Ukraine

mrussel1

dignin said:

mrussel1 said:

dignin said:

Lerxst1992 said:

BF25394 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

War over yet? Weren’t we told Putin on the ritz was ready for a ceasefire because COOTWH was leading and happy days are here again? I’m confused because the peace president is bombing places.

Something that I heard repeated during the campaign, from both everyday voters and from at least one billionaire professional investor who backed Trump, was that, when Trump was president the first time, "there were no wars." One might generously allow that they meant that the U.S. was not involved in any wars but, of course, the U.S. was at war in Afghanistan for the entire length of Trump's first term (a war that ended under Biden, not Trump). This is not to mention the fact that the U.S. was involved militarily in Syria, Iran and various other countries from 2017 to 2021. This talking point was further detached from reality by the facts that there were numerous other wars going on around the world during that period, including in Yemen and Congo, to name two.

He may have been referring to wars either started or significantly influenced by the USA, for which Ukraine unfortunately qualifies.

Ukraine unfortunately qualifies?

How so?

Before the United States was invented by God, the Ukrainian people didn't have the concept of freedom and sovereignty, being just Little Rus.  After Jesus came down and anointed the Founding Fathers as deities, it set up the world for years of misery by letting them know that you didn't always have to be a peasant or a sharecropper.  That's on us.  The war is on us.  

I'm picking up what you're throwing down here.

Probably makes more sense than the answer I would have got (which was unsurprisingly not answered).

The likely answer, from the MAGA crowd, is that HRC (and the CIA) personally created the rebellion in 2014 against Yanukoyvich.  We definitely should blame her rather than Yanu who reneged on a deal with Parliament to sign the EU cooperation agreement.  Instead moving towards Putin.  Americans didn't pay attention to when this was happening, but this was the seeds of war.  It led to Revolution which led to the move West, which led to Putin aggression. 

Here's a contemporaneous article from late 2013 when it started to unfold, before the Revolution of Dignity.  

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25162563

BF25394

mrussel1 said:

dignin said:

mrussel1 said:

dignin said:

Lerxst1992 said:

BF25394 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

War over yet? Weren’t we told Putin on the ritz was ready for a ceasefire because COOTWH was leading and happy days are here again? I’m confused because the peace president is bombing places.

Something that I heard repeated during the campaign, from both everyday voters and from at least one billionaire professional investor who backed Trump, was that, when Trump was president the first time, "there were no wars." One might generously allow that they meant that the U.S. was not involved in any wars but, of course, the U.S. was at war in Afghanistan for the entire length of Trump's first term (a war that ended under Biden, not Trump). This is not to mention the fact that the U.S. was involved militarily in Syria, Iran and various other countries from 2017 to 2021. This talking point was further detached from reality by the facts that there were numerous other wars going on around the world during that period, including in Yemen and Congo, to name two.

He may have been referring to wars either started or significantly influenced by the USA, for which Ukraine unfortunately qualifies.

Ukraine unfortunately qualifies?

How so?

Before the United States was invented by God, the Ukrainian people didn't have the concept of freedom and sovereignty, being just Little Rus.  After Jesus came down and anointed the Founding Fathers as deities, it set up the world for years of misery by letting them know that you didn't always have to be a peasant or a sharecropper.  That's on us.  The war is on us.  

I'm picking up what you're throwing down here.

Probably makes more sense than the answer I would have got (which was unsurprisingly not answered).

The likely answer, from the MAGA crowd, is that HRC (and the CIA) personally created the rebellion in 2014 against Yanukoyvich.  We definitely should blame her rather than Yanu who reneged on a deal with Parliament to sign the EU cooperation agreement.  Instead moving towards Putin.  Americans didn't pay attention to when this was happening, but this was the seeds of war.  It led to Revolution which led to the move West, which led to Putin aggression. 

Here's a contemporaneous article from late 2013 when it started to unfold, before the Revolution of Dignity.  

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25162563

The MAGA crowd knows none of that history.

Lerxst1992

dignin said:

Lerxst1992 said:

BF25394 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

War over yet? Weren’t we told Putin on the ritz was ready for a ceasefire because COOTWH was leading and happy days are here again? I’m confused because the peace president is bombing places.

Something that I heard repeated during the campaign, from both everyday voters and from at least one billionaire professional investor who backed Trump, was that, when Trump was president the first time, "there were no wars." One might generously allow that they meant that the U.S. was not involved in any wars but, of course, the U.S. was at war in Afghanistan for the entire length of Trump's first term (a war that ended under Biden, not Trump). This is not to mention the fact that the U.S. was involved militarily in Syria, Iran and various other countries from 2017 to 2021. This talking point was further detached from reality by the facts that there were numerous other wars going on around the world during that period, including in Yemen and Congo, to name two.

He may have been referring to wars either started or significantly influenced by the USA, for which Ukraine unfortunately qualifies.

Ukraine unfortunately qualifies?

How so?

Kamala Harris 2022 before russia invasion :  "The United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO alliance."

mickeyrat

for months the biden admin as well as allies  were publically interpreting russian moves on the border, warning of invasion probability despite Russian protesting no it is just exercises......

so does this then mean we forced rusdia to invade?

laughable.

so the harris statement, on behalf of the admin, was telegraphing the understanding that russia wouldnt stop at ukraine.

in fact russian media figures regularly make statements or threats saying exactly that. you think those happen without approval or coordination with putin?

please

Lerxst1992

mickeyrat said:

for months the biden admin as well as allies  were publically interpreting russian moves on the border, warning of invasion probability despite Russian protesting no it is just exercises......

so does this then mean we forced rusdia to invade?

laughable.

so the harris statement, on behalf of the admin, was telegraphing the understanding that russia wouldnt stop at ukraine.

in fact russian media figures regularly make statements or threats saying exactly that. you think those happen without approval or coordination with putin?

please

She was equating the defense of Ukraine with the defense of NATO. Putin interpreted that obviously much different than you, and he controls a bigger army.

again…and again…as every point I seem to make…I am not supporting what Putin did, just pointing out US actions had significant influence. Makes a heck of a lot more sense than some fable about a sharecropper or whatever the heck Matt was talking about.

mrussel1

Lerxst1992 said:

dignin said:

Lerxst1992 said:

BF25394 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

War over yet? Weren’t we told Putin on the ritz was ready for a ceasefire because COOTWH was leading and happy days are here again? I’m confused because the peace president is bombing places.

Something that I heard repeated during the campaign, from both everyday voters and from at least one billionaire professional investor who backed Trump, was that, when Trump was president the first time, "there were no wars." One might generously allow that they meant that the U.S. was not involved in any wars but, of course, the U.S. was at war in Afghanistan for the entire length of Trump's first term (a war that ended under Biden, not Trump). This is not to mention the fact that the U.S. was involved militarily in Syria, Iran and various other countries from 2017 to 2021. This talking point was further detached from reality by the facts that there were numerous other wars going on around the world during that period, including in Yemen and Congo, to name two.

He may have been referring to wars either started or significantly influenced by the USA, for which Ukraine unfortunately qualifies.

Ukraine unfortunately qualifies?

How so?

Kamala Harris 2022 before russia invasion :  "The United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO alliance."

Are you being serious with this statement?

First, she said this in March of 2022, AFTER the invasion started.  Get your facts right when you're making declarations.   https://www.axios.com/2022/03/12/kamala-harris-unity-russian-invasion-ukraine

Second, let's play in your make-believe world where this statement came before the invasion.  You think had she not said this, Putin would not have invaded?  Is this a joke post?  Did someone steal your account?

BF25394

Lerxst1992 said:

dignin said:

Lerxst1992 said:

BF25394 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

War over yet? Weren’t we told Putin on the ritz was ready for a ceasefire because COOTWH was leading and happy days are here again? I’m confused because the peace president is bombing places.

Something that I heard repeated during the campaign, from both everyday voters and from at least one billionaire professional investor who backed Trump, was that, when Trump was president the first time, "there were no wars." One might generously allow that they meant that the U.S. was not involved in any wars but, of course, the U.S. was at war in Afghanistan for the entire length of Trump's first term (a war that ended under Biden, not Trump). This is not to mention the fact that the U.S. was involved militarily in Syria, Iran and various other countries from 2017 to 2021. This talking point was further detached from reality by the facts that there were numerous other wars going on around the world during that period, including in Yemen and Congo, to name two.

He may have been referring to wars either started or significantly influenced by the USA, for which Ukraine unfortunately qualifies.

Ukraine unfortunately qualifies?

How so?

Kamala Harris 2022 before russia invasion :  "The United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO alliance."

In addition to what others have said:

Russia did not begin its invasion of Ukraine in 2022. It began its invasion of Ukraine in 2014 when it illegally annexed Crimea.

mickeyrat

BF25394 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

dignin said:

Lerxst1992 said:

BF25394 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

War over yet? Weren’t we told Putin on the ritz was ready for a ceasefire because COOTWH was leading and happy days are here again? I’m confused because the peace president is bombing places.

Something that I heard repeated during the campaign, from both everyday voters and from at least one billionaire professional investor who backed Trump, was that, when Trump was president the first time, "there were no wars." One might generously allow that they meant that the U.S. was not involved in any wars but, of course, the U.S. was at war in Afghanistan for the entire length of Trump's first term (a war that ended under Biden, not Trump). This is not to mention the fact that the U.S. was involved militarily in Syria, Iran and various other countries from 2017 to 2021. This talking point was further detached from reality by the facts that there were numerous other wars going on around the world during that period, including in Yemen and Congo, to name two.

He may have been referring to wars either started or significantly influenced by the USA, for which Ukraine unfortunately qualifies.

Ukraine unfortunately qualifies?

How so?

Kamala Harris 2022 before russia invasion :  "The United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO alliance."

In addition to what others have said:

Russia did not begin its invasion of Ukraine in 2022. It began its invasion of Ukraine in 2014 when it illegally annexed Crimea.

very shortly after that when the "seperatists" went live. with help.

HughFreakingDillon

mrussel1 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

dignin said:

Lerxst1992 said:

BF25394 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

War over yet? Weren’t we told Putin on the ritz was ready for a ceasefire because COOTWH was leading and happy days are here again? I’m confused because the peace president is bombing places.

Something that I heard repeated during the campaign, from both everyday voters and from at least one billionaire professional investor who backed Trump, was that, when Trump was president the first time, "there were no wars." One might generously allow that they meant that the U.S. was not involved in any wars but, of course, the U.S. was at war in Afghanistan for the entire length of Trump's first term (a war that ended under Biden, not Trump). This is not to mention the fact that the U.S. was involved militarily in Syria, Iran and various other countries from 2017 to 2021. This talking point was further detached from reality by the facts that there were numerous other wars going on around the world during that period, including in Yemen and Congo, to name two.

He may have been referring to wars either started or significantly influenced by the USA, for which Ukraine unfortunately qualifies.

Ukraine unfortunately qualifies?

How so?

Kamala Harris 2022 before russia invasion :  "The United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO alliance."

Are you being serious with this statement?

First, she said this in March of 2022, AFTER the invasion started.  Get your facts right when you're making declarations.   https://www.axios.com/2022/03/12/kamala-harris-unity-russian-invasion-ukraine

Second, let's play in your make-believe world where this statement came before the invasion.  You think had she not said this, Putin would not have invaded?  Is this a joke post?  Did someone steal your account?

😂 I assume the explanation will be something how her statement reflected known sentiment prior to the invasion. 

You know…bullshit. 

Lerxst1992

mrussel1 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

dignin said:

Lerxst1992 said:

BF25394 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

War over yet? Weren’t we told Putin on the ritz was ready for a ceasefire because COOTWH was leading and happy days are here again? I’m confused because the peace president is bombing places.

Something that I heard repeated during the campaign, from both everyday voters and from at least one billionaire professional investor who backed Trump, was that, when Trump was president the first time, "there were no wars." One might generously allow that they meant that the U.S. was not involved in any wars but, of course, the U.S. was at war in Afghanistan for the entire length of Trump's first term (a war that ended under Biden, not Trump). This is not to mention the fact that the U.S. was involved militarily in Syria, Iran and various other countries from 2017 to 2021. This talking point was further detached from reality by the facts that there were numerous other wars going on around the world during that period, including in Yemen and Congo, to name two.

He may have been referring to wars either started or significantly influenced by the USA, for which Ukraine unfortunately qualifies.

Ukraine unfortunately qualifies?

How so?

Kamala Harris 2022 before russia invasion :  "The United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO alliance."

Are you being serious with this statement?

First, she said this in March of 2022, AFTER the invasion started.  Get your facts right when you're making declarations.   https://www.axios.com/2022/03/12/kamala-harris-unity-russian-invasion-ukraine

Second, let's play in your make-believe world where this statement came before the invasion.  You think had she not said this, Putin would not have invaded?  Is this a joke post?  Did someone steal your account?

Feb 20 2022

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Let me start by saying I appreciate and admire President Zelenskyy's desire to join NATO. And one of, again, the founding principles of NATO is that each country must have the ability -- unimpaired, unimpeded -- to determine their own future, both in terms of their form of government and, in this case, whether they desire to be a member of NATO.

Lerxst1992

BF25394 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

dignin said:

Lerxst1992 said:

BF25394 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

War over yet? Weren’t we told Putin on the ritz was ready for a ceasefire because COOTWH was leading and happy days are here again? I’m confused because the peace president is bombing places.

Something that I heard repeated during the campaign, from both everyday voters and from at least one billionaire professional investor who backed Trump, was that, when Trump was president the first time, "there were no wars." One might generously allow that they meant that the U.S. was not involved in any wars but, of course, the U.S. was at war in Afghanistan for the entire length of Trump's first term (a war that ended under Biden, not Trump). This is not to mention the fact that the U.S. was involved militarily in Syria, Iran and various other countries from 2017 to 2021. This talking point was further detached from reality by the facts that there were numerous other wars going on around the world during that period, including in Yemen and Congo, to name two.

He may have been referring to wars either started or significantly influenced by the USA, for which Ukraine unfortunately qualifies.

Ukraine unfortunately qualifies?

How so?

Kamala Harris 2022 before russia invasion :  "The United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO alliance."

In addition to what others have said:

Russia did not begin its invasion of Ukraine in 2022. It began its invasion of Ukraine in 2014 when it illegally annexed Crimea.

Again. Not saying I support this but the media you believe to be balanced may not be so balanced. If you want to simultaneously claim nato and the Biden administration was not significantly influential in the 2022 Russia invasion, while failing to point out why there was no (/minimal Ukraine military) opposition in 2014 crimea. From wiki, for fun:

Polling prior to Russian occupation

Polling in 2008 by the Ukrainian Centre for Economic and Political Studies, also called the Razumkov Centre, found that a majority of Crimeans simultaneously approved the idea of joining Russia (63.8%), while also supporting the idea of remaining within Ukraine if Crimea was given greater autonomy (53.8%).

 

mrussel1

Lerxst1992 said:

mrussel1 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

dignin said:

Lerxst1992 said:

BF25394 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

War over yet? Weren’t we told Putin on the ritz was ready for a ceasefire because COOTWH was leading and happy days are here again? I’m confused because the peace president is bombing places.

Something that I heard repeated during the campaign, from both everyday voters and from at least one billionaire professional investor who backed Trump, was that, when Trump was president the first time, "there were no wars." One might generously allow that they meant that the U.S. was not involved in any wars but, of course, the U.S. was at war in Afghanistan for the entire length of Trump's first term (a war that ended under Biden, not Trump). This is not to mention the fact that the U.S. was involved militarily in Syria, Iran and various other countries from 2017 to 2021. This talking point was further detached from reality by the facts that there were numerous other wars going on around the world during that period, including in Yemen and Congo, to name two.

He may have been referring to wars either started or significantly influenced by the USA, for which Ukraine unfortunately qualifies.

Ukraine unfortunately qualifies?

How so?

Kamala Harris 2022 before russia invasion :  "The United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO alliance."

Are you being serious with this statement?

First, she said this in March of 2022, AFTER the invasion started.  Get your facts right when you're making declarations.   https://www.axios.com/2022/03/12/kamala-harris-unity-russian-invasion-ukraine

Second, let's play in your make-believe world where this statement came before the invasion.  You think had she not said this, Putin would not have invaded?  Is this a joke post?  Did someone steal your account?

Feb 20 2022

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Let me start by saying I appreciate and admire President Zelenskyy's desire to join NATO. And one of, again, the founding principles of NATO is that each country must have the ability -- unimpaired, unimpeded -- to determine their own future, both in terms of their form of government and, in this case, whether they desire to be a member of NATO.

That is not the quote you referenced.  Get your facts right.  Your point is absurd anyways.  Do you know what was happening in 2014 during the Crimean invasion?  The Ukraine gov't was unstable because they overthrew their corrupt leader Yanukoyvich.  The country was transitioning to a western oriented democracy and were unable to muster a defense of Crimea and Putin took advantage of it.  Sure, it's Harris's fault that Russia, which had been threatening its neighbors and had already conducted brutal military campaigns in Georgia and Chechnya, attacked Ukraine.  A country that Russia has long believed belongs to them.  It's our fault.  WTF happened to you?

Lerxst1992

mrussel1 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

mrussel1 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

dignin said:

Lerxst1992 said:

BF25394 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

War over yet? Weren’t we told Putin on the ritz was ready for a ceasefire because COOTWH was leading and happy days are here again? I’m confused because the peace president is bombing places.

Something that I heard repeated during the campaign, from both everyday voters and from at least one billionaire professional investor who backed Trump, was that, when Trump was president the first time, "there were no wars." One might generously allow that they meant that the U.S. was not involved in any wars but, of course, the U.S. was at war in Afghanistan for the entire length of Trump's first term (a war that ended under Biden, not Trump). This is not to mention the fact that the U.S. was involved militarily in Syria, Iran and various other countries from 2017 to 2021. This talking point was further detached from reality by the facts that there were numerous other wars going on around the world during that period, including in Yemen and Congo, to name two.

He may have been referring to wars either started or significantly influenced by the USA, for which Ukraine unfortunately qualifies.

Ukraine unfortunately qualifies?

How so?

Kamala Harris 2022 before russia invasion :  "The United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO alliance."

Are you being serious with this statement?

First, she said this in March of 2022, AFTER the invasion started.  Get your facts right when you're making declarations.   https://www.axios.com/2022/03/12/kamala-harris-unity-russian-invasion-ukraine

Second, let's play in your make-believe world where this statement came before the invasion.  You think had she not said this, Putin would not have invaded?  Is this a joke post?  Did someone steal your account?

Feb 20 2022

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Let me start by saying I appreciate and admire President Zelenskyy's desire to join NATO. And one of, again, the founding principles of NATO is that each country must have the ability -- unimpaired, unimpeded -- to determine their own future, both in terms of their form of government and, in this case, whether they desire to be a member of NATO.

That is not the quote you referenced.  Get your facts right.  Your point is absurd anyways.  Do you know what was happening in 2014 during the Crimean invasion?  The Ukraine gov't was unstable because they overthrew their corrupt leader Yanukoyvich.  The country was transitioning to a western oriented democracy and were unable to muster a defense of Crimea and Putin took advantage of it.  Sure, it's Harris's fault that Russia, which had been threatening its neighbors and had already conducted brutal military campaigns in Georgia and Chechnya, attacked Ukraine.  A country that Russia has long believed belongs to them.  It's our fault.  WTF happened to you?

The intital tweet posted by Harris was made, edited and removed several times. Her comments to reporters posted above were four days before the Russian invasion, and since she spoke openly to reporters she was unable to retract.

The US did not have significant influence in Putins decision to invade? The Biden administration and nato leadership did not make it clear they welcomed Ukraine into nato for many years? The US did not have a role in the removal of Yanukoyvich?

Again, I disagree with Putins aggression. However my only point here is the US had a big influence in how the 2022 invasion transpired.

mrussel1

Lerxst1992 said:

mrussel1 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

mrussel1 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

dignin said:

Lerxst1992 said:

BF25394 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

War over yet? Weren’t we told Putin on the ritz was ready for a ceasefire because COOTWH was leading and happy days are here again? I’m confused because the peace president is bombing places.

Something that I heard repeated during the campaign, from both everyday voters and from at least one billionaire professional investor who backed Trump, was that, when Trump was president the first time, "there were no wars." One might generously allow that they meant that the U.S. was not involved in any wars but, of course, the U.S. was at war in Afghanistan for the entire length of Trump's first term (a war that ended under Biden, not Trump). This is not to mention the fact that the U.S. was involved militarily in Syria, Iran and various other countries from 2017 to 2021. This talking point was further detached from reality by the facts that there were numerous other wars going on around the world during that period, including in Yemen and Congo, to name two.

He may have been referring to wars either started or significantly influenced by the USA, for which Ukraine unfortunately qualifies.

Ukraine unfortunately qualifies?

How so?

Kamala Harris 2022 before russia invasion :  "The United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO alliance."

Are you being serious with this statement?

First, she said this in March of 2022, AFTER the invasion started.  Get your facts right when you're making declarations.   https://www.axios.com/2022/03/12/kamala-harris-unity-russian-invasion-ukraine

Second, let's play in your make-believe world where this statement came before the invasion.  You think had she not said this, Putin would not have invaded?  Is this a joke post?  Did someone steal your account?

Feb 20 2022

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Let me start by saying I appreciate and admire President Zelenskyy's desire to join NATO. And one of, again, the founding principles of NATO is that each country must have the ability -- unimpaired, unimpeded -- to determine their own future, both in terms of their form of government and, in this case, whether they desire to be a member of NATO.

That is not the quote you referenced.  Get your facts right.  Your point is absurd anyways.  Do you know what was happening in 2014 during the Crimean invasion?  The Ukraine gov't was unstable because they overthrew their corrupt leader Yanukoyvich.  The country was transitioning to a western oriented democracy and were unable to muster a defense of Crimea and Putin took advantage of it.  Sure, it's Harris's fault that Russia, which had been threatening its neighbors and had already conducted brutal military campaigns in Georgia and Chechnya, attacked Ukraine.  A country that Russia has long believed belongs to them.  It's our fault.  WTF happened to you?

The intital tweet posted by Harris was made, edited and removed several times. Her comments to reporters posted above were four days before the Russian invasion, and since she spoke openly to reporters she was unable to retract.

The US did not have significant influence in Putins decision to invade? The Biden administration and nato leadership did not make it clear they welcomed Ukraine into nato for many years? The US did not have a role in the removal of Yanukoyvich?

Again, I disagree with Putins aggression. However my only point here is the US had a big influence in how the 2022 invasion transpired.

that's really sweet that you 'disagree' with Putin's war crimes and killing of innocent Ukrainians.  That's great comfort to everyone that you find it disagreeable.  It's good to see your moral compass so aligned.  But now you are moving the needle to "HOW the 2022 invasion transpired", ignoring the Crimean invasion and arming of separatists across the Eastern oblasts for the last decade.  

Certainly fear of NATO has some effect, but that's window dressing to Putin's long-term strategy.  If you ever really studied Rus history and the relationship between Ukrainians and Russians, you would know that this has been a looming threat as Ukraine has been oppressed by Russians for hundreds of years.  Holodomor.  

Next, let's talk about how the US freezing of Japanese assets in 1940 was the cause of Pearl Harbor and that the Pacific Theater was our fault.  That has more credibility than you quoting Harris from February, after Crimea, after the buildup of forces on the border.  

Halifax2TheMax

Has NATO ever invaded a sovereign country?

Lerxst1992

mrussel1 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

mrussel1 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

mrussel1 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

dignin said:

Lerxst1992 said:

BF25394 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

War over yet? Weren’t we told Putin on the ritz was ready for a ceasefire because COOTWH was leading and happy days are here again? I’m confused because the peace president is bombing places.

Something that I heard repeated during the campaign, from both everyday voters and from at least one billionaire professional investor who backed Trump, was that, when Trump was president the first time, "there were no wars." One might generously allow that they meant that the U.S. was not involved in any wars but, of course, the U.S. was at war in Afghanistan for the entire length of Trump's first term (a war that ended under Biden, not Trump). This is not to mention the fact that the U.S. was involved militarily in Syria, Iran and various other countries from 2017 to 2021. This talking point was further detached from reality by the facts that there were numerous other wars going on around the world during that period, including in Yemen and Congo, to name two.

He may have been referring to wars either started or significantly influenced by the USA, for which Ukraine unfortunately qualifies.

Ukraine unfortunately qualifies?

How so?

Kamala Harris 2022 before russia invasion :  "The United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO alliance."

Are you being serious with this statement?

First, she said this in March of 2022, AFTER the invasion started.  Get your facts right when you're making declarations.   https://www.axios.com/2022/03/12/kamala-harris-unity-russian-invasion-ukraine

Second, let's play in your make-believe world where this statement came before the invasion.  You think had she not said this, Putin would not have invaded?  Is this a joke post?  Did someone steal your account?

Feb 20 2022

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Let me start by saying I appreciate and admire President Zelenskyy's desire to join NATO. And one of, again, the founding principles of NATO is that each country must have the ability -- unimpaired, unimpeded -- to determine their own future, both in terms of their form of government and, in this case, whether they desire to be a member of NATO.

That is not the quote you referenced.  Get your facts right.  Your point is absurd anyways.  Do you know what was happening in 2014 during the Crimean invasion?  The Ukraine gov't was unstable because they overthrew their corrupt leader Yanukoyvich.  The country was transitioning to a western oriented democracy and were unable to muster a defense of Crimea and Putin took advantage of it.  Sure, it's Harris's fault that Russia, which had been threatening its neighbors and had already conducted brutal military campaigns in Georgia and Chechnya, attacked Ukraine.  A country that Russia has long believed belongs to them.  It's our fault.  WTF happened to you?

The intital tweet posted by Harris was made, edited and removed several times. Her comments to reporters posted above were four days before the Russian invasion, and since she spoke openly to reporters she was unable to retract.

The US did not have significant influence in Putins decision to invade? The Biden administration and nato leadership did not make it clear they welcomed Ukraine into nato for many years? The US did not have a role in the removal of Yanukoyvich?

Again, I disagree with Putins aggression. However my only point here is the US had a big influence in how the 2022 invasion transpired.

that's really sweet that you 'disagree' with Putin's war crimes and killing of innocent Ukrainians.  That's great comfort to everyone that you find it disagreeable.  It's good to see your moral compass so aligned.  But now you are moving the needle to "HOW the 2022 invasion transpired", ignoring the Crimean invasion and arming of separatists across the Eastern oblasts for the last decade.  

Certainly fear of NATO has some effect, but that's window dressing to Putin's long-term strategy.  If you ever really studied Rus history and the relationship between Ukrainians and Russians, you would know that this has been a looming threat as Ukraine has been oppressed by Russians for hundreds of years.  Holodomor.  

Next, let's talk about how the US freezing of Japanese assets in 1940 was the cause of Pearl Harbor and that the Pacific Theater was our fault.  That has more credibility than you quoting Harris from February, after Crimea, after the buildup of forces on the border.  

My original point was only that the US had influence in the events that led to Russia's invasion. The “moving needle” part are responses to whataboutisms posted by others. Not only did Harris and Biden and NATO leadership make many comments that could be interpreted as threatening to Russia in 2021 and early 2022, Biden issued three EOs in 2021 threatening Russia. Maybe Russia deserved it, but there are various ways to avoid bloodshed. And the Biden administration picked its choice.

Halifax2TheMax

Speaking of which, is the war over yet?

mrussel1

Lerxst1992 said:

mrussel1 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

mrussel1 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

mrussel1 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

dignin said:

Lerxst1992 said:

BF25394 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

War over yet? Weren’t we told Putin on the ritz was ready for a ceasefire because COOTWH was leading and happy days are here again? I’m confused because the peace president is bombing places.

Something that I heard repeated during the campaign, from both everyday voters and from at least one billionaire professional investor who backed Trump, was that, when Trump was president the first time, "there were no wars." One might generously allow that they meant that the U.S. was not involved in any wars but, of course, the U.S. was at war in Afghanistan for the entire length of Trump's first term (a war that ended under Biden, not Trump). This is not to mention the fact that the U.S. was involved militarily in Syria, Iran and various other countries from 2017 to 2021. This talking point was further detached from reality by the facts that there were numerous other wars going on around the world during that period, including in Yemen and Congo, to name two.

He may have been referring to wars either started or significantly influenced by the USA, for which Ukraine unfortunately qualifies.

Ukraine unfortunately qualifies?

How so?

Kamala Harris 2022 before russia invasion :  "The United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO alliance."

Are you being serious with this statement?

First, she said this in March of 2022, AFTER the invasion started.  Get your facts right when you're making declarations.   https://www.axios.com/2022/03/12/kamala-harris-unity-russian-invasion-ukraine

Second, let's play in your make-believe world where this statement came before the invasion.  You think had she not said this, Putin would not have invaded?  Is this a joke post?  Did someone steal your account?

Feb 20 2022

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Let me start by saying I appreciate and admire President Zelenskyy's desire to join NATO. And one of, again, the founding principles of NATO is that each country must have the ability -- unimpaired, unimpeded -- to determine their own future, both in terms of their form of government and, in this case, whether they desire to be a member of NATO.

That is not the quote you referenced.  Get your facts right.  Your point is absurd anyways.  Do you know what was happening in 2014 during the Crimean invasion?  The Ukraine gov't was unstable because they overthrew their corrupt leader Yanukoyvich.  The country was transitioning to a western oriented democracy and were unable to muster a defense of Crimea and Putin took advantage of it.  Sure, it's Harris's fault that Russia, which had been threatening its neighbors and had already conducted brutal military campaigns in Georgia and Chechnya, attacked Ukraine.  A country that Russia has long believed belongs to them.  It's our fault.  WTF happened to you?

The intital tweet posted by Harris was made, edited and removed several times. Her comments to reporters posted above were four days before the Russian invasion, and since she spoke openly to reporters she was unable to retract.

The US did not have significant influence in Putins decision to invade? The Biden administration and nato leadership did not make it clear they welcomed Ukraine into nato for many years? The US did not have a role in the removal of Yanukoyvich?

Again, I disagree with Putins aggression. However my only point here is the US had a big influence in how the 2022 invasion transpired.

that's really sweet that you 'disagree' with Putin's war crimes and killing of innocent Ukrainians.  That's great comfort to everyone that you find it disagreeable.  It's good to see your moral compass so aligned.  But now you are moving the needle to "HOW the 2022 invasion transpired", ignoring the Crimean invasion and arming of separatists across the Eastern oblasts for the last decade.  

Certainly fear of NATO has some effect, but that's window dressing to Putin's long-term strategy.  If you ever really studied Rus history and the relationship between Ukrainians and Russians, you would know that this has been a looming threat as Ukraine has been oppressed by Russians for hundreds of years.  Holodomor.  

Next, let's talk about how the US freezing of Japanese assets in 1940 was the cause of Pearl Harbor and that the Pacific Theater was our fault.  That has more credibility than you quoting Harris from February, after Crimea, after the buildup of forces on the border.  

My original point was only that the US had influence in the events that led to Russia's invasion. The “moving needle” part are responses to whataboutisms posted by others. Not only did Harris and Biden and NATO leadership make many comments that could be interpreted as threatening to Russia in 2021 and early 2022, Biden issued three EOs in 2021 threatening Russia. Maybe Russia deserved it, but there are various ways to avoid bloodshed. And the Biden administration picked its choice.

So Ukraine says they would like to join NATO and you think the right position would have been to publicly refuse to allow them to do so, rather than keep the door open.  And you think that would have stopped Putin from invading?  If this is your perspective, you are as naive as Trump.  

mickeyrat

so if the goal was avoidance of nato on its borders, he did a bang up fucking job.

Hi Finland!!!!

huh, seems they share a much longer border than does ukraine. gasp, what to do?

Lerxst1992

mrussel1 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

mrussel1 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

mrussel1 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

mrussel1 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

dignin said:

Lerxst1992 said:

BF25394 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

War over yet? Weren’t we told Putin on the ritz was ready for a ceasefire because COOTWH was leading and happy days are here again? I’m confused because the peace president is bombing places.

Something that I heard repeated during the campaign, from both everyday voters and from at least one billionaire professional investor who backed Trump, was that, when Trump was president the first time, "there were no wars." One might generously allow that they meant that the U.S. was not involved in any wars but, of course, the U.S. was at war in Afghanistan for the entire length of Trump's first term (a war that ended under Biden, not Trump). This is not to mention the fact that the U.S. was involved militarily in Syria, Iran and various other countries from 2017 to 2021. This talking point was further detached from reality by the facts that there were numerous other wars going on around the world during that period, including in Yemen and Congo, to name two.

He may have been referring to wars either started or significantly influenced by the USA, for which Ukraine unfortunately qualifies.

Ukraine unfortunately qualifies?

How so?

Kamala Harris 2022 before russia invasion :  "The United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO alliance."

Are you being serious with this statement?

First, she said this in March of 2022, AFTER the invasion started.  Get your facts right when you're making declarations.   https://www.axios.com/2022/03/12/kamala-harris-unity-russian-invasion-ukraine

Second, let's play in your make-believe world where this statement came before the invasion.  You think had she not said this, Putin would not have invaded?  Is this a joke post?  Did someone steal your account?

Feb 20 2022

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Let me start by saying I appreciate and admire President Zelenskyy's desire to join NATO. And one of, again, the founding principles of NATO is that each country must have the ability -- unimpaired, unimpeded -- to determine their own future, both in terms of their form of government and, in this case, whether they desire to be a member of NATO.

That is not the quote you referenced.  Get your facts right.  Your point is absurd anyways.  Do you know what was happening in 2014 during the Crimean invasion?  The Ukraine gov't was unstable because they overthrew their corrupt leader Yanukoyvich.  The country was transitioning to a western oriented democracy and were unable to muster a defense of Crimea and Putin took advantage of it.  Sure, it's Harris's fault that Russia, which had been threatening its neighbors and had already conducted brutal military campaigns in Georgia and Chechnya, attacked Ukraine.  A country that Russia has long believed belongs to them.  It's our fault.  WTF happened to you?

The intital tweet posted by Harris was made, edited and removed several times. Her comments to reporters posted above were four days before the Russian invasion, and since she spoke openly to reporters she was unable to retract.

The US did not have significant influence in Putins decision to invade? The Biden administration and nato leadership did not make it clear they welcomed Ukraine into nato for many years? The US did not have a role in the removal of Yanukoyvich?

Again, I disagree with Putins aggression. However my only point here is the US had a big influence in how the 2022 invasion transpired.

that's really sweet that you 'disagree' with Putin's war crimes and killing of innocent Ukrainians.  That's great comfort to everyone that you find it disagreeable.  It's good to see your moral compass so aligned.  But now you are moving the needle to "HOW the 2022 invasion transpired", ignoring the Crimean invasion and arming of separatists across the Eastern oblasts for the last decade.  

Certainly fear of NATO has some effect, but that's window dressing to Putin's long-term strategy.  If you ever really studied Rus history and the relationship between Ukrainians and Russians, you would know that this has been a looming threat as Ukraine has been oppressed by Russians for hundreds of years.  Holodomor.  

Next, let's talk about how the US freezing of Japanese assets in 1940 was the cause of Pearl Harbor and that the Pacific Theater was our fault.  That has more credibility than you quoting Harris from February, after Crimea, after the buildup of forces on the border.  

My original point was only that the US had influence in the events that led to Russia's invasion. The “moving needle” part are responses to whataboutisms posted by others. Not only did Harris and Biden and NATO leadership make many comments that could be interpreted as threatening to Russia in 2021 and early 2022, Biden issued three EOs in 2021 threatening Russia. Maybe Russia deserved it, but there are various ways to avoid bloodshed. And the Biden administration picked its choice.

So Ukraine says they would like to join NATO and you think the right position would have been to publicly refuse to allow them to do so, rather than keep the door open.  And you think that would have stopped Putin from invading?  If this is your perspective, you are as naive as Trump.  

Choosing that course of action, as much as I’d love the result, believing that could provoke a Russian invasion, would temper my belief of right and wrong. There’s good reason not even Biden went that far.

If it is I who is naive, and the author of whataboutisms, as much as I disagree with their aggressions, are Russia and Chinas desire for territory for protection of its respective homelands all that different to US actions that achieved that result over the past several decades?

My point is, dem communication to the public and media, is very one sided. So much so we lose general elections that we should win. Dems repeatedly are unable to identify the issues that will shape an election, and when they are identified for them, have no idea how to argue them successfully .

Because when we exist in our echo chamber, it only takes a tiny little fact to make us look like the purveyors of fake news. Obviously I don’t fully agree with that, but trump has been able to prove it true many times.