Better coach? Belichick or Saban?

Wobbie
Wobbie Posts: 31,663
in All Encompassing Trip
Can a pro coach and a college coach even be compared? My first inclination was to go with Saban, but he doesn’t deal with a salary cap. His talent is damn near always better than that of his opponent. Then again, Belichick’s players don’t have to make any pretense of being anything other than a football player (i.e. “student”). But Saban’s players don’t have stupid money to get into stupid trouble.  No matter how sorry the opponent (e.g. Jets) the Patriots are always playing other professionals. Kids who play for Saban, want to play for Saban. Not always the case with Bill. What other pros and cons figure in?

I really can’t convince myself either way....I was gonna go Belichick but his team was shit this season....but he had no talent. I can’t decide, either way.
If I had known then what I know now...

Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
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EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
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Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Philly I & II, 16
Denver 22
Missoula 24
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Comments

  • pjhawks
    pjhawks Posts: 13,082
    Can't be compared.   And I remind you Belichick has a losing record pre and post Brady.  
  • F Me In The Brain
    F Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,969
    Tough one.
    Both asshole people but I would pick BB as I think coaching in the NFL is harder.

    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • MayDay10
    MayDay10 Posts: 11,900
    I agree with it can't be compared
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 45,356
    I dont know that saban has ever cheated so...
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  • F Me In The Brain
    F Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,969
    edited January 2021
    Jimmy Johnson and Pete Carroll.
    I don't count Barry Switzer since his NFL title was only from carrying Jimmy's team for a run.

    Those guys won it on both levels and built teams on both levels.
    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • Wobbie
    Wobbie Posts: 31,663
    F Me In The Brain said:
    Jimmy Johnson and Pete Carroll.
    I don't count Barry Switzer since his NFL title was only from carrying Jimmy's team for a run.

    Those guys won it on both levels and built teams on both levels.

    jimmy johnson WAS good. he put up with no shit. didn’t win with miami, tho.
    If I had known then what I know now...

    Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
    VIC 07
    EV LA1 08
    Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
    Columbus 10
    EV LA 11
    Vancouver 11
    Missoula 12
    Portland 13, Spokane 13
    St. Paul 14, Denver 14
    Philly I & II, 16
    Denver 22
    Missoula 24
  • F Me In The Brain
    F Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,969
    edited January 2021
    Bb didn't win with Browns.  Saban didn't win with Spartans nor Dolphins.  

    JJ won in Miami.
    Caines not Phins.  Lost one title game and won the next year 
    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • Wobbie
    Wobbie Posts: 31,663
    yeah, F’me, I meant Fins.
    If I had known then what I know now...

    Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
    VIC 07
    EV LA1 08
    Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
    Columbus 10
    EV LA 11
    Vancouver 11
    Missoula 12
    Portland 13, Spokane 13
    St. Paul 14, Denver 14
    Philly I & II, 16
    Denver 22
    Missoula 24
  • MayDay10
    MayDay10 Posts: 11,900
    I believe it is much easier to leverage a top college program and build it to a position of perpetual strength than it is to manage a group of adult millionaires.  These guys are kings over their program, and the student athletes have zero leverage over their coach.  

    Schematically as a pure coach, I would take Belichick.  
  • tempo_n_groove
    tempo_n_groove Posts: 41,990
    Y'all forget where Belichick comes from.

    Bill Parcells.
  • F Me In The Brain
    F Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,969
    tempo_n_groove said:
    Y'all forget where Belichick comes from.

    Bill Parcells.

    Not really.  He passed Parcells years ago.  Parcells was a top flight coach, to be sure.  Parcells had a way and it burned out the players.  It was good but once he got stuck on his way it had a shelf life. 
    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • tempo_n_groove
    tempo_n_groove Posts: 41,990
    F Me In The Brain said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    Y'all forget where Belichick comes from.

    Bill Parcells.

    Not really.  He passed Parcells years ago.  Parcells was a top flight coach, to be sure.  Parcells had a way and it burned out the players.  It was good but once he got stuck on his way it had a shelf life. 
    He excelled wherever he went as a coach maybe Dallas is a stretch?.  All of his coaches became NFL coaches and some even good at it.

    6 degrees of Parcells!
  • Poncier
    Poncier Posts: 18,107
    The simple answer about the 2 Bills:

    Parcells never won a title without Belichick
    Belichick won 6 titles without Parcells
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • Poncier
    Poncier Posts: 18,107
    Lets remember that the Giants SB victory over the Bills had a lot to do with D Coordinator Belichick's game plan.

    Super Bowl XXV - Wikipedia

    The defensive game plan for the Giants, written by then-defensive coordinator Bill Belichick, has been included in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • pjhawks
    pjhawks Posts: 13,082
    edited January 2021
    Poncier said:
    The simple answer about the 2 Bills:

    Parcells never won a title without Belichick
    Belichick won 6 titles without Parcells
    and Belichick never won a title without Tom Brady and has a losing record pre and post Brady.  We shall see how Belichick's career ends up Post Brady.  I would rank Belichick above Parcells for sure though. 
    Post edited by pjhawks on
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 43,305
    pjhawks said:
    Poncier said:
    The simple answer about the 2 Bills:

    Parcells never won a title without Belichick
    Belichick won 6 titles without Parcells
    and Belichick never won a title without Tom Brady and has a losing record pre and post Brady.  We shall see how Belichick's career ends up Post Brady.  I would rank Belichick above Parcells for sure though. 
    But he went 11-5 Without TB12 and missed the playoffs because NFL.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR; 05/03/2025, New Orleans, LA;

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  • pjhawks
    pjhawks Posts: 13,082
    edited January 2021
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    pjhawks said:
    Poncier said:
    The simple answer about the 2 Bills:

    Parcells never won a title without Belichick
    Belichick won 6 titles without Parcells
    and Belichick never won a title without Tom Brady and has a losing record pre and post Brady.  We shall see how Belichick's career ends up Post Brady.  I would rank Belichick above Parcells for sure though. 
    But he went 11-5 Without TB12 and missed the playoffs because NFL.
    1x.  Combined record Pre-Brady and Post-Brady he has a losing record.  Do you think Phil Jackson is the best NBA coach because he coached Jordan, Kobe and Shaq?
    Post edited by pjhawks on
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 43,305
    pjhawks said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    pjhawks said:
    Poncier said:
    The simple answer about the 2 Bills:

    Parcells never won a title without Belichick
    Belichick won 6 titles without Parcells
    and Belichick never won a title without Tom Brady and has a losing record pre and post Brady.  We shall see how Belichick's career ends up Post Brady.  I would rank Belichick above Parcells for sure though. 
    But he went 11-5 Without TB12 and missed the playoffs because NFL.
    1x.  Combined record Pre-Brady and Post-Brady he has a losing record.  Do you think Phil Jackson is the best NBA coach because he coached Jordan, Kobe and Shaq?
    I don't follow the NBA and could care less. You're whole premise seems to be that without TB12, Belichick can't be successful. And yet he was. What were the rosters or organizations like that he worked for pre/post TB12? Cleveland? And one year with Cleveland, he went 11-5 and made the playoffs, going 1-1. Sure, he can't win without TB12. First season post TB12 is covid addled. Think he surpasses Shula's all time wins? Think he gets back in the playoffs/superb owl? Oh, and he went 3-1 with Garappolo/Brissett under center, no TB12. Sure, can't win without TB12.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR; 05/03/2025, New Orleans, LA;

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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 43,305
    And last time I checked, 14-6, without TB12, exclusive of covid, is a winning record. And even so with it, 21-15. Sure, can't win without TB12. Think if Bill 8 Times was with Cleveland this year that they'd be where they are?
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR; 05/03/2025, New Orleans, LA;

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  • Poncier
    Poncier Posts: 18,107
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    And last time I checked, 14-6, without TB12, exclusive of covid, is a winning record. And even so with it, 21-15. Sure, can't win without TB12. Think if Bill 8 Times was with Cleveland this year that they'd be where they are?
    You're overlooking his first year in NE when he was 5-11, and the 0-2 start in 2001 with Bledsoe before Mo Lewis attacked.
    That makes him 26-28 as pats coach without Brady (actually 25-28 as Brady started the first game of 2008 which they won)
    And he was 36-44 in Cleveland.
    So without Tom Brady as his starter he is 61-72. with Brady he is 219-64. 
    Brady makes a difference. 
    I subscribe to the theory that it was both, not either one, but we will see going forward to what level Bill can get the Pats with other QBs.
    This weekend we rock Portland

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