---President Elect Musk and Convicted Felon Donald J Trump---

The Juggler

2023

tbergs said:

The Juggler said:

Anyone else still think debates don't matter?

Absolute nightmare scenario is playing out. 

It's not the content of the debate, it's the appearance and Joe failed that small task of looking competent. Trump never is competent, but to some forcefule bluster and lies is a sufficient replacement for competence. Both suck. So then it comes down to who do I think is a better person that will serve the country and not their own interests; that's a no brainer.

I'm hopeful we can someday get back to having a higher bar for president, but the last 10 years have been rough.

benjs said:

The Juggler said:

Anyone else still think debates don't matter?

Absolute nightmare scenario is playing out. 

I regrettably eat my words, Juggler. I still hold out a tiny glimmer of hope that maybe there's enough time between now and November to erase it, but Biden looked closer to dead than alive so I find it unlikely. This was fucking brutal - enough to make me worried about him not even making it until November.

You or I would've faired better than Biden. Trump was awful too. He maybe answered one or two questions and lied about literally everything.

A competent person in Biden's place would have easily been able to refute, laugh off, and retort back his nonsense.

But Trump's nonsensical ramblings seemed to always divert Biden's responses and he would then respond to the nonsense instead of saying something to the camera like "folks, did any of that make sense to you? Yeah, me neither. Look, the question was regarding his 10% tariff bullshit....the reason he doesn't want to answer is because he knows that will be like injecting our current 3% inflation rate with steroids......." He never once did something like this. Trump tee'd him up perfectly with a Jan 6 question and an abortion question---things Biden should have absolutely owned him on and he fumbled away his responses.

Horrific evening. It looked over before Joe even got to his podium. Pains me to say it. I feel bad for the guy. 

The Juggler

2023

mace1229 said:

bootleg said:

Who prepped Biden for this debate?  Everyone knew going into that the only goal of this debate was for Biden to not seem old and feeble and that’s exactly how he came across.  None of the policy matters at this point so stop getting hung up on the details.  I’d still vote for Biden even if it was Weekend at Bernie’s type of situation before ever voting for Trump but my god pull it together.  There’s too much at stake.

A vote for Biden seems like a vote for Kamala at this point.

Which is a million times better than a vote for Trump still. 

Kat

The Juggler said:

mace1229 said:

bootleg said:

Who prepped Biden for this debate?  Everyone knew going into that the only goal of this debate was for Biden to not seem old and feeble and that’s exactly how he came across.  None of the policy matters at this point so stop getting hung up on the details.  I’d still vote for Biden even if it was Weekend at Bernie’s type of situation before ever voting for Trump but my god pull it together.  There’s too much at stake.

A vote for Biden seems like a vote for Kamala at this point.

Which is a million times better than a vote for Trump still. 

+1

brianlux

2023

benjs said:

The Juggler said:

Anyone else still think debates don't matter?

Absolute nightmare scenario is playing out. 

I regrettably eat my words, Juggler. I still hold out a tiny glimmer of hope that maybe there's enough time between now and November to erase it, but Biden looked closer to dead than alive so I find it unlikely. This was fucking brutal - enough to make me worried about him not even making it until November.

I think its worth noting that Biden went into this debate with a cold.  Some people, ESPECIALLY when they're old, really show it when they are ill (hells bells, you should see what I look like every morning until I've been up for a while and had my morning coffee, lol.  Scary. )     

Our biggest hope is that there will be another debate and Biden will be in better shape and turn things around. 

benjs

I'm trying to think through the voting cohorts, and in my eyes, any way you slice it is horrible for Democrats.

"I lean Republican..." because of Trump, because I vote Republican, because I won't vote Democrat, because I won't vote Biden. No change in the first two scenarios, solidification of Republican votes in the latter two. 

"I'm undecided...." because I lean Republican but can't vote Trump, because I lean Democrat but can't vote Biden, because I don't align with a party's ideals directly. Net win for Trump in the first two scenarios, net win for Trump based on not seeming like he's dying on stage.

For the last group, four years ago I'd have said that Republicans are a splintered group of voters, some voting for the Trump cabal, others for the Republicans. They've all had spine-removal surgery at this point though, and now it's Democrats who are disadvantaged, and Biden's performance is likely to solidify that disadvantage.

"I lean Democrat..." because of Biden, because I vote Democrat, because of traditional Democrat values, because of liberal Democrat values, because I won't vote Republican, because I won't vote Trump. Net loss for Biden if they lean Democrat because of Biden, or because of traditional Democrat values (how could they let him on that stage?), or because of liberal Democrat values. Net neutral for the latter two scenarios.

Glorified KC

Let's play it out.  If not Biden on the ticket then who?  Kamala would be my first choice hands down, but would she be the best to replace Biden?

mace1229

Here’s my production. Within the next 4 weeks they announce a new candidate with Kamala still VP.
They’ll spend the next couple weeks deciding who it is and convincing Biden to drop out on his own and make it his decision. 

benjs

mace1229 said:

Here’s my production. Within the next 4 weeks they announce a new candidate with Kamala still VP.
They’ll spend the next couple weeks deciding who it is and convincing Biden to drop out on his own and make it his decision. 

Whatever the decision is, it'll be all in or all out on Biden quickly. Time is of the essence.

HughFreakingDillon

2024

mace1229 said:

Here’s my production. Within the next 4 weeks they announce a new candidate with Kamala still VP.
They’ll spend the next couple weeks deciding who it is and convincing Biden to drop out on his own and make it his decision. 

Zero chance this happens. Biden was the safe bet to begin with. This is not a party that takes risks, even to save themselves. 

brianlux

2023

mace1229 said:

Here’s my production. Within the next 4 weeks they announce a new candidate with Kamala still VP.
They’ll spend the next couple weeks deciding who it is and convincing Biden to drop out on his own and make it his decision. 

That would be a smart move, especially leaving Kamala in as VP and not giving here the nomination to run for president.  She would not have a chance in hell of beating Trump (and I don't say that as a slam on her.  It's just the truth.)

benjs

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

Here’s my production. Within the next 4 weeks they announce a new candidate with Kamala still VP.
They’ll spend the next couple weeks deciding who it is and convincing Biden to drop out on his own and make it his decision. 

Zero chance this happens. Biden was the safe bet to begin with. This is not a party that takes risks, even to save themselves. 

Biden is no longer a safe bet.  

cincybearcat

brianlux said:

benjs said:

The Juggler said:

Anyone else still think debates don't matter?

Absolute nightmare scenario is playing out. 

I regrettably eat my words, Juggler. I still hold out a tiny glimmer of hope that maybe there's enough time between now and November to erase it, but Biden looked closer to dead than alive so I find it unlikely. This was fucking brutal - enough to make me worried about him not even making it until November.

I think its worth noting that Biden went into this debate with a cold.  Some people, ESPECIALLY when they're old, really show it when they are ill (hells bells, you should see what I look like every morning until I've been up for a while and had my morning coffee, lol.  Scary. )     

Our biggest hope is that there will be another debate and Biden will be in better shape and turn things around. 

Why didn’t they mention the cold that they now say he has been dealing with for days prior to the debate? Only 3 reasons…1) they are idiots 2) they thought it would look like an excuse and were hoping he would still slay 3) it’s a bullshit after the fact excuse for a corpse like performance 

pjhawks

mace1229 said:

Here’s my production. Within the next 4 weeks they announce a new candidate with Kamala still VP.
They’ll spend the next couple weeks deciding who it is and convincing Biden to drop out on his own and make it his decision. 

The Dems fucked this up royally and may have destroyed the country in the process. No way Biden should have been more than a 1 term President. That should have been the stance since 2020 election.  Now they either stay with a guy who has no chance of lasting 4 more years or replacing him 4 months before the general election. What a disaster. 

And who is the choice? Harris, Newsom, Buttigieg (my choice), Whitmer?   I also saw some mentions that their is a gray area in having a Presidential and Vice-Presidential candidate from the same state so if they choose Newsom they may have to replace Harris as well.  

The Juggler

2023

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

Here’s my production. Within the next 4 weeks they announce a new candidate with Kamala still VP.
They’ll spend the next couple weeks deciding who it is and convincing Biden to drop out on his own and make it his decision. 

Zero chance this happens. Biden was the safe bet to begin with. This is not a party that takes risks, even to save themselves. 

Odds of it happening are now over 50% in my opinion.

The Juggler

2023

cincybearcat said:

brianlux said:

benjs said:

The Juggler said:

Anyone else still think debates don't matter?

Absolute nightmare scenario is playing out. 

I regrettably eat my words, Juggler. I still hold out a tiny glimmer of hope that maybe there's enough time between now and November to erase it, but Biden looked closer to dead than alive so I find it unlikely. This was fucking brutal - enough to make me worried about him not even making it until November.

I think its worth noting that Biden went into this debate with a cold.  Some people, ESPECIALLY when they're old, really show it when they are ill (hells bells, you should see what I look like every morning until I've been up for a while and had my morning coffee, lol.  Scary. )     

Our biggest hope is that there will be another debate and Biden will be in better shape and turn things around. 

Why didn’t they mention the cold that they now say he has been dealing with for days prior to the debate? Only 3 reasons…1) they are idiots 2) they thought it would look like an excuse and were hoping he would still slay 3) it’s a bullshit after the fact excuse for a corpse like performance 

He looked fine speaking at that event after the debate. It was likely an excuse. 

cincybearcat

The Juggler said:

cincybearcat said:

brianlux said:

benjs said:

The Juggler said:

Anyone else still think debates don't matter?

Absolute nightmare scenario is playing out. 

I regrettably eat my words, Juggler. I still hold out a tiny glimmer of hope that maybe there's enough time between now and November to erase it, but Biden looked closer to dead than alive so I find it unlikely. This was fucking brutal - enough to make me worried about him not even making it until November.

I think its worth noting that Biden went into this debate with a cold.  Some people, ESPECIALLY when they're old, really show it when they are ill (hells bells, you should see what I look like every morning until I've been up for a while and had my morning coffee, lol.  Scary. )     

Our biggest hope is that there will be another debate and Biden will be in better shape and turn things around. 

Why didn’t they mention the cold that they now say he has been dealing with for days prior to the debate? Only 3 reasons…1) they are idiots 2) they thought it would look like an excuse and were hoping he would still slay 3) it’s a bullshit after the fact excuse for a corpse like performance 

He looked fine speaking at that event after the debate. It was likely an excuse. 

That is my belief. 

OnWis97

The field

The Juggler said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

Here’s my production. Within the next 4 weeks they announce a new candidate with Kamala still VP.
They’ll spend the next couple weeks deciding who it is and convincing Biden to drop out on his own and make it his decision. 

Zero chance this happens. Biden was the safe bet to begin with. This is not a party that takes risks, even to save themselves. 

Odds of it happening are now over 50% in my opinion.

I don't think so, barring a diagnosis of Alzheimer's or something physically terminal.

It would make the party look disorganized and desperate. I said in some thread that "If one of these candidates dies tomorrow, his party will win the election." I said that because I don't think anyone outside of the MAGA mob is particular excited at the prospect of either of these guys winning this election. I think the middle would vote for a younger fresher person in a heartbeat. (Though I'm not 100% sure because I don't think Harris would have a shot and who the GOP would bring forth is a wildcard).

That said, having Biden bow out now would, appropriately, be met with the reaction of "you should have done this a year ago; not when he stumbled around after the primaries."  Now the party would look every bit the clown-show it is. That all said, he looked so old that it doesn't likely help to keep him in. These debates don't typically matter but they way Joe looked yesterday, Trump may have just won.

It's very frustrating because if Biden would have said sometime in 2022 that it's time to retire I really don't think people would have been hard on him or the party. We get it, the Dems were in a rough spot in 2020 and they went with a name that could get them by the Orange Menace. But he looked old then and it's not getting better. Two years for the party to get a new candidate that's likely 30 years younger than these two guys would have worked wonders for the party and maybe had the non-cult 2/3 feeling a bit better.

brianlux

2023

cincybearcat said:

brianlux said:

benjs said:

The Juggler said:

Anyone else still think debates don't matter?

Absolute nightmare scenario is playing out. 

I regrettably eat my words, Juggler. I still hold out a tiny glimmer of hope that maybe there's enough time between now and November to erase it, but Biden looked closer to dead than alive so I find it unlikely. This was fucking brutal - enough to make me worried about him not even making it until November.

I think its worth noting that Biden went into this debate with a cold.  Some people, ESPECIALLY when they're old, really show it when they are ill (hells bells, you should see what I look like every morning until I've been up for a while and had my morning coffee, lol.  Scary. )     

Our biggest hope is that there will be another debate and Biden will be in better shape and turn things around. 

Why didn’t they mention the cold that they now say he has been dealing with for days prior to the debate? Only 3 reasons…1) they are idiots 2) they thought it would look like an excuse and were hoping he would still slay 3) it’s a bullshit after the fact excuse for a corpse like performance 

Yeah, sorry to say you may be right about that.  Utterly depressing how fucked up all this is.

pjhawks said:

mace1229 said:

Here’s my production. Within the next 4 weeks they announce a new candidate with Kamala still VP.
They’ll spend the next couple weeks deciding who it is and convincing Biden to drop out on his own and make it his decision. 

The Dems fucked this up royally and may have destroyed the country in the process. No way Biden should have been more than a 1 term President. That should have been the stance since 2020 election.  Now they either stay with a guy who has no chance of lasting 4 more years or replacing him 4 months before the general election. What a disaster. 

And who is the choice? Harris, Newsom, Buttigieg (my choice), Whitmer?   I also saw some mentions that their is a gray area in having a Presidential and Vice-Presidential candidate from the same state so if they choose Newsom they may have to replace Harris as well.  

Looking at Newsom's letter this morning, it look like he is standing by old Joe.  If someone is going to step in other than Biden, it has to happen mighty damn quick, but I'm not sure it would be Newsom.  Here's what he said this AM:

Folks, Listen.

I am old fashioned, but on the substance Joe Biden won the debate last night. That is what matters to me.

All this other talk... it's unhelpful and unnecessary. We aren't going to turn our backs because of one performance. What kind of party does that?

Don't look at 30 minutes... look at 3 and a half years of Joe Biden as president. It's been a master class: 15.6 million jobs created — 8x more than the last 3 Republican presidents combined; gun safety legislation; lowering the cost of prescription drugs; an infrastructure package to rebuild this country.

Joe Biden has delivered — and we need to deliver for him in this moment. We're talking about the fate and future of our democracy, this country and the world. They all need us right now.

mrussel1

mace1229 said:

Here’s my production. Within the next 4 weeks they announce a new candidate with Kamala still VP.
They’ll spend the next couple weeks deciding who it is and convincing Biden to drop out on his own and make it his decision. 

You can't announce a new candidate.  Biden would have to drop out and then the delegates decide at the convention. 

mrussel1

Here's where Harris would have a huge advantage.  Funds raised for Biden-Harris could be accessed by Harris as the top of the ticket.  This is not true for everyone else.  So she starts with a big cash advantage.  

Super -pacs cannot coordinate anyways,  so that money could go to the new candidate even if not Harris.  

Either way,  the committed delegates become un-committed if Biden drops and then we get a convention that will be fascinating.  It will be old school.