased goal of 100% renewable energy by 2045. But land was very expensive, so building atop existing infrastructure was appealing. Then there was the prospect that shade from panels might reduce weeds growing in the canals — a problem that costs this utility $1 million annually.

    “Until this UC Merced paper came out, we never really saw what those co-benefits would be,” said Josh Weimer, external affairs manager for the district. "If somebody was going to pilot this concept, we wanted to make sure it was us.”

    The state committed $20 million in public funds, turning the pilot into a three-party collaboration among the private, public and academic sectors. About 1.6 miles (2.6 kilometers) of canals between 20 and 110 feet wide will be covered with solar panels between five and 15 feet off the ground.

    The UC Merced team will study impacts ranging from evaporation to water quality, said Brandi McKuin, lead researcher on the study.

    “We need to get to the heart of those questions before we make any recommendations about how to do this more widely,” she said.

    LESSONS LEARNED ABROAD

    California isn't first with this technology. India pioneered it on one of the largest irrigation projects in the world. The Sardar Sarovar dam and canal project brings water to hundreds of thousands of villages in the dry, arid regions of western India’s Gujarat state.

    Then-chief minister of Gujarat state, Narendra Modi, now the country’s prime minister, inaugurated it in 2012 with much fanfare. Sun Edison, the engineering firm, promised 19,000 km (11,800 miles) of solar canals. But only a handful of smaller projects have gone up since. The firm filed for bankruptcy.

    “The capital costs are really high, and maintenance is an issue,” said Jaydip Parmar an engineer in Gujarat who oversees several small solar canal projects.

    With ample arid land, ground-based solar makes more sense there economically, he said.

    Clunky design is another reason the technology hasn’t been widely adopted in India. The panels in Gujarat’s pilot project sit directly over the canal, limiting access for maintenance and emergency crews.

    Back in California, Harris took note of India's experience, and began a search for a better solution. The project there will use better materials and sit higher.

    NEXT STEPS

    Project Nexus may not be alone for long. The Gila River Indian Community received funding from the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law to install solar on their canals in an effort to save water to ease stress on the Colorado River. And one of Arizona's largest water and power utilities, the Salt River Project, is studying the technology alongside Arizona State University.

    Still, rapid change isn’t exactly embraced in the world of water infrastructure, said Representative Jared Huffman, D-Calif.

    “It’s an ossified bastion of stodgy old engineers,” he said.

    Huffman has been talking up the technology for almost a decade, and said he finds folks are still far more interested in building taller dams than what he says is a much more sensible idea.

    He pushed a $25 million provision through last year's Inflation Reduction Act to fund a pilot project for the Bureau of Reclamation. Project sites for that one are currently being evaluated.

    And a group of more than 100 climate advocacy groups, including the Center for Biological Diversity and Greenpeace, have now sent a letter to Interior Secretary Deb Haaland and Bureau Commissioner Camille Touton urging them “to accelerate the widespread deployment of solar photovoltaic energy systems" above the Bureau’s canals and aqueducts. Covering all 8,000 miles of Bureau-owned canals and aqueducts could “generate over 25 gigawatts of renewable energy — enough to power nearly 20 million homes — and reduce water evaporation by tens of billions of gallons.”

    Covering every canal would be ideal, Huffman said, but starting with the California Aqueduct and the Delta Mendota canal, "it’s a really compelling case," he said. "And it's about time that we started doing this.”

    ___

    This story was first published on July 20, 2023 and was updated on July 21, 2023 to correct the erroneous statement that panels over California’s canals could provide 13 gigawatts of power, enough to supply the city of Los Angeles from January through October. The proper term of measurement would have been gigawatt-hours rather than gigawatts, but additionally, researchers now say the total amount of energy that would be generated has not yet been scientifically estimated.

    ___

    Arasu reported from Bengaluru, India.

    ___ The Associated Press receives support from the Walton Family Foundation for coverage of water and environmental policy. The AP is solely responsible for all content. For all of AP’s environmental coverage, visit https://apnews.com/hub/climate-and-environment



    Good God!  Why did I not think of that before?! Or someone?!  That is on hell of a good idea!
    :plus_one:
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,032

    Ingenious and kudos for alternative energy but (sorry L) imagine scores of these big undulating metal and plastic devices floating on the ocean.  I don't even like to think about it.  I don't think sacrificing the aesthetics of something as beautiful as the waves on the ocean is worth whatever gains in energy we might gain.
    Covering existing infrastructure with solar panels makes sense.  But covering whats left of the natural world- be it desert, savanna, ocean, etc.- that seems like a horrible idea to me.  There is so little left of this planet.  Let's not cover what remains with more plastic and metal.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,636
    brianlux said:

    Ingenious and kudos for alternative energy but (sorry L) imagine scores of these big undulating metal and plastic devices floating on the ocean.  I don't even like to think about it.  I don't think sacrificing the aesthetics of something as beautiful as the waves on the ocean is worth whatever gains in energy we might gain.
    Covering existing infrastructure with solar panels makes sense.  But covering whats left of the natural world- be it desert, savanna, ocean, etc.- that seems like a horrible idea to me.  There is so little left of this planet.  Let's not cover what remains with more plastic and metal.

    Bri, it was a Pearl Jam reference ;)

    Please enjoy this inspirational video from the spaceman drummer tour.

    https://youtu.be/LcMvhv1rIJw
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